Who is Gods creator?

Originally posted by therealdemoboy

Originally posted by Shadow Herder

"If the latter were the case, God would not be God, for He would be effect and not cause; He cannot be both cause and effect."

Yet the bible says "I am the Alpha AND the Omega". Wouldn't this say that the cause-and-effect argument may have a single exception in the acceptance of God?

Thelemetic Law says paraphrasing "That existing Above also exists Below" No exception given to God; as this applies only to all earthbound creatures. Where God would place itself is anyones guess, as it was not the original thinker or had any causal effect or cure. It stands around waiting for results is all.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Barcs

 

Something doesn't have to have a definition for us to supply one. Due to our limited perspective, we see just enough to determine existence but not enough to determine the true nature, which allows us to supply a subjective label that enables us to communicate and record ideas effectively according to our subjective existential observation.

Because these operations are intended to serve our existence and our existence alone, they are nothing more than a crutch by which to assist our existence up to the point when such crutches are no longer needed. At that point, definitions fall away and true nature is observed fully and equally amongst all parties. Suffice it to say that we are invalids struggling to evolve according to the whims of the world in which we live, despite knowing only a tiny fraction of what the world is really about.

The problem is, when you supply your own definition for something that is admittedly unknown in science, it opens up the door to all kinds of speculation and nonsense. If you define god as XYZ, without even first knowing he exists, it is jumping ahead. First we need to establish the basics, which has yet to be done. There is no objective evidence anywhere of a creator or creation event. That is the beginning of the search. You don't assign parameters ahead of time as a guess. I know that most people are looking for god to be scientifically possible, hence the eternal all powerful explanation, but it is still incredibly illogical. I'm not saying it's wrong to believe that, it's just wrong to try to justify it with false inferences and poor understanding of science. I mean, you can't just say science applies to everything... except god. That is indeed a cop out.

Originally posted by Glass
There is a point at the highest degree of consciousness where "everything" and "nothing" are almost synonymous. M-theory calls this the 10th dimension (or the 11th depending on who you ask). Buddhists call this the void. No matter what you call it, it's not an easy concept for the human mind to understand.

M-theory is also a mathematical theory that is not proven in the least. Eternal / all knowing god is an illogical concept, which is why it's difficult to understand.

"Nothing" is not a concept that can actually exist in this universe, only through excluding things from the set of things we wish to define can we say there's nothing at any location. You walk into an "empty" room, devoid of furniture, people, etc. and you say "theres nothing in this room", but when you took inventory you excluded the air, since there's certainly air in the room and air is certainly "something". Suppose you remove the air from the room and seal it, creating a perfect vacuum (which only exists theoretically) and say that there is nothing...but there is still the fact that the space in the room exists; there is still "universal background information" which defines that room as a space.

There's also no reason to suggest that "nothing" ever existed. Nothing is a very simple concept. There is literally nothing at all. It's not relative to air, or how humans think about empty rooms. If there was "nothing" at any point in time, there was no god by definition. Otherwise there would be only god, not nothing. This is why I say if people assign imaginary attributes to a hypothetical being, it defies an actual answer to the question of how god got there. If everything has a cause, god must have a cause as well. If not it's just blind chance that god happened to always exist. If you can apply the label of eternal to god, you can do it to the universe.

In the void, everything exists. Every imaginable universe with every possible beginning and every possible ending, cointaining every possible action and result. This realm contains the potential for the creation of literally everything you could possibly imagine, and yet it is formless. There is no seperation between possibilities in the void, they are all blended together in a singularity. It is impossible to define any single thing, like say an apple, while still remaining in the void, you'd have to descend down the dimensions to our universe, our specific instance of this universe, find the point along a 4-dimensional time line where an apple tree had evolved, then you could say "that is an apple". Everything is nothing...try not to overheat your brain thinking about this.

That's an interesting guess, but it's not something that has evidence behind it and doesn't explain where and how god came from. If he's there, he has to have a cause.

It's not really a cop-out. God is not constrained to the 4th dimension as we are, "he" is way above it. From his perspective, our universe always has and always will exist, and so does he. From our perspective, the universe had a beginning, or at least it appears to have a beginning, because we're right in the middle of a time-line looking back.

Again, those are just guesses though. The universe could be way more complicated and could be in a loop of big bangs. That's what M-theory suggests at least. Time is relative to the observer. Of course we look back and think beginning, but if we are indeed in a loop it would make the universe eternal. Energy can never be created or destroyed, it can only change forms.

We'll never be able to gather evidence within time and space of something outside of time and space. Well maybe I shouldn't say never but it seems pretty damn unlikely given the nature of the question. It's like asking a blind man to prove the existence of color. I doubt we'll ever be able to create something in this dimension that can transcend dimensions and send back information, simply because anything created in this dimension must obey the laws of this dimension.

I wouldn't say never. We've made pretty good progress with the Hadron Collider. A blind man could prove the existence of color because you don't need to see. Only to understand how the color spectrum divides and what causes it. A blind man could explain this without sight because it's a very specific phenomenon and is known to science how light reacts and works.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


I'm not showing/proving anything. I'm just saying that the bible addresses that, and for the bible-believers, that's enough. Hell, I'm just some dude on the internet playing the Devil's advocate, so don't put any weight on my shoulders...

reply to post by Barcs


The known universe is comprised of a chemical hierarchy of interactive elements that, when arranged in a very particular pattern, is capable of producing autonomous organisms with the capacity to question the very elements composing them. The universe has the potential for translation, becoming a mad web of numbers that can be converted into a complete replica of something that boggles our creative imagination. This implies that the entire universe is governed by a subtle system of mathematical manifestation - call it three dimensional language, if you will. Every single object in the universe is determined by the numbers involved in its dimensions and functions. Write a successful conversation in such a language, and you have created the blue prints for a possible manifestation, an expression of the chemical language that composes our entire universe.

Such a thing does not just happen. It is designed. I am not saying a god did it. I am saying that somewhere in the deepest roots of existence, there is a single law, a single line of code, determining the exact parameters of such a language - right down to the time tables and match-making skills. if I were to call anything godly, it would be this single line of code. A code embedded in the very fabric of existence itself, determining the precise parameters and behavior of the chemical language that wrote our entire universe.

Imagine taking a language, and compiling every book of instructions into one giant guidebook. If that language were the universe, the guidebook would be my idea of a creator. Something that is truly responsible for the entire universe. A single line of code. The index to the universal language.

That's why I keep saying we can be our own gods. Because if we learn that language, we can write words, sentences, paragraphs, dig deeper and deeper into the tangle of syntax and grammar and the etymology behind the chemical constructs. We have the power to learn the language, and if we do, we will be on our way to being gods. Especially if we learn to rewrite ourselves.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Barcs

 

Something that is truly responsible for the entire universe. A single line of code. The index to the universal language.

The disciples said to Jesus: Tell us what the kingdom of heaven is like. He said to them: It is like a grain of mustard-seed, the smallest of all seeds; but when it falls on tilled ground, it puts forth a great branch and becomes shelter for the birds of heaven.
-Gospel of Thomas

Get it?

Mankind is not enlightened enough or smart enough to even ask the questions, "Who created God?" or "Where and how did it all begin?"

Originally posted by Barcs
There's also no reason to suggest that "nothing" ever existed. Nothing is a very simple concept. There is literally nothing at all. It's not relative to air, or how humans think about empty rooms. If there was "nothing" at any point in time, there was no god by definition. Otherwise there would be only god, not nothing.

This is correct; "nothing" cannot exist. The closest thing in existence to actual nothingness would be formlessness, in that a formless entity could not be percieved to be any specific thing.

This is why I say if people assign imaginary attributes to a hypothetical being, it defies an actual answer to the question of how god got there. If everything has a cause, god must have a cause as well. If not it's just blind chance that god happened to always exist. If you can apply the label of eternal to god, you can do it to the universe.

God doesn't have a cause. Only things which exist within time have causes, or appear to have causes. The cause-effect relationship only has any meaning when time is percieved as a linear progression. When one is not constrained to the time line, all events (both cause and effect) exist simultaneously.

And I can and do "apply the label" of eternal to both God and the universe. Even if the universe had a definite beginning like the big bang, it has still always existed from the highest perspective.

That's an interesting guess, but it's not something that has evidence behind it and doesn't explain where and how god came from.

If you're hung up on evidence, you won't have an answer until some breakthrough is achieved by the most brilliant of our scientists, and you might as well just wait until that happens.

I don't see anything to be gained from arguing with someone who holds a closed belief system, whether it be based on faith in the word of man or the acceptance only of verified evidence.

A blind man could prove the existence of color because you don't need to see. Only to understand how the color spectrum divides and what causes it. A blind man could explain this without sight because it's a very specific phenomenon and is known to science how light reacts and works.

The blind man would only be able to explain color based on information gathered by a man who could see. He could understand that light passing through a prism is seperated into rays of the different frequencies which make up that light, that different frequencies of light have different appearances...but he would never have known that light itself had even existed unless someone had told him.

reply to post by Shadow Herder

Originally posted by Shadow Herder

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Barcs

 

Something that is truly responsible for the entire universe. A single line of code. The index to the universal language.

The disciples said to Jesus: Tell us what the kingdom of heaven is like. He said to them: It is like a grain of mustard-seed, the smallest of all seeds; but when it falls on tilled ground, it puts forth a great branch and becomes shelter for the birds of heaven.
-Gospel of Thomas

Get it?

No, not really. Maybe you could try to explain it more.

Originally posted by AthlonSavage
Who is Gods creator?

It is common agmonst Ats thread writers and posters to refer to God and the general connotation is that God is the creator of life on earth. Now what God actually is will often lead to emotive debates.

I want to in this thread ask the question who created God? Of course this presumes that God is a real thing of a humanly describable or non-humanly undescribale form.

If God is truely an inventation of the human mind then the answer is quite simple that humans created God.

If not and there is actual in fact something of a separate intelligent force to humans with power enough to create the world and everything in it, then the answer will be completely different.

So take a seat in the chair of the greatest mystery of all and ponder.

So who is God?
And who is Gods Creator?

edit on 30-10-2012 by AthlonSavage because: (no reason given)

Why do atoms exist ? Where did they come from ? Why can't I hold the wind in my hand ? How big is love and from where does it come from, or hate, why does hate exist at all ? From where did the big bang come from, and what was before that ? When I dream, does that place exist, and if so are the people there real people ? Where do songs come from and why are there so many without end ? If I lose something can it ever be found again, and if it can be found was it ever really lost ? Why can a look from one persons eyes into another's convey messages than cannot be spoken with words ? What is the smallest thing, or the biggest ? If I can count to infinity, why can I add one more number to it ? What is the limit or heat or cold ? Where do words come from ?

In relation to not being able to know anything about what we can see and experience in this universe, what makes anyone think they can handle being able to know the source and being of God who created everything we now know.

We exist. The universe exists. You cannot get something from nothing. In the beginning of the universe God created the heavens and the Earth. It changed from darkness to light, then to structure and finally us. That's enough to handle right now. When you have to stand before God when you die, then you'll know. You can't know or understand it now.

Hii,

Before thinking about this, you should think that thousands of people are dying of hunger, thousands people need your love and respect.

Give Love and respect to other People. This is what "Intelligent Design-Message from the Designers".

Originally posted by AthlonSavage
Who is Gods creator?

It is common agmonst Ats thread writers and posters to refer to God and the general connotation is that God is the creator of life on earth. Now what God actually is will often lead to emotive debates.

I want to in this thread ask the question who created God? Of course this presumes that God is a real thing of a humanly describable or non-humanly undescribale form.

If God is truely an inventation of the human mind then the answer is quite simple that humans created God.

If not and there is actual in fact something of a separate intelligent force to humans with power enough to create the world and everything in it, then the answer will be completely different.

So take a seat in the chair of the greatest mystery of all and ponder.

So who is God?
And who is Gods Creator?

edit on 30-10-2012 by AthlonSavage because: (no reason given)

YOU are Gods creator... You always existed, (just did not remember) God "simply put" sends out his "thoughts" into parts which have different life experiences (life forms) they eventually "die" and return to the ONE source.

See, time does not even exist ( but you think it does) as infinant power and light. As God exists so do YOU we are all a collective consciousness.. I am Jewish, Catholic, Christian and an Atheist.. I AM the lady at the cash register, the bum on the streets and your CPA and Attorney...I AM your neighbor and best friend!!!!! As they are all having different experiences on their life journey... We are all ONE.. THEY are another YOU and WE are all ONE...

If this was not true I would not say this... So enjoy your journey and play the game.. just by questioning what you have has made you a winner already. You are doing great!

reply to post by bluestar.ranch


So you think where all God, and for some reason we decided to amnesia ourselve to make us believe we are humans with limtations. Why would God do that? Mabey God found himself all alone and it freaked him out so he invented a make believe world of physical forms which includes humans living on this earth.

is it the ultimate symbiosis , god lives through our experiences and we live through its mind. it needs us to live and visa versa

Originally posted by MouldyCrumpet
is it the ultimate symbiosis , god lives through our experiences and we live through its mind. it needs us to live and visa versa

Not only lives through our experiences but grows by/in them/us. We describe IT to ITSELF. So who is the true Creator? God thinks Man into existance and in process creates Itself through cognetive recognition by having created a Creature that can recognise IT. I suspect we are the true creators and having said this should acknowelege or at least contemplate the possiblity we individually comprise the WHOLE One True God Concept hidden in plain sight (the invisible unknowable that we desperately seek).

reply to post by MouldyCrumpet

is it the ultimate symbiosis , god lives through our experiences and we live through its mind. it needs us to live and visa versa

No. We don't need a god to live. We can live perfectly well without a god. We have ourselves...each other. Why do we need a god?

d/p

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by MouldyCrumpet

 

is it the ultimate symbiosis , god lives through our experiences and we live through its mind. it needs us to live and visa versa

No. We don't need a god to live. We can live perfectly well without a god. We have ourselves...each other. Why do we need a god?

We dont need a God to worship. All else degrades to a badly written play, ill thought out (having no final act); wherein the audience responds with the jubilant cries of "author, author!!" Upon appearing for what the Creator thinks is curtain call bows and roses is pelted with rotten eggs and tomatoes.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by MouldyCrumpet

 

is it the ultimate symbiosis , god lives through our experiences and we live through its mind. it needs us to live and visa versa

No. We don't need a god to live. We can live perfectly well without a god. We have ourselves...each other. Why do we need a god?

Well, put very simply, without God none of this would be here. So yeah, we kinda do need God as long as we wish to keep existing.

reply to post by Glass

Well, put very simply, without God none of this would be here. So yeah, we kinda do need God as long as we wish to keep existing.

That's a hell of an assumption. Are you going to be providing any evidence or rational source material for that statement?