The Dibbuk Box with Jason Haxton; New information and Theory

Originally posted by GreyGoo
reply to post by door_to_anima

 

Hey man i'd just like to say good on you

and i really appreciate the effort you have put into this.

Thank you my friend

If only more people responded like you (not just to me, but everyone on the net) it might restore my faith in humanity

Originally posted by door_to_anima

Originally posted by GreyGoo
reply to post by door_to_anima

 

Hey man i'd just like to say good on you

and i really appreciate the effort you have put into this.

Thank you my friend

If only more people responded like you (not just to me, but everyone on the net) it might restore my faith in humanity

I really didn't intend to reply again on this thread. I mostly have lurked waiting for something I could read.

But I would like to ask you if your faith in humanity can only be restored via dishonest dialogue?

Or could humanity do better to give constructive criticism without having the recipient feel that they are under attack? On a website where minds are expected to be discerning, you have to expect some criticism. Otherwise, all you are left with is a site of love and acceptance. That is more geared to various emotional support forums, not ATS where we "deny ignorance".

Regardless, if ones faith in humanity could truly be effected by strangers on an internet forum, this would be a magnificently sad world.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan

Originally posted by door_to_anima

Originally posted by GreyGoo
reply to post by door_to_anima

 

Hey man i'd just like to say good on you

and i really appreciate the effort you have put into this.

Thank you my friend

If only more people responded like you (not just to me, but everyone on the net) it might restore my faith in humanity

I really didn't intend to reply again on this thread. I mostly have lurked waiting for something I could read.

But I would like to ask you if your faith in humanity can only be restored via dishonest dialogue?

Or could humanity do better to give constructive criticism without having the recipient feel that they are under attack? On a website where minds are expected to be discerning, you have to expect some criticism. Otherwise, all you are left with is a site of love and acceptance. That is more geared to various emotional support forums, not ATS where we "deny ignorance".

Regardless, if ones faith in humanity could truly be effected by strangers on an internet forum, this would be a magnificently sad world.

I guess you missed the part where my post was first compared to spam because it contained a YouTube video, and the part where there was a comment made only to insult my hair.

My faith in humanity is dashed everytime I see this kind of bs, and I see it everytime I go to watch a video of something, where people are discussing video games, music, or even comments on a forum somewhere; the problem being, by posting almost anything, your more likely to be attacked than to have someone thank you for taking the time to post something. "Deny" that!

Constructive criticism is fine; that's not how this thread started, you know it, and anyone who can read know's it. Don't try to turn this into me fishing for complements or some bs, I started a thread, was attacked for it, defended myself, and some people recognized what had happened and "thanked" me for me effort in providing some content. THAT's what got me to say that it restored some of my faith in humanity. I suggest you go back and read the thread again, as a whole, digest it, and then post your thoughts.

I hate to be a dummy....and I know that it's my ADD..but, I didn't really follow how you arrived at how his grandmother may be who's trapped in the box vs. the original story of it having been cursed when he bought it.

Originally posted by BobM88
I hate to be a dummy....and I know that it's my ADD..but, I didn't really follow how you arrived at how his grandmother may be who's trapped in the box vs. the original story of it having been cursed when he bought it.

Hi bob, I'll try my best to explain it; I actually had to go over that part in the book several times myself because it was a little confusing how that part was put together.

I think it was in Kevin Manis's initial ebay description (though it could be from Jasons research in the book, can't remember) Kevin mentioned that when he had the box in his possession, he would have these hag dreams; an old lady with a small frame, whose face would morph into monstrous shapes and beat him, and when he'd awake, he'd have real bruises.

Well Kevin had also given the box to some family members (can't remember which ones) can't remember all the details off the top of my head, but basically, at least 3 or 4 people he knew had taken the box off his hands, had the same dream of the hag and had given the box back to Kevin.

So fast forward to when Jason buy's the box. Jason has the same experience with the hag dreams. Now fast forward a great deal; Jason had been researching the box for years and in his search he tracks down Kevin's Brother. At this time Jason is curious about this "Havala" character who supposedly was the first person to own the dibbuk box; it was her box that was sold to Kevin at the liquidation sale in Kevin's initial ebay story.

At this point in the story, Jason basically finds out that there was no Havala; she was a fabricated character on Kevin's part. However, Kevin had a grandmother named Ethel who also had, according to the family, had been held in a concentration camp, had some sort of magical power that she practiced, or rituals (each family member gave a different answer), she was Jewish and died at the age of 103. Basically, she had the backstory of Havala, only, she wasn't a stranger who's items were being sold off at a liquidation sale, she was Kevin's grandmother. Havala is Ethel, which also means Kevin lied about where he got the dibbuk box.

Jason asked Kevin's brother for a picture of Ethel, and it was then that he realized that the picture of Ethel was the same women that appeared in his hag dreams.

Now, Kevin, the family he had given the box too, and Jason had all experienced the hag dreams, and the hag according to Jasons account, was Ethel (Kevins grandmother). So given that when people had the dibbuk box in their possession they would have a disturbing dream of Kevins grandmother, that's how we came to the theory that Kevin's grandmother is in the box, or at least bound to it in some way shape or form.

I hope that makes sense; it is a bit confusing sounding:S

reply to post by door_to_anima


Yes, that does make sense! Thank you.

Now, why would she beat her own grandson? Makes you wonder if its possibly something else using her "image", you know? Or, maybe in binding her soul to the box she lost her humanity? Then again, she may have just been a mean grandmother in life too...

I'm trying to recall now, and I can't...was the conventional wisdom prior to finding the backstory was inaccurate that there was a demonic entity in the box? Or was it always assumed to be a malevolent, but human, spirit?

Originally posted by BobM88
reply to post by door_to_anima

 

Yes, that does make sense! Thank you.

Now, why would she beat her own grandson? Makes you wonder if its possibly something else using her "image", you know? Or, maybe in binding her soul to the box she lost her humanity? Then again, she may have just been a mean grandmother in life too...

I'm trying to recall now, and I can't...was the conventional wisdom prior to finding the backstory was inaccurate that there was a demonic entity in the box? Or was it always assumed to be a malevolent, but human, spirit?

Well most of this is speculation based on the little bit of fact we have to go on, but there's enough in the story to make me think that at least some of it is true, and that perhaps, Kevin created fake persona's to be the true people involved. One example is Havala matching Ethel.

So maybe everything he said regarding Havala(Ethel) was true; That Ethel really did go to a concentration camp, that she really did try and capture a dibbuk in the box to use as a fuel to fight the nazi's. It's not hard to imagine that the ritual involved to summon an evil spirit probably belongs to a dark cult practice anyway; so maybe in doing so, Ethel had to sacrifice her own soul, or maybe she wasn't even aware, and by taking part in that ritual she forever bound herself to that box; or for that matter, maybe the dibbuk uses Ethels image as a form of mockery. Hell, maybe it was only Kevin who is into the dark rituals and he somehow conjured his grandmother and bound her to the box; realizing he was way over his head he decided to get rid of it.

It's all speculation at this point, but did you hear the part where the street walker had confronted Kevin in front of his furniture store, pointed to the basement window (where he kept the dibbuk box) and warned him to be careful down there or somebody's going to get killed? He said he saw 8-10 people in black cloaks, walking in a circle with increasing speed until it was not humanly possible to go that fast. Kevin was the only one with access to that basement, so it is my belief, that what the street walker saw was a residual haunting of perhaps, the ritual that took place to trap the dibbuk with to begin with. If you remember, Ethel was in a group with several people leading up to the Holocoust and they all helped with the ritual; so this could be a replaying of that event, bound to the box.

I am of the belief that Kevin knew the whole story because he was close with his grandmother. Kevin inherited the box; he didn't want to tarnish his grandmothers name, but in all good consciousness could not give the box to anyone without warning them, so he used fake names for his grandmother and others involved with the story, as well as altering the story of how he got the box to avoid suspicion.

Oddly enough the episode of the Dybbuk Box is on right now on Paranormal Witness. I had seen the episode before and wished I remembered the details enough for questions, so it looks like now I can ask some.
When Kevin had possession of the box, he opened it and found the objects inside. Does Jason have those items now? I recall now that Jason did have the contents looked at but I am still curious as to what they were used for.
To me it looked as though someone sealed something in the box with a ritual, and by opening it they released it.

I may have more questions, in the mean time I may go back and watch your video.
Thanks for reminding me of this story

reply to post by door_to_anima


I'm going to have to listen again, I think I missed some excellent details.

Originally posted by BobM88
reply to post by favouriteslave

 

I'm not asking for a full blown review...just wondering if you liked the movie?

2nd

As far as a horror movie goes it was pretty scary but some was unbelievable because proper Jewish practice was not followed. I think if your making a move about a Jewish Exorcism you should at least portray it correctly. It must be done with a minyan (10 adult men) and an experienced Rabbi. In the movie its just one brave son of a Rabbi all by himself. Things don't go too well and if you ever see the movie you will realize this in the end.

reply to post by favouriteslave


Thank you, Favouriteslave! Definitely on my must watch list then!

Originally posted by shadow watcher
Oddly enough the episode of the Dybbuk Box is on right now on Paranormal Witness. I had seen the episode before and wished I remembered the details enough for questions, so it looks like now I can ask some.
When Kevin had possession of the box, he opened it and found the objects inside. Does Jason have those items now? I recall now that Jason did have the contents looked at but I am still curious as to what they were used for.
To me it looked as though someone sealed something in the box with a ritual, and by opening it they released it.

I may have more questions, in the mean time I may go back and watch your video.
Thanks for reminding me of this story

edit on 24/10/12 by shadow watcher because: I remembered more of the story

Well I guess in a way Jason still has those objects; Jason has buried the dibbuk box in a location only he know's about so that it doesn't fall into the wrong hands. Previous to that, he had created a "shell" to seal it, so whatever's inside "should" be trapped within it's confines, but if you listen to some of the recent stories of people involved with Jason in interviews and the like, it may not be safe after all; my own story serving as a possible connection to the box, though admittedly it could just be coincidence...

Anyway, back on topic: Jason had kept all of the items that came inside of the box where they were. I believe the contents were 2 different US hey pennies (can't remember the year), a lock of blond hair, a lock of black hair, a strange candle that had octopus like tentacles to serve as it's base, and there could possibly be some things I'm forgetting about.

I'm pretty sure you hit the nail on the head about the items being used for a ritual; In fact, in the podcast I had with Jason I feel like I remember him telling us that the hair in particular could be used for a ritual, something about the contrast between the blond and black hair was symbolic of something.

Thanks for the reply.
I was wondering if Jason ever followed up with Brian's health issues after he bought the box from him.
Both he and his roommate Sam kind of kicked a hornets nest by having that party and had everyone mock the spirit.
The kid apparently suffered a bit not to mention his electronics going all to hell. In spite of sealing the box away, I think without a similar ritual the activity would not be properly contained. Jason seemed to me not to be the type to have a ritual preformed upon the box, it begged the question to be asked.

Hogwash!Hogwash!Hogwash

Hogwash!

reply to post by door_to_anima


I have never heard more utter nonsense and error associated with the story of the Dibbuk Box, and my family. There is more to research than simply saying you did some, especially when you have obviously done none at all.

To be certain -

My brother was never a law enforcement officer - he was an MP in the Marine Corps.

My Grandmother not only had no interest whatsoever in anything having to do with Kabbalah, or mysticism, she didn't even keep kosher. And, she never owned, or worked in a curio store or any retail establishment.

The women in the story never tried in any way, shape, or form, to trap a dybbuk that they could use as a weapon against the Nazis of World War II.

The story you attempted to refer to about the rabbi who made what is known as a "Golem", is the story of Rabbi Judah Loew, who supposedly created a golem to protect the people of Czechoslovakia. The Golem is a celebrated character in Czech history - so much so that there is a statue of a golem that was constructed and stands at the gates of the city of Prague to this day.

You have no reason for spreading all of the untruths, fabrications, false statements, and outright lies about the story of the Dibbuk Box, or about me and my family - especially since I am just a phone call, or an email away.

If you ever want the real story; the entire story, as I am the only one who claims to have spoken with Sophie and the other members of Havela's family, you are welcome to conduct some research in earnest by contacting me.

If you don't like what I have to say, perhaps I can point you in directions that will allow you to verify the facts you so eagerly trounced and twisted during your podcast.

The original story is much more entertaining than the one you are trying to propel.

Welcome Mannis
Since you are associated with this story so closely, could you comment on what the Paranormal Witness episode covered? I'm sure if needed you could have a moderator verify who you are so we can have a good discussion about the box. The story intrigues me.

Originally posted by Mannis
Hogwash!Hogwash!Hogwash

Hogwash!

reply to post by door_to_anima

 

I have never heard more utter nonsense and error associated with the story of the Dibbuk Box, and my family. There is more to research than simply saying you did some, especially when you have obviously done none at all.

To be certain -

My brother was never a law enforcement officer - he was an MP in the Marine Corps.

My Grandmother not only had no interest whatsoever in anything having to do with Kabbalah, or mysticism, she didn't even keep kosher. And, she never owned, or worked in a curio store or any retail establishment.

The women in the story never tried in any way, shape, or form, to trap a dybbuk that they could use as a weapon against the Nazis of World War II.

The story you attempted to refer to about the rabbi who made what is known as a "Golem", is the story of Rabbi Judah Loew, who supposedly created a golem to protect the people of Czechoslovakia. The Golem is a celebrated character in Czech history - so much so that there is a statue of a golem that was constructed and stands at the gates of the city of Prague to this day.

You have no reason for spreading all of the untruths, fabrications, false statements, and outright lies about the story of the Dibbuk Box, or about me and my family - especially since I am just a phone call, or an email away.

If you ever want the real story; the entire story, as I am the only one who claims to have spoken with Sophie and the other members of Havela's family, you are welcome to conduct some research in earnest by contacting me.

If you don't like what I have to say, perhaps I can point you in directions that will allow you to verify the facts you so eagerly trounced and twisted during your podcast.

The original story is much more entertaining than the one you are trying to propel.

Sorry you feel that way Kevin; though I can understand why you would.

Just so you know though; as stated in our podcast, everything we speak of IS speculation based on what we learned from Jason Haxton's book and what we were able to learn from Jason Haxton himself. We are NOT investigators and never claimed to be; we read books and google like everyone else does, only we make a podcast about it. Our show for the most part just let's people be a fly on the wall during what would be one of our telephone conversations.

That having been said, assuming it is all wrong, I would absolutely love to hear the truth, as it is a really interesting story. In fact, if you would like, I invite you to join our show so that you can clear everything up and tell your side of it, what do you say?

If that interests you, fire me an email at: [email protected] and we can work out a time to do a podcast via skype.

Sorry didn't watch the video but:

Is this the same box that was featured on Paranormal Witness?

reply to post by BABYBULL24

Yes, this is the same story.
I would love to hear the first hand account from Kevin, Brian, or Jason. Here's hoping to hear more.

My brother was never a law enforcement officer - he was an MP in the Marine Corps.

My Grandmother not only had no interest whatsoever in anything having to do with Kabbalah, or mysticism, she didn't even keep kosher. And, she never owned, or worked in a curio store or any retail establishment.

The women in the story never tried in any way, shape, or form, to trap a dybbuk that they could use as a weapon against the Nazis of World War II.

Kevin, Have you read the book "The Dibbuk Box" by Jason Haxton? Because the things you mention above^ is straight out of the book, and not something we fabricated for the podcast. If I have to, I can tell you the pages that the details are listed on in my kobo digital copy. Truth or not, we did not invent these details, they were in Jason Haxtons book; and though Jason tells the story with Havala being the one who attempted to trap a dybbuk, he later basically concludes that your grandmother Ethel, and the character Havala are one in the same; In fact, he even outright says that in our podcast. You've met Jason before, surely you recognize his voice in the podcast?

The only angle that Ryan and I speculated on, was that given everything in the book were true, it would be possible that Ethel is tied to the box; everything else is taken straight from the book, much of which Jason speaks about in our podcast. So while I understand your anger, it is misplaced.

I took a quick look online for your email but didn't find it. If you would like to tell me your side and or get it out there in another one of our podcasts my offer still stands. Either leave your email for me to contact you, or you can contact me at: [email protected]

reply to post by shadow watcher

The Paranormal Witness episode covered the timeline from when I purchased the box thru the time I sold it on ebay (the buyer's name was not Sam-by the way) and on to the time when the box was finally purchased by Jason Haxton, the current owner.

I'm not going to get into maniacal in-depth discussions about the box, but I will say that this crap about my Nana, my grandmother, is just that - CRAP!

She was never in a concentration camp; never worked in a retail store; never practiced, or even studied Kabbalah, or mysticism, and died at the age of 105, not 103. Furthermore, she wasn't a hag even at the time of her passing.

I don't know why it is that just because people can't wrap their heads around the story of the Dibbuk Box, they feel it somehow has to fall to some kind of a reflection of my personal life and upbringing, but it doesn't. And, the more one tries to make that association between my family and my life, and the family involved in the original story of the Dibbuk Box, the less sense any of it will make. Why? Because they are vastly different and separate stories.

Whatever. Believe whatever you want. I guess what I'm really trying to say is, "If you're going to talk about reading my stuff, take a moment and actually read it."

Then, you can say anything you want and all I will respond with is, "Thanks for reading my stuff."