Big Brother doesn't have enough manpower to watch you...at least not very intently

I was really wondering where the thread might go and didn't want to jump into a fight thread again so I held back a bit... It's gone well, so I might as well toss in my two cents.

First... The concerns people have for the Government becoming Big Brother on super-size technology is valid enough, even if some today don't recall the examples in recent times of how far this CAN go and, with no signs of slowing down yet, appears to BE going in the U.S..

First, an example I recall seeing reports of when they found the rooms and rooms of these in East Germany. Now, we have the museum and what they saved of one of the most evil secret police organizations since World War II. The East German Stasi.

When I think of the Government collecting a hundred little tidbits about me that all add up to nothing by themselves..I think of this. I think of the 'Library of Jars'.

A row of sealed jars, each containing a seemingly innocuous yellow dust cloth, forms part of the museum's permanent exhibition. But these jars were part of the East German secret police's collection of scent samples used to keep track of dissidents.

They collected fragments and pieces to establish a scent record on their citizens. This was so the dogs would be able to hunt them down later, if needed, if they made a run for freedom across the wall or became a problem in some other way needing clipped.

A store-room filled with thousands of jarred scent samples sounds would be a fine scene for a rather dark espionage or conspiracy game. A dimly lit (or windowless) concrete building, row upon row of shelves with neatly labelled jars. Can they find their own names there? Loved ones, friends, people they have met? The articles mention that apart from scents, they collected samples of hair, handwriting, even saliva – could the characters find a little cross-section of their lives?

Source

That is just one example of how Communism and what the West fought during the decades of the cold war manifested itself against it's own citizens. It's what people have good reason to watch for and insure never happens again. As the Founders said, Eternal Vigilance is the price of Freedom. Yes, it sure is.

Now...Here is WHY people need worry in the modern age. Echelon. A joint program run between the United States, United Kingdom and Australian governments to monitor, in essence, EVERY electronic communication of any form, anywhere on Earth. Success is debatable....but the Tooele, Utah data center should remove the technical issues Echelon has experienced since it's inception.

ECHELON is a term associated with a global network of computers that automatically search through millions of intercepted messages for pre-programmed keywords or fax, telex and e-mail addresses. Every word of every message in the frequencies and channels selected at a station is automatically searched. The processors in the network are known as the ECHELON Dictionaries. ECHELON connects all these computers and allows the individual stations to function as distributed elements an integrated system. An ECHELON station's Dictionary contains not only its parent agency's chosen keywords, but also lists for each of the other four agencies in the UKUSA system [NSA, GCHQ, DSD, GCSB and CSE]

Source

It's a global kind of thing. I once doubted this may exist and as a test back in the late 90's, some friends and I decided to play 'find the keyword!'. We figured if such a thing existed, certain keywords would have to trip it. . Anyway, the network I had then gave us the tools to see a response from within our own private IRC chat server on our dedicated equipment. It worked. It worked TOO well...and removed all doubt I ever had that this existed back then and earlier.

The keyword, since I'm sure it doesn't matter these days was "Project Rainbow". It took screwing with some other context lines mixed in for chat before it brought a response, but when it did, it was BIG and went for a good part of the evening. Many hits from a little post in Southern Arizona ( ) and a variety of other places. So...I'd say it's all real enough. It's just computer driven and controlled. I don't think humans even look at things unless the computers have said at least a couple ways, it's worth seeing. I doubt any human even saw what happened with our experiment. We triggered computer responses, I'm almost sure of it. It's still something to note though. When the NSA facility in Utah is fully functional, it'll raise Echelon to a whole new level...or whatever program may be added to it by now to improve the concept.

Originally posted by auraelium

Originally posted by UberL33t
reply to post by auraelium

 

That's a fair assumption I suppose. What Big Brotheresque functions would you say this AI computer would be able to perform?

Monitering every phone call,fax,email,blog post,website,car registration numbers from CCTV, creditcard transactions and a lot more, in real time is currently no problem.the only problem they have had up until now is storage but thats being sorted...check here....

documentthetruth.com...

All those things a normal person can do. A hacker can hack CCTV,intercept and monitor internet IP packets and can steal CC data remotely.

You don't need to be the government to do those things now in 2012.

Originally posted by UberL33t
reply to post by boncho

 

Yeah I read a little as I came across the picture, I made a comical reference to the 6 year olds because I just thought it was funny. For the sake of intended awareness of posting those was to denote changes that were made and ultimately accepted whether people liked it at the time or not, more or less.

I felt I may have been teetering on T&C's with that first one, and the asthma cigarette one was a bit more milder than the heroine infant calming tonic

I don't see why the changes that took place are being heralded as positive ones though. It's a little hard to discuss because I don't want to violate t&c, so I will try to do so with caution.

Many of the ingredients that were used in past are still used today, or their analogues are, or sometimes even more harmful drugs instead, in the pharma industry.

The shift to criminalizing, regulating and controlling an industry that is centred around personal choice (and doctor's recommendations), all the while impregnating people with negative ideas at an early age (programmed) is a worrying one. One that you seem to say is just "change" that should be accepted.

The very fact that you elicit an emotional response to those old ads, shows exactly the type of programming done as a whole on the western world.

reply to post by UberL33t


OP you left one big factor out of your claim!
Big Brother has a,
SEE SOMETHING, SAY SOMETHING
Campaign.
They are asking millions of people to spy on their neighbors,
because without citizen spy's,
they are unable to meet the task!
It is the same as here on ATS,
because they do not have enough mods,
to watch everything,
so they have an alert button.

All those traffic cams? Hooked together in a single netowrk. Think they have a human look at every speeder then manually send a ticket? Nope. Camera reads the plates when speed exceeds a certain limit. Or when you fail to stop at a stop sign. My wife got one of those. She just did a "rolling stop". They were even kind enough to send a copy of the picture. Now who looked through vids to find one person doing a rolling stop? Nobody. The software did that. And how else could they catch a rolling stop unless the cam was recording constantly?

No need to look all the time. Just when you want to find someone. Then do a search for the plates. They'll know where you traveled over the entire country. At least most of it.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000 but also going to attempt a reply that will cover other replies to me in this thread as well

I don't think humans even look at things unless the computers have said at least a couple ways, it's worth seeing.

By your example then I have deduced the biggest fear (for lack of a better term) regarding Big Brother is that these computers are storing bits of information within our virtual library of jars without our consent. I can see how some would find that eerie from a "why are you all up in my biznass yo" stand point.

I can only guess then that it boils down to what an individual essentially feels should be their freedom and more or less their right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness within a functioning society versus what is deemed so by the Government.

I find it very difficult to believe however that current elements being put into place that fit the Big Brother bill are being done so for malicious intent towards the masses. boncho mentioned (paraphrasing) that I am the perfect example of someone who has been programmed to believe certain things based on what "they" tell me but with the example given, there are facts to back up why we stopped using Cocaine for toothaches.

The same can be said for a tighter grip on our information and the Government being aware of those individuals that are distributing said information in the many different ways available this day and age. If there is just cause that has determined portions of said information as being a threat then in most cases it would most likely be warranted. I don't feel that there has been enough cases of civil liberties being trampled upon by our Government to give any credence to being on the verge of a Big Brother society.

In this day and age (without trying to get into any deep debates regarding any stances one has) we have advanced as a species so much so and for better, or worse unfortunately, that certain securities need to be in place in order to ensure one's right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness as it stands in our currently stage of advancement imo.

So I suppose it all rests on what the main goal is for our civilization as seen by those that lead us (in which we vote in to make those decisions I might add, speaking for the US here) but respectively on the whole.

Is the goal to forcibly maintain a horde of mindless slaves that work only so that an elite group can experience a life full of spoils of the rich and powerful?

Or, is the goal to have some element of world peace, or more, steering the species to become a functioning world democracy where capitalism thrives within the civilization, however to do so, a happy medium must be established between cultural, religious, ideological, etc differences which turns out to be quite the hurdle when individual and group self entitlement runs rampant in and among the species (e.g. world peace having a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness albeit most likely having to conform to certain standards within reason and most likely would involve elements of change to what may be considered a freedom or right)?

I suppose time will tell, but I for one see the ultimate goal for Big Brother as a pain staking and long overdue attempt (imo) to accomplish the latter goal.

Thank you all for the replies so far, they are indeed enlightening.

reply to post by Rudy2shoes

It is the same as here on ATS,
because they do not have enough mods,
to watch everything,
so they have an alert button.

As it should be, if you were away from home, someone was breaking into your home, and your neighbor came over after you returned to find all of your belongings had been stolen and said "I saw the whole thing, but I know how you feel about people spying on you so I didn't call the authorities".

You wouldn't have issue with that neighbors decision?

Originally posted by davjan4
All those traffic cams? Hooked together in a single netowrk. Think they have a human look at every speeder then manually send a ticket? Nope. Camera reads the plates when speed exceeds a certain limit. Or when you fail to stop at a stop sign. My wife got one of those. She just did a "rolling stop". They were even kind enough to send a copy of the picture. Now who looked through vids to find one person doing a rolling stop? Nobody. The software did that. And how else could they catch a rolling stop unless the cam was recording constantly?

No need to look all the time. Just when you want to find someone. Then do a search for the plates. They'll know where you traveled over the entire country. At least most of it.

edit on 28-10-2012 by davjan4 because: sp

Your wife, whom I am sure is a model citizen (that was sincere and though may have appeared sarcastic was indeed genuine) broke the law. Therein she got a ticket, regardless of just being a rolling stop, it's still against the law. Unless I am wrong and she is not a model citizen and is trafficking ICBM's across the country, why would "they" or anyone want to follow her travels pray tell?

Well if someone is watching me i hope they enjoy seeing me in my undies while ignoring my work clothes! On a more serious note i say let them watch i have nothing to hide! Bring it on 1984!!! Prisoner 1983/12/14/ you are not doing your creases correctly!

reply to post by boncho

all the while impregnating people with negative ideas at an early age (programmed) is a worrying one. One that you seem to say is just "change" that should be accepted.

The very fact that you elicit an emotional response to those old ads, shows exactly the type of programming done as a whole on the western world.

I tend to rely more on peer reviewed modern academics and modern medical studies in regards to what I feel you're directly speaking of. What we knew about things and thought they cured tend to "change" when our understanding of them becomes more precise and better studied.

I was more going for an indirect approach regarding the element of change with those examples. I will agree, some changes do falter, but remaining idle in certain regards is an even bigger detriment to the species imo...as a whole.

reply to post by UberL33t


I totally agree with peer reviewed studies being important to establish the efficacy of modern drugs. The problem I see is that once something has been on the market too long, no patents are left, sub-quality drugs will pop up that might not necessarily treat a condition as well, but it will be pushed because of the money put into r&d and the monopoly seen after until the new patent wears out.

Not to mentioned that no one is going to spend money doing clinical trials on drugs/natural products which can't be patented.

I'm not usually the person arguing grand conspiracy in the medical industry -We're all on fire scream bloody murder they'is trying to kill us-

But...

It's simply well documented facts that this happens. The number of criminal charges laid on drug companies is staggering, fraud, bribes to doctors, etc...

It's all there in black and white if you research it.

reply to post by boncho


I agree, no matter the arena, there will be those that try to corrupt it. But, I don't think that is the goal nor is it the prevalent characteristic when we're speaking of those in positions to be Big Brother and so on with most of what has been discussed in this thread. I suppose it is all in how one perceives.

Admittedly there is plenty bad that goes on but I feel there is equally just as much good occurring if not more that will keep us as a civilization from ever having to endure an Orwellian existence. It hasn't been a smooth transition and will continue to have its trials and tribulations so to speak, but to get there change has to happen sometimes for better sometimes for worse In the end and though not necessarily religiously speaking, I still manage to maintain an element of faith (though sometimes tested) that we'll prevail over petty differences and our self entitlement(s).

reply to post by UberL33t


You have a very clear and relevant message in your OP... They can't just sit around combing over everyone. Here is my caveat with the whole thing though. Positions of extreme power draw the most corrupt people to fill them. I recently spoke about this in another thread that deals with computer surveillance:

The last time it was getting tabled it also required ISPs to upgrade their systems so they kept records of every users online habits which had to be stored in massive data modules. This not only is violation of privacy, it gives an unfair advantage to larger ISPs that have more capital to work with installing and maintaining the systems.

One of the major weaknesses with a system like this is the possible corruption within ISP companies themselves, someone who works at one of these corporations in theory, could find a way to access the stored information and have access to a mountain of personal information from credit card numbers, to personal contact information, right up to daily habits.

If the Catholic Church, the TSA and Boy Scouts have taught us anything, it's that delinquents are naturally drawn to careers that give them access and control over other people's lives.

If you give people the tools to act like gods, they will abuse the power. By creating these systems you may not have widespread injustice, but corrupt groups and individuals will be able to do 10x the damage.

Consider this as well, a person can get profiled, and start building up man hours assigned to his case. Even should the person be mostly benign, to justify the time spent, authorities may simply build a case just to satisfy their quotas, or to keep their performance reports top shape.

I truly believe that 90% of the population put under a microscope will net some behaviour that is anti-social or borderline criminal. It may be as innocent as given underage relatives a beer when they're at your family bbq, or it may more worse. The point being, is no one can follow the thousands of laws that have been put on the books, not even lawyers themselves are familiar with all of them.

Essentially, the more high tech big brother gets, along with the added bureaucracy which increases, nearly anyone could be manufactured into an enemy of the state.

(Or maybe I'm watching too many movies. )

Originally posted by UberL33t

Originally posted by davjan4
All those traffic cams? Hooked together in a single netowrk. Think they have a human look at every speeder then manually send a ticket? Nope. Camera reads the plates when speed exceeds a certain limit. Or when you fail to stop at a stop sign. My wife got one of those. She just did a "rolling stop". They were even kind enough to send a copy of the picture. Now who looked through vids to find one person doing a rolling stop? Nobody. The software did that. And how else could they catch a rolling stop unless the cam was recording constantly?

No need to look all the time. Just when you want to find someone. Then do a search for the plates. They'll know where you traveled over the entire country. At least most of it.

edit on 28-10-2012 by davjan4 because: sp

Your wife, whom I am sure is a model citizen (that was sincere and though may have appeared sarcastic was indeed genuine) broke the law. Therein she got a ticket, regardless of just being a rolling stop, it's still against the law. Unless I am wrong and she is not a model citizen and is trafficking ICBM's across the country, why would "they" or anyone want to follow her travels pray tell?

Agreed that the ticket was deserved. My point is that they have the ability to see wherever you car has been. And if it's regestered to you, they assume you were in it. You're liable. How could I prove we loaned out the car that day and it was our friend and not my wife? Yeah, it was her, but it may not be next time, since we do loan it out sometimes.
And I don't like that. It un-nerves me to know that someone can type in my plate # and see every single camera I've passed by, probably going back years. It's just creepy that they can do that.

Originally posted by Rightwing
Bring it on 1984!!! Prisoner 1983/12/14/ you are not doing your creases correctly!

Hey, 1983/12/14. That's my birthday! Are YOU spying on Me?!