The coverup regarding the fate of Challenger astronauts

reply to post by touchdowntrojans


The article explains it all. NASA said from the start that the astronauts perished in the explosion. When a bit later it became apparent that the crew were alive all the way down and probably even conscious, NASA didn't want to upset the relatives, didn't want ripples in the water, didn't want to be accused to being responsible for horrible suffering of the crew. So they kept secret most details about the recovery, and even removed a big part of the crew cabin from display when there were visitors.

reply to post by wildespace


But let us be clear. No one knows how long any/some/all of them were alive after the failure. So, it is wrong (unfounded) for the article to claim they were alive "all the way down".

Originally posted by wildespace
reply to post by touchdowntrojans

 

The article explains it all. NASA said from the start that the astronauts perished in the explosion. When a bit later it became apparent that the crew were alive all the way down and probably even conscious, NASA didn't want to upset the relatives, didn't want ripples in the water, didn't want to be accused to being responsible for horrible suffering of the crew. So they kept secret most details about the recovery, and even removed a big part of the crew cabin from display when there were visitors.

All major media jumped to that conclusion. A different view only 'became apparent' when NASA's own report raised the possibility [wow, some coverup!]. Relatives were already upset.

And what's this fantasy about removing a big part of the crew cabin? I have no idea what you're referring to.

Originally posted by WhoDat09
Maybe a summary of that page

I went there and that's a lot of reading! I wouldn't mind reading what it says I'd just like a small summary of it here to know whether I would read it ..... or not.

Don't bother nothing new.

reply to post by Valhall


They were alive long enough for the pilot to be attempting to restore power to the crew cabin. That can take a little bit of time, so we can assume from that they were alive most of the way to impact. Personally, I believe that they were alive all the way down.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by Valhall

 

They were alive long enough for the pilot to be attempting to restore power to the crew cabin. That can take a little bit of time, so we can assume from that they were alive most of the way to impact. Personally, I believe that they were alive all the way down.

"Quite a bit of time"?? I suspect you're just making that up, and have never sat in a shuttle cockpit simulator. A few switch throws on the fuel cell buses can be done in 4-5 seconds. By then the total power loss would have been horrifying proof the cabin had detached from the power supply.

I agree, it's safe to assume the crew was not killed on the initial breakup -- NASA analysis, never secret, agrees with that. Their level of consciousness as the cabin vented to near-vacuum remains unknown, and unknowable.

reply to post by JimOberg


I said "a little bit of time", not "quite a bit of time". It's not a matter of just randomly throwing switches, you have to throw the right switches in the right order. A shuttle is similar to an aircraft, and I know how to start an aircraft. You have to throw the switches in a certain order, which means you are looking at a 45 seconds to a minute or so trying to restore power on one attempt. There was enough time for him to try it more than once before the cabin hit the water. They had almost three minutes from break up to impact.

Originally posted by JimOberg
And what's this fantasy about removing a big part of the crew cabin? I have no idea what you're referring to.

Quote from the article:

At KSC, Bob Crippen was doing his part to keep things buttoned up tight. When members of the press were allowed to look at shuttle debris spread over a hangar floor as part of the reconstruction effort, he ordered the easily recognizable 576 bulkhead, the back wall of the crew compartment, removed from the display before reporters arrived. He didn't want anyone seeing any part of the crew cabin. "They never did let anybody see the wreckage from the crew compartment," says Robert Hotz. "I've seen it. [Commission member] Gene Covert and I went over Crippen's head. We took a look at it and we could see why they were trying to cover it up. It proves very conclusively that the astronauts couldn't survive a ditching. Yet they had been happily giving the astronauts training in how to survive a ditching when everybody knew it was fatal."

I really wish people would read the article that I made the subject of this thread.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by JimOberg

 

I said "a little bit of time", not "quite a bit of time". It's not a matter of just randomly throwing switches, you have to throw the right switches in the right order. A shuttle is similar to an aircraft, and I know how to start an aircraft. You have to throw the switches in a certain order, which means you are looking at a 45 seconds to a minute or so trying to restore power on one attempt. There was enough time for him to try it more than once before the cabin hit the water. They had almost three minutes from break up to impact.

They did have enough time, the question remains, did they have enough consciousness.

I've done shuttle training for astronuats, and procedures development/documentation, so I was basing my estimate on my own experience in a shuttle cockpit simulator. And sure, I doubt they'd give up on trying again and again, while they could, so we don't really have an argument here.

Only minor quibbles over the article -- thanks for posting it.

reply to post by JimOberg


That's one of the things I was thinking about today. Even if there was a decompression, I've seen people take several minutes to get to the point where you could tell something was seriously wrong. I've watched so many training sessions in the altitude chamber and watched guys go the full time limit still doing the task they were given. It really depends on the person, what kind of shape they are in, etc. While there's no way to know for certain, thank god, it's entirely possible that at least one or two of them were awake the whole time.

I don't think there was a cover up. I just think they really didn't want to confront the horror that they might have been awake.

There are no ejection seats in the shuttle.....even after the post challenger redesign.
There was no capsule recovery system......even after th redesign....
By the time of the challenger accident, they didn't even wear pressure suits during take off or landing.....that did change.
They do have a limited ability to bail out while on approach for return once they are within th atmosphere.....but the shuttle would still have to be in stable flight.

Any escape system proposed was simply deemed to heavy to fit within the confines of the design, and the chance of successful use was an extremely narrow margin.

As far as someone saying they want to hide the autopsy because it might show water in the lungs.....of course they had water in the lungs. They were at 100 feet for SIX WEEKS!

I think NASA just got over zealous protecting the remains...the families...and their image.
,

I've read that they may have still been conscious even a couple minuted AFTER the shuttle broke apart.

How come 'EJECT' seats with parachuts & oxygen masks arent provided for each individual astronaut to remain in during liftoff and reentry?

Even Sci Fi movies have them and have had for decades! Get with the program NASA! Unless you're more concerned with loss of the equipment than loss of an entire crew of genious human crew - ONE disaster after ANOTHER!

a reply to: Milah

Weight, and the fact that a few seconds after liftoff, they're too fast for anyone to eject safely. The fastest ejection in US history was at 800 mph, which is just over Mach 1.05. Both pilots ejected, but only one survived. The force of the wind instantly ripped his helmet off, broke every blood vessel in his head and face, dislocated his left elbow so badly it was going the wrong way, and broke both legs in half.

During a shuttle launch, they were over Mach 1 within 30-60 seconds, usually shortly after they throttled down the main engines. Once they pass that point, they're beyond the point they can safely eject.

originally posted by: Milah
ONE disaster after ANOTHER!

...with a 17-year interval between. Babies not old enough to walk when Challenger happened were old enough to vote when Columbia met her fate.

a reply to: Saint Exupery

I'd say 2 accidents in 135 flights, totaling over 1300 days in orbit, is a pretty damn good record.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: Milah

Weight, and the fact that a few seconds after liftoff, they're too fast for anyone to eject safely. The fastest ejection in US history was at 800 mph, which is just over Mach 1.05. Both pilots ejected, but only one survived. The force of the wind instantly ripped his helmet off, broke every blood vessel in his head and face, dislocated his left elbow so badly it was going the wrong way, and broke both legs in half.

During a shuttle launch, they were over Mach 1 within 30-60 seconds, usually shortly after they throttled down the main engines. Once they pass that point, they're beyond the point they can safely eject.

intitially, though the shuttle was invisioned with a seperable cabin and ejection seats. the escape system idea was dropped at some point.

originally posted by: Octave
I remember that day so clearly, I had the TV on but was not watching the launch, i was making the beds instead...I regret that decision to this day.
Not that i wanted to watch everyone get blown into a million little bits, but I still feel guilty

Don't feel guilty, instead be thankful you saw the footage after the fact, instead of it actually happening.
Seeing a horrific event "live" really does affect the heart and soul.

What I understood from watching the doco about this is...that at one point NASA became aware what was going to happen...but opted not to tell the crew, who were not as of that moment yet aware of the seriousness of the situation...I dont remember all the details...but I remember that this was my conclusion after watching the whole thing unfold.

I'm not sure how I feel about that...

I remember watching it live in Florida....

I have no doubt they were trying to reset the system to get power back all the way to either impact or unconscious.

Heard to many cockpit voice recorders in training, when it hits the fan you follow your training or wail like a 2 year old..vast majority of air crews will follow that training.

It's creepy sometimes how calm they are sounding even though they know they are about to die.

Kinda glad I never heard what truly happened in that crew compartment.