New Statistics Call for Reduction in Abortion Limit

New Statistics Call for Reduction in Abortion Limit

www.christianpost.com

(The Christian News source highlighted the material more efficiently. The non-christian news link is, of course, linked. )

The new figures, released by the Office of National Statistics, showed that babies born before the 24-week abortion limit had a better than 1 in 10 chance to survive and has produced calls from prominent government officials to reduce the current limit.

The statistics show that out of 750 babies born before 24 weeks in 2010, 92 lived long enough to see their first birthday.

(visit the link for the full news article)


Related News Links:
www.christianpost.c om
www.christianpost.com
www.ons.gov.uk
www.guardian.co.uk

Hmm, weird. I am personally not in favor for abortion in any case, except, rape and the saving of the mother's life. Hypocrite? I hope not. I could not imagine what I would feel if I was a woman who was raped.

However, it seems here babies are surviving, at least, until their first birthday if they are aborted at 24 weeks old. How could this not be murder? A few of them are obviously living until their first birthday. Aborting a baby at one years old will likely land you behind bars. Why? Because it is alive / human (scientifically). So is a baby not alive / human at 24 weeks old? A few of them are surviving being prematurely aborted or born at 24 weeks old. In my opinion, this is murder, and i personally wish they would all be charged for murder ( the doctors) and the mothers charged with manslaughter.

Oh, wait. We cant. Why?

Abortion is 27 Percent of Deaths in England, Wales

The report listed a total of 493,242 deaths in England and Wales from "all causes" in 2010. This number includes 224 babies who died "before, during or after birth." However, the 224 babies who died were not represented in the 189,574 human deaths from abortion in England and Wales in 2010.

Adding the total number of pre-born babies who died as a result of abortion in 2010 to the total number of human deaths in England and Wales for that same year produces an overall total of 682,816 deaths.

This leads to 27 percent or 189,574 of the 682,816 deaths being caused by abortion.

So ... i dont think putting them in jail would be an option any way. However, i think abortion is getting out of control. If my mother aborted my fetus or whatever you want to call me at 24 weeks old .. guess what? I wouldn't be here right now. She killed me.

Killing babies is fun. They are like candy. Right? They aren't human beings, they have no rights. They are a parasite. Should be obliterated. Stupid parasites.

Last i check, you voluntarily have sex (most of the time). Soooo, you voluntarily should accept that your potential baby ( if accidentally impregnated) has basic human rights. Guess what. If a mother is pregnant, at any stage, and she is murdered. He / she gets charged with BOTH the murder of the unborn child and mother.

If the mother kills the baby, it is okay. She chose to kill it. It's her right. To bad for her baby who doesn't have any rights. It doesn't even have the right to live or attempt to live. Awesome civilization we have; yeah, mankind is really taking steps forward.

www.christianpost.com

reply to post by milkyway12


I agree completely with your viewpoint, however...I worry about the impact to society and on the unwanted babies if abortion would be overturned and women were forced to bear children they do not want. I read the headlines about the horrific abuse and torture and mutilation happening to children who were brought into this world by people clearly unable or unwilling to be proper parents, and even by people who chose to be parents via adoption or foster care with hidden intentions to harm. I don't know what is worse, killing unborn babies or changing things so they are brought into this world only to suffer horribly because they were born with the disadvantage of lacking one or more parents who truly wanted them and were prepared for the tremendous responsibility of having them.

I'm a Christian and abortion is not something I would likely choose for myself (at my age I've seen and experienced enough to have learned to never say "never") but when I think about the ramifications I discussed above I don't see myself supporting legislative efforts to change any abortion laws at the moment. I believe if we want change we need to start in our homes, shaping ourselves and our children to understand all the responsibility and duties to physical and psychological health that come with sex. A great many people seem to regard it as a recreational pastime that should carry no consequences with it. Attempting to legislate sexual/reproductive choices on people with that outlook just never really seemed to work, even when abortion was illegal.

Now we both seem to be getting off topic, so let me return to it. You are presenting report of new evidence that we may need to reevaluate and possibly change our current time parameters for fetal viability that are used in determining the limit at which an abortion can legally take place. That is indeed interesting. Technology has clearly become a game changer as we've developed better methods of keeping pre term babies alive and thriving. It will likely be science and not religion that someday puts the definition of a human life back very closely to the time of conception.

They shouldn't be performed past 8 or 9 weeks. That is when brain growth is occurring. Statistically most abortions ARE performed early and most would never abort an older developing infant.

Here in Canada, unless the unborn child is going to hurt the mother or is a still-birth, Abortion is not done after the end of the first trimester. (12 weeks) In most cases, the clinic will attempt to do this even sooner than the 12th week. (As Unity posted, between 3-9 weeks)

My own personal opinion on the matter of abortion is not of any relevance here but I feel that people are FAR too concerned with what other people do. The choices that other people make. When it doesn't effect them in any way, shape or form. How does a woman having an abortion somewhere really effect anyone but that woman (and/or the baby daddy)? It just boggles my mind that other people care so much about the choices made by someone they do not know and will likely never know.

ETA: I chose to read the article first then post. I then went back to read your opinions and I am feeling sorry that I did... You seem to put a lot of anger and resentment towards a choice made by someone that has no effect on you.

reply to post by Unity_99


I am avidly pro life.. However I personally think that since Abortion will never be made illegal the pro life crowd and the pro choice crowd need to come to some sort of understanding... Personally I think this should be no abortions after the first trimester... Even that is a travesty but it's better than nothing..

Also, too many people these days are using abortion as a form of birth control... There should definitely be a limit to the number of abortions a person can have within their life and that number should be very low...

Anyone recall the story of that abortion addict not long ago?

Abortion addict story

This is a perfect example of what we are talking about here. 15 terminations in 17 years..

You'd think she'd get herself fixed by now.

Originally posted by DaMod
reply to post by Unity_99

 

This is a perfect example of what we are talking about here. 15 terminations in 17 years..
You'd think she'd get herself fixed by now.

I know in some places a doctor will not perform a tube tie or a hysterectomy on a women until they reach the age of 30 or have had atleast 2 children. Not justifying 15 terminations in 17 years, because clearly any doctor who is aware of the actions of this woman, should have no problem "fixing" her given she obviously does not want children.

Originally posted by TheSparrowSings
Here in Canada, unless the unborn child is going to hurt the mother or is a still-birth, Abortion is not done after the end of the first trimester. (12 weeks) In most cases, the clinic will attempt to do this even sooner than the 12th week. (As Unity posted, between 3-9 weeks)

Keep in mind that 'not done' is not the same as 'illegal'.

It is perfectly legal in Canada to have an abortion at any time during the pregnancy.

reply to post by TheSparrowSings


I understand what you are saying but remember to many people abortion equals premeditated murder and they believe our laws should be changed to recognize it as such. Its not that they want to control someone's choices per se, but they want to stop sanctioned murder of life forms they believe are human beings fully vested with constitutional rights like the rest if us.

Someone murdering someone somewhere else is of no actual impact on an individual who is not involved or related to the killer or the victim, but society as a whole and our laws take the view it DOES have an impact on us as a collective and threatens our individual liberties should murder go unpunished, which if i am not mistaken, is why murder cases are tried as state vs. defendent or people vs. the defendant. In other words as a society we attach a consequence to an action we agree as a whole weakens or threatens us as a collective, as well as individuals.

Generally, where they differ from people who take a more pro choice stance is on the definition of what a human being is and when rights of recognition as such should be conferred.

As far as I know the limit is the first trimester anyway in the USA. Only if the baby is mentally retarded, downs etc can it be done outside of that window (Or of course already dead and this is usually termed DNC anyway).

Muff Romney is a good reason why it should never be outlawed and also as a poster child for some parents to abort.

Originally posted by peck420

Originally posted by TheSparrowSings
Here in Canada, unless the unborn child is going to hurt the mother or is a still-birth, Abortion is not done after the end of the first trimester. (12 weeks) In most cases, the clinic will attempt to do this even sooner than the 12th week. (As Unity posted, between 3-9 weeks)

Keep in mind that 'not done' is not the same as 'illegal'.

It is perfectly legal in Canada to have an abortion at any time during the pregnancy.

Yes, and a doctor reserves the right to legally remove a baby from a woman's womb should the baby be still-born (dead) after this point in time. But ethically, there are not many doctors who would view this as the way to go, if the child and needed to be removed (emergency) it would be through means of Cesarian and kept alive in incubation. So there is a difference between "can have an abortion at anytime" and "abortions will ALWAYS be done at anytime." Why shouldn't it be legal to remove something hazardous from your system if it is already dead or can be kept alive outside the womb?

reply to post by SheeplFlavoredAgain


Thankyou for respectfully addressing my point. I will keep that side of the argument in mind when I read the replies of people who are not "pro-choice" per say.

Originally posted by TheSparrowSings

Originally posted by peck420

Originally posted by TheSparrowSings
Here in Canada, unless the unborn child is going to hurt the mother or is a still-birth, Abortion is not done after the end of the first trimester. (12 weeks) In most cases, the clinic will attempt to do this even sooner than the 12th week. (As Unity posted, between 3-9 weeks)

Keep in mind that 'not done' is not the same as 'illegal'.

It is perfectly legal in Canada to have an abortion at any time during the pregnancy.

Yes, and a doctor reserves the right to legally remove a baby from a woman's womb should the baby be still-born (dead) after this point in time. But ethically, there are not many doctors who would view this as the way to go, if the child and needed to be removed (emergency) it would be through means of Cesarian and kept alive in incubation. So there is a difference between "can have an abortion at anytime" and "abortions will ALWAYS be done at anytime." Why shouldn't it be legal to remove something hazardous from your system if it is already dead or can be kept alive outside the womb?

What?

You stated that abortions past 12 weeks don't occur in Canada. They do, approx 30% of the known gestational age abortions are past 13 weeks.

Seriously, what is the rest about?

reply to post by peck420

You stated that abortions past 12 weeks don't occur in Canada. They do, approx 30% of the known gestational age abortions are past 13 weeks.

And those 30% of known gestational abortions that are done after 13 weeks are generally not done for the means of birth control. They are done because the child is already dead, a severe risk to the mother, or (in some cases, which I am not sure I agree with) diagnosed with Downs Syndrome or other severe genetic disorders. Now, unless you are a doctor here in Canada and I am missing something that I have discussed on several occasions with an OBGYN here, I don't see how these types of abortions could be considered murder or deemed not necessary. I see no reason why those types of abortion should not be performed after the first Tri-mester. As for the other 70% of Abortions in Canada... most likely performed before between 1-12 weeks.

And you did say that it is LEGAL to perform an abortion at ANYTIME during a pregnancy in Canada. And I said, unless in extreme cases, it may be legal but would rarely be done. Don't you think doctors have ethics too? And if a women is going to jump from doctor to doctor, just to find one that will do it for whatever reason, then it is clear nothing will change her mind anyway.

Abortion law in the US is tied to viability by supreme court decisions. With advances in medicine, it is only a matter of time before all abortions are again open for a ban, as all foetii will be viable. I think this is a good thing, because viability does not make sense as a limit anyway. The question of what really gives humans right to life will have to be answered this time. Id go with cerebral cortex development, at 5 months of pregnancy. It only makes sense that criterion for beginning of life should be based on the same thing as criterion for legal and medical death.

Originally posted by TheSparrowSings
reply to post by peck420

 

You stated that abortions past 12 weeks don't occur in Canada. They do, approx 30% of the known gestational age abortions are past 13 weeks.

And those 30% of known gestational abortions that are done after 13 weeks are generally not done for the means of birth control. They are done because they child is already dead, a severe risk to the mother, or (in some cases, which I am not sure I agree with) diagnosed with Downs Syndrome. Now, unless you are a doctor here in Canada and I am missing something that I have discussed on several occasions with OBGYN here, I don't see how these types of abortions could be considered murder or deemed not necessary.

Are you serious?

Of the abortions that do allow public data reporting, only 6% list health issues...mother and fetus combined.

Inadequate finances: 21%
Not ready for responsibility: 21%
Woman's life would change too much: 16%
Problems with relationship or unmarried: 12%
Too young, not mature enough: 11%
Woman has as many children as she wants: 8%
Fetus has health issues: 3%
Mother has health issues: 3%
Pregnancy by rape or incest: 1%
Other: 4%

reply to post by peck420


It seems we could debate this point to death without actually getting anywhere edgewise, so I will stop taking the bait and talking about things that I feel are personal issues and not governmental affairs. (Or legal affairs) Just my opinion, you do not need to accept that. But to further educate myself on the reasons for your opinion I would like the read some of the sources you get your information from.

You really need to ask yourself if the statistics shown are representing the reasoning for abortion after the first Trimester? Are they? If so I would like to see the study, stating, that these 30% of abortions that are done after 12 weeks are for the reasoning's that are stated in your last post. Or if the statistics in the last post covers ALL of abortions done. Then I will research from there and maybe begin to understand your perspective a little more.

Originally posted by Unity_99
They shouldn't be performed past 8 or 9 weeks. That is when brain growth is occurring. Statistically most abortions ARE performed early and most would never abort an older developing infant.

Brain cortex does not function until after 20 weeks.

One of the problems with the "federal oversight" of abortion is that no matter how much they make it illegal, it won't stop women from back-alley or self-inflicted abortions.

There are very dangerous methods of poisoning and crude extraction, and a frightened young woman who can't deal with the idea (for whatever reason) of having a baby, or come up with a mature, viable plan to care for an unwanted child will still be able to find a way to "free" herself of the burden.

At least with legal methods (and I am talking about first-trimester outpatient medical procedures) the woman's heath is protected. You really can't "force" a woman to give birth to a child. If desperate enough, despondent enough, she'll find a way.

There are many people who are not equipped to be adequate parents, and it makes me sad what they'll do to avoid it. What's needed is more education on alternatives.

The prohibition of abortion is a lose-lose situation. A pregnant woman uses a coat-hanger or poison, she may die. She goes to an illegal "abortionist", who may or may not be a quack, she might die. Or be maimed forever. She gives birth to an unwanted child, that child may suffer incredibly.

Education about the options of: adoption, parenting, and prenatal care are critical for a healthy society.

If they make it totally illegal, what do they do with a woman who tries and fails? Incarcerate her?
What is the penalty? A death sentence? It doesn't make sense. Religions try to emphasize she'll burn in hell if she carries it out. Correct me if I'm mistaken, but there are also religious consequences for suicide.

I do absolutely protest late-term, elective-procedure abortion in the case of an otherwise healthy child. It's barbaric and sick. If it comes down to the mother might die, or the baby might die or be totally deformed or brain-damaged, or both, I really don't know what to think.

Sometimes I feel technology and medical procedures are more than humans are really able to "handle" in an ethical sense.

My point is that legislation will not stop the behavior. Just like drugs and prostitution.....laws don't stop people from doing it anyway. Education is key.

As if there werent enough abortion threads on ATS....someone has to start a brand new one, rather than adding to the screeds and screeds of existing threads and posts going nowhere but heated up.....

My beliefs are my beliefs - I may not agree fully with abortion, but i would never stop another person from having one.

We're kinder to the unborn than we are to the living.