Mig-25 vs SR-71

Mig 25/31 versus the SR71?

Personally I reckon the superior electronics of the SR71 would see it through on a 1 on 1 encounter. Maybe even in a 2 on 1 encounter.

As there werer very few SR71's made there is never likely to have been more than 1 or 2 of them to intercept but Russia made quite a few Mig 25's and 31's (certainly compared and relatively speaking).

Up against a flight of 4 or more Migs I wouldn't fancy being in the SR71 Blackbird......and I think US planners understood this fully and that's one of the main reasons why they stopped over flying Russia.

(Plus when decent high-quality satellite coverage became available why risk pilots and planes when the intel could be gathered much more safely?)

Just my 2 pennies/cents.

Anyhoo my real point for coming in on this one was a comment I saw early on in the postings about high speed manoeuvers.

Basically forget it.

There aren't really any.

Look at it this way.......

at slow speeds there is an immaginary 'cone' of posssible manoeuver a plane can make but (thanks to physics.....remember there's no avoiding the physics! ) the faster one goes the smaller that 'cone' gets until you get to a point where it is tiny.

Mach 3+ is in the tiny zone.

It's a little different for missiles mainly because they don't have to consider the man in them and the sustainable 'g' limitations that dictates (weight, size and even control surface area ratios also come into it) but it does apply - but to a lesser degree - to them too.

[edit on 20-10-2004 by sminkeypinkey]

[edit on 20-10-2004 by sminkeypinkey]

Originally posted by ghost
Fact #1: The Mig can only fly at mach 3 for a few breif minutes, but the Blackbird cruses at mach 3

This means the SR-71 would be increasing the distance between the mig and itself, while the mig is still picking up speed. Once the mig is at Mach 3 the distance would remain fixed, because two objects moving at the same speed and in the same direction will remain equally spaced.

Russians intersept sr-71 by going head to head with it, for ex. if Sr-71 is going south then mig should be going north.

the reason why mig25 could not intersept is cuz there is only one person in the mig. that one pilot has to controll airplane speed constantly, if you go too fast - fried engines. you also control attitude, look at radar, be prepared to launch missile, and actually launch it, and millions of other things... just too many tasks for 1 pilot. take to note that sr-71 is going mach 3+ as well as Mig. so both aircraft approach each other at mach 6+ ... so things happen VERY quickly.

this is why mig-31 has TWO people flying it. one controls airplane, other does the navigation/radar/missile job.

when they simulated sr-71 interseption in mig-25, they couldnt, but when in mig-31, they could do it on their first try.

Too some the black-bird was the best plane ever created. It was so far ahead of its time. Each of the two jets, has something like the power of 45 trains.

[edit on 20-10-2004 by SpittinCobra]

The SR-71 called Habu 972 takes a look at the Kamchatka Peninsula, while three MiG-25's, lower right, make a futile, hopeless attempt to intercept.

Perhaps this thread will help?
Fastest Aircraft in the World


seekerof

In 1993 it was decided to retire the SR-71 - the reasons given for the premature retirement was the ability of satellites to carry out the mission and the increasing cost of maintaining the SR-71 fleet. Apart from the cost of maintaining the SR-71 fleet, another factor may have been taken into consideration was the knowledge that the aircraft had become vulnerable. This had been demonstrated on 3 June 1986 over the Barents Sea, when 6 MIG-31 Foxhounds performed a co-ordinated intercept against an SR-71 that would have subjected the aircraft to an all-angle AAM attack that even the high speed/altitude and ECM capability of the aircraft would have had great difficulty in defeating.

www.spyflight.co.uk...

Originally posted by titus
the reason why mig25 could not intersept is cuz there is only one person in the mig. that one pilot has to controll airplane speed constantly, if you go too fast - fried engines. you also control attitude, look at radar, be prepared to launch missile, and actually launch it, and millions of other things... just too many tasks for 1 pilot. take to note that sr-71 is going mach 3+ as well as Mig. so both aircraft approach each other at mach 6+ ... so things happen VERY quickly.

Wasn't that the reason why they equipped the MIG-25 with a basic autopilot? It could maintain course, speed, attitude, altitude, etc. so that the pilot could concentrate on the intercept.

this is why mig-31 has TWO people flying it. one controls airplane, other does the navigation/radar/missile job.

when they simulated sr-71 interseption in mig-25, they couldnt, but when in mig-31, they could do it on their first try.

You forget to mention the fact that the MIG-31 has a considerably better radar than the MIG-25, including look down/shoot down.

As far as the simulations go, how did they simulate it? They poesses no aircraft that can do what the SR-71 did.

BTW the MIG-31 was originally developed to handle the B-1A.

Originally posted by titus
This means the SR-71 would be increasing the distance between the mig and itself, while the mig is still picking up speed. Once the mig is at Mach 3 the distance would remain fixed, because two objects moving at the same speed and in the same direction will remain equally spaced.

Russians intersept sr-71 by going head to head with it, for ex. if Sr-71 is going south then mig should be going north.

the reason why mig25 could not intersept is cuz there is only one person in the mig. that one pilot has to controll airplane speed constantly, if you go too fast - fried engines. you also control attitude, look at radar, be prepared to launch missile, and actually launch it, and millions of other things... just too many tasks for 1 pilot. take to note that sr-71 is going mach 3+ as well as Mig. so both aircraft approach each other at mach 6+ ... so things happen VERY quickly.

this is why mig-31 has TWO people flying it. one controls airplane, other does the navigation/radar/missile job.

when they simulated sr-71 interseption in mig-25, they couldnt, but when in mig-31, they could do it on their first try.



The flaw in this is it assumes tht the SR-71 does not change course. If it did change course the Mig wouldn't be close enough to shoot or even have a lock!

Unless the MiGs carry a mach 6 missile, I'd think the SR-71 would just cruise away.

Here are some major factors in whether the Russians could take down an SR-71...
1. Location of the SR-71 when it is picked up on radar. If it isnt near an airfield, then interception would be more unlikely. Also, if it concluding its mission and on its way out of Russian airspace, then interception would be much harder. The most likely scenario would be if the SR-71 is near an airfield, and just entering Russian airspace.
2. Russian response time. If the Blackbird is detected early, then the Russians would have more time to respond appropriatly. If it is detected post objective, then by the time the Russians responded, it would have escaped.

Originally posted by COOL HAND
You forget to mention the fact that the MIG-31 has a considerably better radar than the MIG-25, including look down/shoot down.

As far as the simulations go, how did they simulate it? They poesses no aircraft that can do what the SR-71 did.

true, especially the Mig-31BM and its radar...


they said that they used other mig to simulate Sr-71, both migs going almost mach 3 at each other
russians didnt know that blackbird existed when they designed mig-25. so it wasnt intended to intersept sr-71, later mig-31 WAS.


btw, can sr-71 launch satellites? Mig-31S can...

A short video of a YF-12 launching a AIM-47 missile.

On April 16, 1964, the first airborne AIM-47 missile separation test was conducted. Unfortunately, the missile's nose-down position was not correct, and had the missile's rocket motor actually fired, the aircraft would probably have shot itself down. On March 18, a YF-12A successfully engaged a Q-2C target drone at 40,000 feet while the interceptor was flying at Mach 2.2 at an altitude of 65,000 feet. The first powered launch was undertaken on March 18, 1956. Six out of seven AIM-47 tests resulted in hits, including One fired from an altitude of 75,000 feet and a speed of Mach 3.2 against a target approaching head-on at 1500 feet.

mrdata.com...

Originally posted by titus
btw, can sr-71 launch satellites? Mig-31S can...

Yes as can the F-15C. The Satleite concepts was never tried on the SR-71 but no doubt it could be made to work. Rember that they air launched an ICBM out of a C-5A. When the SR-71 was flying Habu missions, the Sov's tried thier best to down one and was unable. Period. The Mig-31 no doubt in "simulated" engagments took out the Blackbierd that was more of a moral exersize than anything. The F-15's could too if the new the speed and altitude and direction of the plane. Try that exersize again with those factors and you will get different results. The Mig-31 was a great interceptor, but was not in the class of the SR-71. Maybe a much bigger leff manuverable XB-70, but not the blackbird'

YF-12A was designed to have a missile bay. It was a high speed antibomber fighter. Proposed [but not build] version RB-12 was a bomber!
YF-12A had four missiles Hughes AIM-47A. Pictures and internal arrangement you can find at:

www.hitechweb.szm.sk/blackbird3.htm

Or Blackbird history from beginnig:

www.hitechweb.szm.sk/blackbird.htm

Originally posted by COOL HAND
BTW the MIG-31 was originally developed to handle the B-1A.

And Aardvark and Strike Eagle.
It was designed to counter fast low level penetrators.


www.wvi.com...



Nice lead distance... and I don't think they flew directly towards airfields.

on September 06, 1976 Lt. Viktor Ivanovich Belenko piloted his Mig-25 (USSR Product #84) from the 513th Fighter Regiment at the Siberian Base of Sakharovka, Soviet Air Defense Command and defected to the United States. He landing the Mig-25 in Japan under adverse weather conditions.
...
Upon dismantling the Mig-25, the data was analyzed by the Foreign Technology Division of the Air Force at Dayton, Ohio. There were many surprises:
The Mig had been manufactured in February 1976 and thus was one of their latest most sophisticated production aircraft.

Pilots were forbidden to exceed Mach 2.5. There was a total of three engine instruments and the airspeed indicator was redlined at 2.8 Mach.

Above Mach 2.8 the engines would overheat and burn up. The Americans had clocked a Mig-25 over Israel at Mach 3.2 in 1973. Upon landing in Egypt, the engines were totally destroyed. We did not understand that the engine destruction was inevitable.

The combat radius is 186 miles.

Maximum operational altitude: Carrying two missiles, 78,740 feet (for maximum two minutes duration); carrying four missiles, 68,900 feet is maximum.

Maximum altitude of missiles: 88,588 feet.

Ability to intercept an SR-71: Belenko states the Mig-25 cannot intercept the SR-71 for several reasons: The SR-71 fly too high and too fast; the Mig cannot reach it or catch it. The missiles lack the velocity to overtake the SR-71 and in the event of a head on missile fire (The Golden BB), the Guidance system cannot adjust to the high closure rate of the SR-71.

In a tight turn the missiles could be ripped from the wings.

The Mig-25 was was not a fighter or an air superiority aircraft but rather designed by the Soviets to climb at tremendous speeds, fire missiles at one pass of the target and then land.

And rocket motors in missiles won't burn long.
Also these missile's top speeds are for moment of motor burn out, after that they only decelerate, meaning pretty much that after motor burn out missile don't have any hope of catching.

So you would have to get very close so that missile could be able to beat Blackbird kinetically

I think the SR-71 could get away with a flight over Russia without getting shot down by squadrons of Mig 25 or 31's however considering that spy satellites can do most of the things the SR-71 was designed to do i don't think it would be worth the risk and there would be some risk.

Originally posted by E_T
So you would have to get very close so that missile could be able to beat Blackbird kinetically

- Or (in a war situation against something like a bomber - like the B70 it was designed to go against) you could do what what the USA did with it's genie missiles and fit a small nuclear warhead into the missile.

In which case your accuracy requirements and worries about slow-down on the coasting part of the missile flight profile aren't anything like the big deal they might have been conventionally.
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I'm still amused by the continuing comments about these fantasy manoeuvers at such high speeds.

That's part of what killed the ultra high and fast mission, you can't really manoeuver much and become a killable nice target for a decent modern high altitude missile system.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
I'm still amused by the continuing comments about these fantasy manoeuvers at such high speeds.

That's part of what killed the ultra high and fast mission, you can't really manoeuver much and become a killable nice target for a decent modern high altitude missile system.

True - at Mach 3 you cant really do much but point the nose in a slightly different diretion.

The thing is, when you do make a small turn, it puts you very far off of your original course, which makes tracking and hitting a plane doing this very difficult.

Yeah, turn radii at those speeds are in the hundreds of miles, its like a big bad musclecar, good in a straight line. The YF-12 was a good exercise in engineering but never in a million years would it have made a decent operational aircraft. All of the Blackbird series needed extensive preflight operations, they were dependant on post takeoff refuelling and were extremely expensive to operate per hour.

And rocket motors in missiles won't burn long.
Also these missile's top speeds are for moment of motor burn out, after that they only decelerate, meaning pretty much that after motor burn out missile don't have any hope of catching.

So you would have to get very close so that missile could be able to beat Blackbird kinetically

The AMOS maxes out at around 3100 mph and has a burn of about 2.25 minutes. Consequently it is not a very manueverable missile and any "end game" corrections at that speed are a joke....