Mig-25 vs SR-71

Originally posted by Dima
, no, u're arguement is irrelevant because if they cancelled the project, then there is no need to keep all the workers under check, and he was only the engine technicien, they wanted to use scramjets, but every time they used it, because of the powerful force of the air, some things would rip apart inside, and by the time they had half-solved the problem, funding wasas cut, and it was never restarted again

Just because a project is cancelled does not mean it can be revealed. If it deals with sensitive information, it would still be classified. For instance, the YF-23 was cancelled - it lost to the Raptor - does that mean they just release everything about it? No, of course not. And that is not a black covert program!

it was a cool prject though

and please, don't think u're so high and mighty jus cuz u're older, jeeze, in the next 2 weeks, i will be doing massivve searchs on everything, to reinstate my once large amount of knowledge, right now, i'm kinda stupid

so, yea..........................

Listen - I do not feel I am high and mighty! OK - get over your clear stereotyping of me as some arragant American. I'm not! But I do know what I said was true, OK?

Do your research, and get both sides of the story. Russia will say she has better air craft, the US will say she has better aircraft.

One thing is not doubted though - the Raptor is admitted ON ALL SIDES as being the best operational fighter in the world. Russia will claim otherwise once the Pak fa is released. The great thing about this is that we will find out which one is better because of Indian-US military relations being as strong as they are.

Originally posted by Dima
the russian spy plane is so secret, the americans don't even know it exists, u fool,s u people, and america in genral obviously didn't know a tiny rats ass on what was going on in the USSR and what has recently been going on in,Russia, several projects have just restarted

oh, and by the way, now that russia has the Adder, boy oh boy, watch out america, it is the best missile in the world, it can go Mach 4, sry, not 4.5 and rip u guys a new one, lol, i luv saying that, but wat do u guys care, u're obviously so caught up in this american propaganda bull# that its impossible to sway u're pathetic views on russian equipment

jus wait, last point, well second last, u know all this new techology crap thats coming out of america, well, i hope that u don't accredit these discoveries to american scientists, lol, u know that after the dissolution of the USSR, 500, 000 scientists emigrated from russia, and most of them came to the US, the US didn't even know they had over 40, 000 scientists, and during the 1990's, america bought so many different technology's from russia,
hahaha, hu's laughing now, so, don't be so proud, for all u know, half the F-22 could have been created by russian scientists

Dima - this is where you started all of this, OK?

It's on page 7 - or is it 6? I forget.

Anyway, listen to what you are saying:

now that russia has the Adder, boy oh boy, watch out america...and rip u guys a new one, lol, i luv saying that

Ahhhh - arrogance at it's finest. And yet it is I who is guilty of it? Pleeease!

u know all this new techology crap thats coming out of america, well, i hope that u don't accredit these discoveries to american scientists...

Now who is the one with the "pathetic views" on whos equipment. You act like everything the US produces is really Russian.

Now thats what I call pathetic. Maybe, just maybe, all those billions of dollars and brilliant US scientists can come up with their own stuff - would you agree Dima? Or is it all really a cover up that we are getting everything from mother Russia?

The USA has the best set of scientists and engineers.

And much of the time, they were not born in the USA.

Originally posted by mbkennel
The USA has the best set of scientists and engineers.

And much of the time, they were not born in the USA.

I don't dispute that. Wel, it depends on what you mean by "much of the time" - but regardless, I do know that often they are not born in the US. Operation Paperclip is testiment to that.

My contention is with this ABSURD idea that everything we have come up with is really Russian. That idea is simply wrong.

I just wish people would stop trying to belittle everything that the US does and just give credit where credit is do. I mean, every other country has had their time to shine. Greece, Rome, Persia, England, France, Germany, Spain, Russia, Egypt. But because the US is the top dog right now, we get everything with an asterisk.

Why can't people just admit it? Right now - and since the 1940's - the US has been the greatest, most innovative power the world has ever known. It's like we can't come up with something good on our own - it's always really someone else, or it's always "yeah - but you guys did this this this this and this." God, get over it!

Guess what everybody. Im declaring the pissing contest officially over and if it keeps up everybody will lose. Whats faster than an SR-71? The speed of light warnings I do not want to have to dish out.

So, lets get back to our regularly scheduled program shall we?



[edit on 11/21/04 by FredT]

longbow, the missile speed is the relative speed, in fact those arrows can travel at M5-M7, but the interception sucess also depens on the launching plataform, an example, the f15 eagle can reach the18000 mts, but it cant move at M2.5, the problem at such heigh and speed is the high bypass furbofan (0.8???, i dont remember well), so the max sustainted speed at such heigh is only M1.5-M1.3, with the sparrow missile speed (M3) is only an total speed of M4.3-M4.5, thats not enought to shutdown an blackbird, but an turbojet (with huges AB) mig 25 can do the job easely, by the way that M2.8 is with missiles, look, ground based missiles with similar sizes can travel also at M4-M3.

[edit on 21-11-2004 by grunt]

correction mad guy

america has been the most innovative and powerful country since the very late 80's

1988-present

Originally posted by Dima
correction mad guy

america has been the most innovative and powerful country since the very late 80's

1988-present

If you are talking about aircrafts (and I don't think you meant computers:lol than you are wrong, USSR has been always 5-10 years behind US.

Originally posted by Dima
correction mad guy

america has been the most innovative and powerful country since the very late 80's

1988-present

cough harrier cough super cruise cough sorry bad i got something stuck in my thoat there. although america does make some nice planes

Well he does say 1980s. Harrier was the 60s.

Originally posted by minimi
Well he does say 1980s. Harrier was the 60s.

are you sure?
BTW whats with the RN badge and the RM motto? isnt that a bit contradictory?

no longbow, just NO, u just don't want to admit it, i admit though that the soviet union lost power, if i were to put it in a timeline

1945-1970 america(although between 1956-1970, it was a close fight)
1971-1987 ussr
1988-present america

if u didn't know, the period of the 70's was known as the "detente" its a french word, but in the 70's russia made massive strides and surpassed america, please, don't even try to argue against it, but, america started to come back in the mid 80's because they financed their military more, they weren't afraid of the soviet union anymore and russia's expenditure in the military fell because of the economic slow down

i am going to estimate that u're going to fight for the years 1971-1987

i want to see your reaction

Actually Dima, although I disagree with much of what you have posted before, I think you give up the 1945-50 period to the Americans far too easily

At the wars end the USA and the USSR were both in exactly the same position, with the exception that America hadn't just survived having WW2 fought largely on its property.

That position was one of integrating German aerodynamics and British engines into a new generation of fighters that Germany was unable and Britian unwilling to build for themselves.

While on the engine front you both got Rolls Royces finest virtually free, on the aerodynamics front America got Messerschmitt and the F-86 wing tech and Russia got Focke Wulf and developed the MiG 15. What you have also not mentioned is that the Sukhoi Su-17 was a supersonic interceptor that would have flown in 1949 had Stalin not had the P.O. Sukhoi bureau shut down on a whim that very year and stupidly ordered the prototype scrapped. This was a full year before the development of the F-100 had even begun. My point is merely that US and Russiam capability in this period was much more closely matched than many people think. This was of course right at the time when America took its place as a world power for the first time and huge strides were quickly made.

Originally posted by Dima
no longbow, just NO, u just don't want to admit it, i admit though that the soviet union lost power, if i were to put it in a timeline

1945-1970 america(although between 1956-1970, it was a close fight)
1971-1987 ussr
1988-present america

if u didn't know, the period of the 70's was known as the "detente" its a french word, but in the 70's russia made massive strides and surpassed america, please, don't even try to argue against it, but, america started to come back in the mid 80's because they financed their military more, they weren't afraid of the soviet union anymore and russia's expenditure in the military fell because of the economic slow down

i am going to estimate that u're going to fight for the years 1971-1987

i want to see your reaction

I supose you are still talking about planes, so let's see... I said during cold war USSR was always 5-10 years behind, just few examples (dates of entry into the service for compareable planes ) :

USA USSR
F-4 - 1962 Mig - 23 -1971 (9 years behind)
Mig - 25 - after 1971????
f-15 - 1972 Su-27 - 1984 (12 years! behind)
f-16 - 1979 Mig-29 - 1983-84 (only 5 years behind)

For me it looks like US have always been ahead and the russians were only catching up. The most interesting thing are the 3rd gen planes. The USA introduced it's 3rd gen plane (f-15) almost together with 2nd gen russian (Mig-26,25).

Originally posted by waynos
Actually Dima, although I disagree with much of what you have posted before, I think you give up the 1945-50 period to the Americans far too easily

At the wars end the USA and the USSR were both in exactly the same position, with the exception that America hadn't just survived having WW2 fought largely on its property.

That position was one of integrating German aerodynamics and British engines into a new generation of fighters that Germany was unable and Britian unwilling to build for themselves.

While on the engine front you both got Rolls Royces finest virtually free, on the aerodynamics front America got Messerschmitt and the F-86 wing tech and Russia got Focke Wulf and developed the MiG 15. What you have also not mentioned is that the Sukhoi Su-17 was a supersonic interceptor that would have flown in 1949 had Stalin not had the P.O. Sukhoi bureau shut down on a whim that very year and stupidly ordered the prototype scrapped. This was a full year before the development of the F-100 had even begun. My point is merely that US and Russiam capability in this period was much more closely matched than many people think. This was of course right at the time when America took its place as a world power for the first time and huge strides were quickly made.

the reason why i gave those 5 years is because america had nuclear capabilities, whch russia didn't have until some time later, i think it was 1947 or 48 forgot now

u obviously have absolutely no knowledge on the facts of the Cold War, the reason why the russian planes came out 5-10 years after the american ones is because they develpoed counters to them, for example, the F-15, therefore the Su-27, the F-16, the MiG-29, i have to say though, that the first versions of the MiG-29 and F-16, the MiG-29 was slightly superior, but the F-15 was superior to the Su-27

i thought everyone knew this, that the russians kept developing counters, they never wanted to go ahead, they were more defensive than everyone thinks(another example XB-70 therfore MiG-25)

Originally posted by devilwasp

Originally posted by Dima
correction mad guy

america has been the most innovative and powerful country since the very late 80's

1988-present

cough harrier cough super cruise cough sorry bad i got something stuck in my thoat there. although america does make some nice planes

I was talking over-all, but it is true in the aviation world as well. Look at WWII. The best bomber was American as was the best fighter. Post WWII we made the B-52, we were the first to break the speed of sound, we are the only nation to this day, 40 years later, to have gone to the moon. Fastest plane ever, we got that one too. The list goes on and on. Thats not to say that another nation hasn't had it's triumphs - the harrier is a great example, and I believe a lot of people would and could argue that the Super Flanker was top dog for a while - but the US has been the leading nation in the aerospace world since we first invented the air plane.

Oh - btw - I hope you were trying to imply that AMERICA was the first nation to have a supercruising air craft, as the SR-71 was the first to do so

Originally posted by American Mad Man

I was talking over-all, but it is true in the aviation world as well. Look at WWII. The best bomber was American as was the best fighter. Post WWII we made the B-52, we were the first to break the speed of sound, we are the only nation to this day, 40 years later, to have gone to the moon. Fastest plane ever, we got that one too. The list goes on and on. Thats not to say that another nation hasn't had it's triumphs - the harrier is a great example, and I believe a lot of people would and could argue that the Super Flanker was top dog for a while - but the US has been the leading nation in the aerospace world since we first invented the air plane.

Oh - btw - I hope you were trying to imply that AMERICA was the first nation to have a supercruising air craft, as the SR-71 was the first to do so

P1127 Hawker Kestrel, I mean BAe Harrier, 1960s.

Leading nation in aerospace since inventing the plane in 1903?

Who invented the jet, the swept wing? The stressed-metal skin, monoplane, multi-gun fighter? The delta wing? The Supermarine Sptifire finished the war with 20mm cannon and .50cal machine guns. The Gloster Meteor finished the war with cannon.
The Mustang finished the war with .50cal machine guns and the Sabre went to Korea with six .50cal guns in its nose. The Hurricane began ww2 with EIGHT .303s. The Mig 15 went to Korea with a .37mm cannon in its nose as part of the package.
What engine did the Mustang have?
What engine did the MiG 15 have?
What engine did the P80 Shooting Star have?
Who designed the Martn B57?

[edit on 23-11-2004 by HowlrunnerIV]

Originally posted by Dima
i thought everyone knew this, that the russians kept developing counters, they never wanted to go ahead, they were more defensive than everyone thinks(another example XB-70 therfore MiG-25)

Then how can they have held the advantage?!? Ferrari doesn't win world championships by building "counters to McLaren", Britain didn't defend itself by building "counters" to extant Luftwaffe birds. This logic makes no sense...

the reason why i gave those 5 years is because america had nuclear capabilities, whch russia didn't have until some time later, i think it was 1947 or 48 forgot now

.

I think it was 1949 but I was talking purely about aircraft, which I thought you were.

Look at WWII. The best bomber was American as was the best fighter.

This is interesting AMM. It is true that at the end of the war the B-29 was the best, no question. Buth the bombing campaign of the war was fought mainly with the Halifax, B-17, B-24 and Lancaster, of which the Lancaster was clearly and easily the best. ""B-29 beaters" for want of a better term, were well advanced in design and Planning at Avro, Bristol and Vickers by 1942 but ther priority for UK industry, from Govt edict, was just to build as many Lancasters as possible. This doesn't change the fact that the B-29 was built and was the best bomber in the world by 1945, but it doesn't reflect the standard of technology, only a difference in circumstance.

As for best fighter, thats much more open to debate. I am presuming that you mean the P-51 Mustang, which was truly excellent but apart from range, which was its key asset after it had been re-engined, how was it better than the Spitfire, for example?

If we are taking the stance that we did with bombers and look at what was best in 1945, the Spitfire F.21 was at least the equal of the P-51D but both were left in the shade by the Meteor F.4, Vampire F.1, P-80A and best of all, the Me 262, my view. It has been said that an Me 262 with Rolls Royce engines would have ruled the skies unopposed, an interesting supposition I believe.

we are the only nation to this day, 40 years later, to have gone to the moon.

No taking away from the achievement but to say "40 years later" is a bit thin as no-one has been prepared to spend the money to try, like with the supersonic thing and the B-52, all fine achievements to be proud of to be sure, the fact that America was the only nation rich enough or willing enough to pay for these things does not mean they were the only ones with the knowledge, as your post implies.

For instance the Vulcan and Victor were at least as advanced as the B-52, if not more so, but smaller to meet the RAF requirement and to stay within cost constraints. So the B-52, as great as it is, is hardly a measure of how far in front American tech was/is.

I may well be shot down in flames over this but I thought the first plane to fly supersonically w/o afterburners was the Lightning? If not then yes, it would be the the SR-71.

Any how, changing tack slightly, nothing is so straight forward as America did this, Russia did that etc etc.

Moon shots - American with massive German input, amongst others.

Supersonic flight - American with heavy influence from UK M.52 project

Aeroplanes - first practical modern working planforms developed by Cayley and Stringfellow in 1840's, first powered flights by Ader, France - 1890's - whole thing brought together and perfected by Wrights - USA early 1900's. A superb achievement but not really 'inventing' it.

Just for a bit of balance lets not forget;

Harrier - Britain, perfected from an idea by Michel Wibault of France and then further developed by MDC in America.

MiG 15 - USSR from a Focke Wulf design and a British engine.

You see I am not Yank bashing, just trrying to keep a little perspective.

America has done many great things, these include inventing stuff, developing other peoples inventions to the point of practicality and even improving other peoples inventions that already worked fine ie Harrier. All good stuff but I just hope to put a brake on the 'Hollywood disease' AMM as you seem a decent type of guy, if a little misguided in matters of national pride