Who was Jesus Father, and who is Jesus??

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by DelayedChristmas

 

my take on how Jesus can be fully man and fully God:

Greatest I am recommended the book, 'Jesus Wars' to you 10 days ago on the "in the hands of the Romans" thread.
I was wondering if you have read it yet.
I just downloaded the Kindle version of it last night and haven't gotten to far into it yet.
It seems like it should be a good introduction into the general topic of the question of Jesus' nature.
I've studied quite a bit into it over the last few years just reading what I could find available on-line. It is pretty much a hit and miss sort of thing and not that easy to find when you are actually trying to.

edit on 27-10-2012 by jmdewey60 because: add Bible quote: "For the creation eagerly waits for the revelation of the sons of God." Romans 8:19

Hmm, I have sent you a PM regarding this post. Actually, I think this book would help in my research paper on how the political move of nationalizing Christianity manipulated the beliefs of the faith. Thank you for putting this forward.

reply to post by godlover25


Very interesting. I did a thread similar to this one and was thinking of this from another perspective. LINK My conclusion on the matter was that we are all part of this same loaf of bread as 1 Corinthians calls it. Jesus is a manifestation of God's Holy Spirit within the shell of a kinsman. The Jubilee Laws requires it for salvation from another master. God had to come as one of us to redeem us from the current land owner. With that said, we are all cut from the same loaf and we are all part of the spirit that made Jesus. The difference is that Jesus was the last Adam and the first new Holy Spirit incarnated into flesh. God created us in His image, yet Jesus was God imaged correctly. We will all find this new robe when we reach salvation from this current order.

1 Colossians 1:
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Follow the progression. Jesus, pictured above, was begotten by God. Jesus then is the Father of mankind. We are one with our father, just as Christ is one with His. We are the loaf of bread in multiplicity. Christ is cut from God. We are cut from Christ. As Christ is, so shall we be.

God has one Son. Jesus then has one Son in Adam. Adam then has many from one. We are the body of Christ if we return to our Father, just as Jesus was able to return to His. We follow this path to knowledge by experience, just as the LORD Jesus had to do by Shepherding his flock. God is the central hub of all the Cosmos and I assume this will repeat in us as we inherit our mansions in heaven. We are the seeds and we will inherit this:

Deuteronomy 4

19 And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars—all the heavenly array—do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the Lord your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven. 20 But as for you, the Lord took you and brought you out of the iron-smelting furnace, out of Egypt, to be the people of his inheritance, as you now are.

reply to post by godlover25

He also claimed to be God, He forgave Sins, and He supplemented OT Laws (Only God can do these things) so Jesus claimed to be God many many times!

Just because Jesus forgave sins and supplemented OT laws doesn't mean Jesus was God.

Jesus also said
By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

It means Jesus did all that he did because he heard from God who told him. He was given power to do so by the One who sent him.

If the CEO of your company gives you the authority to take certain decisions, it doesn't mean you are the CEO just because you were given authority, does it?

If your CEO instructs you to pass on his message to someone, it doesn't mean you are the CEO just because you are speaking his words, does it?

reply to post by godlover25

I've heard people say Jesus had a different "father" from the "violent" God of the OT.

YHWH is not violent, because if He was, Jesus would be violent, because Jesus is God (YHWH).

I realize that most Christians throughout Christian history did make that equation (OT YHWH = NT God the Father). I think that explains the piratical attitudes and murderous actions that Christian Popes and Monarchs have exhibited throughout the Christian dominated West (500s - present). Short example of effects of Papal Bulls eg. Romanus Pontifex of 1455.

The Papal bull Romanus Pontifex of 1455 has served as the basis of legal arguments for taking Native American lands by "discovery", and continues to do so today. The logic of the rights of conquest and discovery were followed in all western nations including those that never recognised papal authority. This continued under the Americans after they established the United States. The U.S. Supreme Court ruled in the 1823 case Johnson v. M'Intosh that as a result of European discovery of lands not owned by Christians, the ownership and rights to the lands went from the original European conquerors to the Americans by treaties made with the European conquerors; the Native Americans had no say in these discoveries or treaties, nor any rights as non-Christians to the right of title to the land. They only had the right to occupancy in their native lands, as long as permitted by Europeans and their successors to remain there. Since "discovery gave an exclusive right to extinguish the Indian title of occupancy either by purchase or by conquest", they could and would be kicked off the land at any time the Americans felt the need to do so. This is and has served as the basis for federal Indian law since 1823[4]
Romanus Pontifex - America

The differentiation of OT YHWH from Christian God in the minds of modern man is largely responsible for the toleration of Christianity by non Christians. Do you really want to jeopardize that tolerance?

I'll give you an "out" and also a clear choice.

It is written about the OT God of Israel:

Exodus 24:9 Then Moses, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel went up. 10 They saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was like a paved work of sapphire stone, like the skies for clearness. 11 He didn’t lay his hand on the nobles of the children of Israel. They saw God, and ate and drank.

It is written of the NT Jesus Father God:

John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The one and only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him.

The choice then is: Is the God of Gospel of John your God or the character of Exodus your god? (note: you don't have to answer that if you don't want to. It's my question and I for one don't particularly feel like answering other people's questions that don't apply to me)

Personal Opinion Addendum

The concept of monotheism as an abstract concept is morally neutral. Yet when the names of Bronze Age and Iron Age deities with their Bronze Age tribal morality become identified as the actual one and only, that's when human culture and morality suffer the extreme retardation of any chance for moral development.

I use the word retardation, because for the most part, humans have developed a moral sense which is more refined than their Bronze Age deities. The pious then tend to project their own morality retroactively to their deities.

Moral development of the deity comes from the humans and not the other way around.

"Give me that old time religion?" I don't think so.

If you want to get a firm grasp on who and what Jesus is, you have to combine the new testament with the old testament and understand what is being said. Isaiah lays it down plainly so all who could know who he is from Isaiah chapter 1 to chapter 66, but the meat of the arguement can be found in chapters 42-45.

Jesus is the Word, or the Voice of God. The Torah made flesh, or you can even say he is the Teaching made flesh. Both God and Teaching. The Memra (or Logos) is the light of the world. Throughout the old testament we see God condemn Israel for failing to hear his Voice (his Teacher). In the new testament we see the fulfillment of his Voice and his commandments in Mattew 22:35-40:


35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”

37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

Before the advent of the second covenant there had always been a veil between God and man. The veil between God and man after the birth of Christ was Jesus and we see when God began to walk amoung men as Jesus, that veil was still in place, but Jesus revealed the Father to Phillip in John 14 (the veil opens for a glimpse at the Father) and we see that the Son of God (Light of God) is the physical manifestation of the Father, and his Glory and his Glory is his Light. With the death of Jesus on the cross for our sins the veil was ripped from top to bottom signifying that men were no longer cut off from God, and Jesus assumed his Godhood once more and God dwelled amoung men for 40 days as he was before he became a man, in the form of the Almighty.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


I get so sad reading through these posts and replies to my thread,

All I did was state facts, and people treat me as if I'm speaking like a mad man.

Oh well, I did my part, I told the Truth and did my best to spread the LORDS Message,

All you people who deny Him, just know, you will face him, you will answer to him, you cannot run, you cannot hide, I pray you wake up before it's too late.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Jesus is the Word, or the Voice of God. The Torah made flesh, or you can even say he is the Teaching made flesh.

That is not a Christian philosophy but a product of Messianic Judaism.
The word Torah does not come up in the New Testament.
The NT never says Jesus is the Word. (the Logos was God)
Jesus did not come to give an example of how to follow the Torah.
The words of God were spoken with Jesus' mouth, by logic, since what Jesus was fulfilling from the so-called Law, meaning the book of Moses, was the prophecy that The Lord would choose one from among his fellows to have the spirit of God and to say the words that The Lord would have him say.
Of course Jesus was not using that same terminology to describe what was actually happening in his life, but was saying God and Father. Jesus himself, as explained in the NT, was given the title above all others of: The Lord.
In practical terms, if you were to consider his history as the man, Jesus, and to project those later revealed realities retroactively, then the words he spoke were his own, though he did speak them for the benefit of the One who sent him, which was his heavenly father, otherwise, God proper.
So as Paul explains in the NT, there is really no intermediary, such as Moses was with the Torah, but someone who was at once god (of the godhead), and man. The result being a superior expression of the law that Jesus was describing, which is a fundamental law of a spiritual nature, which until then had to be tediously extracted from Moses by the best intentioned experts of the law.

reply to post by pthena


Taking scriptures out of context and trying to use them against the Truth is exactly what Satan did and what you're trying to do now,

I won't explain to you how you're doing that or give you explanations for the scriptures you posted, as nothing will convince you at this point, aside from the Almighty Himself intervening on your behalf....

And something tells me your pride won't allow you to repent and seek the Face of the One who created you, the One who gives you breath, the One who gave you your "intellect", the One you so despise.....

Psalm 53:53 The fool has said in his heart,
“There is no God.”
They are corrupt, and have done abominable iniquity;
There is none who does good.

2 God looks down from heaven upon the children of men,
To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.
3 Every one of them has turned aside;
They have together become corrupt;
There is none who does good,
No, not one.

4 Have the workers of iniquity no knowledge,
Who eat up my people as they eat bread,
And do not call upon God?

Originally posted by godlover25
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

I get so sad reading through these posts and replies to my thread,

All I did was state facts, and people treat me as if I'm speaking like a mad man.

Oh well, I did my part, I told the Truth and did my best to spread the LORDS Message,

All you people who deny Him, just know, you will face him, you will answer to him, you cannot run, you cannot hide, I pray you wake up before it's too late.

Get used to that, and when you have those saying that, you have other people attacking you and calling you a cultist, like the fellow below your post i quoted.

All they are is mind games, don't fall into the trap.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


Very used to it by now brother,

I'm a seasoned battle vet on the front lines of the war of God vs Satan,

Luckily for us, we already know the outcome and who wins and where we are headed, some of the ones in the darkness know too and it makes them all the more wilder and insanely mad and hate filled....

Ephesians 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age,[a] against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

14 Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; 18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints— 19 and for me, that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

If you want to get a firm grasp on who and what Jesus is, you have to combine the new testament with the old testament and understand what is being said. Isaiah lays it down plainly so all who could know who he is from Isaiah chapter 1 to chapter 66, but the meat of the arguement can be found in chapters 42-45.

If anyone wants a "grasp" of what Jesus was about, I would recommend reading what he said about himself.
Jesus freely used imagery from well known scripture like Isaiah to make points to his audience in a way they could understand. Jesus did not feel restrained by those words but could reinterpret them as he wished.
Those chapters you cited are about Cyrus doing the will of The Lord to decree that the city and temple were rebuilt, and throws in that they (the Persians) had made the Babylonians go from being happy to sad, as seemed a just punishment for what they had done earlier to Judea.

Throughout the old testament we see God condemn Israel for failing to hear his Voice (his Teacher).

That is what John 1 is talking about, that the light was there but the world perceived it not.

Ive post on this topic before. Just to be truthful. I'm in no way ready to debate or battle theory's in the bible. But just to point out. Jesus never once said I'm god. Jesus never once im God the father. Jesus never said I create everything in the world. Jesus plain and simple is God'is true only son. Why because that what Jesus says himself over and over. As the OP said Jesus pray and he didn't just pray and he talk to God. Called God his own father, and Jesus worship God. Jesus felt forsaken by God. People can't ignore the fact that the gospels says son of God in talking about Jesus in almost every page. Jesus calls god his own father. Jesus says he came down from heaven not to do his own will but the will of him who has sent him. Jesus is
Clearly given power by God
To do anything he judges right making him
Like
God all and power but end the end get his spirit and will for
God father.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

In the new testament we see the fulfillment of his Voice and his commandments in Mattew 22:35-40:

This was an expert in the Law, Law proper, meaning what Jesus specifies in his reply by saying "the Law and the Prophets" which is the basic sort of thing as what we think of as the old testament today.
My guess is that the "test" by this person of Jesus was really to trip him up to find some charge against him.
Jesus has to be careful about what he says, so he answers the question directly, rather than giving out what his teaching is, but what is being asked about "the Law".
The Law, is something Jesus knows and understands so can pick out the important parts.
An important thing to notice is that Jesus does not give a single law as "the greatest" but gives two, since that way he is doing more than just answer a question about the Moses law, but can throw in rather unobtrusively his "greatest", and really only law that he gives his disciples, to love one another.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Before the advent of the second covenant there had always been a veil between God and man.

There wasn't really, ever since the destruction of the first temple by Nebuchadnezzar.
The shekinah never returned to the rebuilt temple, so the veil was more to just go along with tradition, to have a proper temple like what was there before.
There were gods, that is described in the old testament, where the definition is rather loose, where it could be any being higher than a normal human being, and at least in one famous case is used for high government officials over Israel.
God proper, as in the Father Jesus referred to, would have been veiled but not in a literal sense with some sort of fabric or sewn together skins, but probably something like being in a remote, inaccessible place like the highest heaven where only the most pure and holy can exist.

The veil between God and man after the birth of Christ was Jesus . . .

That makes no sense because there was no necessity to shield people from God since they were nowhere in proximity of God where they might be destroyed. Maybe you mean the flesh was some sort of barrier to God inside Jesus somehow.
That doesn't make sense either. That is making Jesus' body somehow unattached to his person, which would make him not really a human since humans have their body as part of them, and all of them if you are looking at it from a purely physical point of view.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

. . . God began to walk amoung men as Jesus, that veil was still in place, but Jesus revealed the Father to Phillip in John 14 . . .

Not God proper, who would be who Jesus would have referred to as his Heavenly Father.
Now if you want to say, god, with a lower case g, and not as a proper name, then sure, a member in good standing of the godhead was walking about earth as an ordinary man. Jesus, was as a human, the same person as he was when he was in heaven with God, but the New Testament explains through Paul in Philippians, that he had emptied himself and took the form of a servant. To me, that means that he relinquished whatever powers and authority he had by nature when in the earlier form which was of a god.

This other part is just absolutely ridiculous and has nothing to do with the Bible and I have to assume it is the sort of happy-talk the Jews engage in at your meetings, where they try every means possible to eliminate Jesus as even being a person.

reply to post by godlover25

I won't explain to you how you're doing that or give you explanations for the scriptures you posted . . .

You do realize this is a public forum, right?
That means that you can defend your position, and hypothetically at least, hundreds of people can read it and be convinced by it, regardless of whether the person you are addressing directly accepts it or not.
That is the assumption I operate under so don't get overly concerned if people don't accept my points but i do get rather annoyed that there are people here who keep spouting off a line they have to have gotten from meetings where the enthusiasm of the crowd make people more readily buy into beliefs that don't hold up under calmer circumstances.
If you drink the Kool-Aid, you should at least be willing to explain why you do exactly other than it feels good to do what everyone else is doing.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

. . . and we see that the Son of God (Light of God) is the physical manifestation of the Father, and his Glory and his Glory is his Light.

You are taking some liberty, apparently with John 1, since the Light, or Logos, it explains at the very beginning is God.
It never says Jesus is the Logos, even if almost everyone uncritically sits quietly when people claim he is.
What it does say is that this Logos came about as dwelling amongst us. You can say that Jesus personifies the intention and purpose of the Logos in that he perfectly accepts that metaphorical light of the world and transmits it in word and action.
Jesus in his person, physically exemplifies the character of God. That can be in a non-literal sense manifesting God but he was not somehow being God.

With the death of Jesus on the cross for our sins the veil was ripped from top to bottom signifying that men were no longer cut off from God, and Jesus assumed his Godhood once more and God dwelled amoung men for 40 days as he was before he became a man, in the form of the Almighty.

Huh? This is all made up stuff.
Jesus never quit being a person of the godhead, to lay it aside and take up later.
What you appear to be doing is annihilating the person of Jesus as never having actually been a person and that during that time there was no "Almighty". You have driven off the reservation and have struck out on your own writing your own Bible as you go along.

reply to post by godlover25

Taking scriptures out of context and trying to use them against the Truth is exactly what Satan did and what you're trying to do now,

He is not taking scriptures out of context.... hes just reading from the bible, as far as I can see.
In one place it declares people saw God and in another place, Jesus says "no man has seen God".

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

. . . calling you a cultist, like the fellow below your post i quoted.

All they are is mind games, don't fall into the trap.

It is asking how you come up with your preaching, which has to be from a cult since you have this inability to explain how you came up with these ideas. The mindless repeating of ideas you get from meetings is the definition of a cult.
Not being a cult is having rational explanations based on the thought process you went through in order to arrive at your conclusion.
This is supposed to be a discussion forum, not a preaching blog so people asking you to engage in a discussion is not "attacking" you.