Christians: What's your relationship with the dead?

reply to post by JesuitGarlic


You have stated that 70% of students who go to university with strong faith lose their faith when they learn about science's view of evolution.

I personally do not believe in Genesis' creation story, NOR DO I BELIEVE that evolution and a Divine Source are mutually exclusive. There is no reason to doubt evolution OR THAT IT WAS THE PLAN of "God" to begin with, in my opinion.

Bible passages are not evidence of anything but someone's opinion.

I understand that you are devoted to your faith, and feel your beliefs trump everyone else's. You've been corrected by FlyersFan on your statements about Catholics, and she would know, based on her background.

I AM NOT A CATHOLIC, and I don't believe the Pope is god's rep on earth. I believe the Catholic church as a whole is a sham, its top leadership is corrupt, and that it is a for-profit business, period. I tend to believe also that any organized religion is, likewise, based on fabricated manipulation of human inventions designed to shame, control, and coerce.

Having a relationship with those who have passed on is a tradition of humanity that predates Christianity by eons. It has nothing to do with evolution. It has to do with love.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by WhisperingWinds

 

Are you sure you are correct about that statement..just wondering where the stats come from, and if they are actually legit.

A) I did not make the statement. JesuitGarlic did.
B) I was not addressing you in my response to him making that statement
C) Your mockery of my grief for my late father is appalling

I'm sorry.. ifI didn't understand ..but reading the quote you made below it would appear that you are making the statement, as it is not in quotes, and some of it merely highlighted , as if to stress that statistic.

Why is it, do you think, that "70% of Christian[sic] lose their faith in their first year of university upon encountering evolutionary theory." ???????? Erm Uh Ahem..... BECAUSE IT MAKES BETTER SENSE, and also, they're not blind followers? Maybe? Those two little issues?

Also the assumption that I am mocking you, and your dead father is totally off base. If you had read my first post, I mentioned that I sometimes feel the dead are trying to tell me something, but it could be simply my imagination. My father is also dead, and I miss him greatly, and sometimes I do feel like he is trying to communicate to me, but as I said earlier, I cannot be sure about that. It was a simple attempt on some humor regarding what I said in MY earlier post, and trying to keep this on topic, which you seem to want so badly.

I hope I made myself clear as to why I addressed your post, and why I took it as if you were stating in that quote that those statistics were something you believed to be true, because the above words I quoted by you, sure read as if you do.

reply to post by WhisperingWinds


Though she and I butted heads on more than one occasion, I'm sorry to see that WhisperingWinds is no longer with us. One wonders why, as there have been no ill behaviour of recent note, but who knows.

Farewell, I'll miss looking for my "time machine angle" to counter your statements.

reply to post by adjensen


I thought I was your "Time Machine Angel."

I too am sorry to see the ~ next to her avatar. Can't help but wonder why.

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by adjensen

 

I thought I was your "Time Machine Angel." :@@

It's a common theme The first time I invoked it was shortly after joining when someone tried to convince me that Jews had written the New Testament during the Middle Ages.

As a historian, one of the things that I hope I can do when I'm dead (nice segueway to getting back on topic, eh?) is being able to revisit the past. I would love to go back and hang out with my buds, the Second Century Gnostic Christians, and see what that whole scene was about. At the very least, be able to talk to someone who was around in that time and get some of my questions answered.

reply to post by adjensen


Brilliant segue! ....
Interesting how over the centuries some parts of grief and dealing with loss have evolved (if you will).

It seems, though I may be wrong, that every culture ever discovered or described has some kind of death ritual. I feel that my deceased pets/animal companions still visit from time to time, at certain occasions or in specific circumstances.
(As well as friends and loved ones....of course. Just in case it wasn't apparent.)

I suppose I'm simply over sentimental and melodramatic (my mom used to say).......
but, it certainly feels real to me.

I want to see the past, too.

reply to post by JesuitGarlic

You realize that you are quoting the bible saying that the bible is the only source of information. That's like a muslim quoting the Qu'ran and saying that the Qu'ran says it's the only source of information. You can't prove a source is legit by quoting that source saying it's legit. It doesn't work that way.

Quoting people from the bible claiming that Adam and Eve existed means that those people are just regurgitating stories. That's not proof that Adam and Eve existed. That's just re-telling the same tale over and over ..

ETA ... also you cherry picked 'do not go beyond what is written' .. I could easily cherry pick 'hold tight to traditions that have been passed down' and 'not every truth that Jesus taught is in the bible because all of the books in the world could not hold his teachings'. Scripture can be made to say whatever you want it to .. to support whatever position you want.

reply to post by JesuitGarlic

Catholics don't worship idols. Catholics can believe that God used evolution or creationism .. it doesn't matter as long as the Catholic believes that God was the author of life. God isn't going to send people to hell for worshipping him on a Sunday and not a Saturday. If God would be that petty then he'd not be the kind of God I'd want to worship.

reply to post by FlyersFan

I could easily cherry pick 'hold tight to traditions that have been passed down' and 'not every truth that Jesus taught is in the bible because all of the books in the world could not hold his teachings'. Scripture can be made to say whatever you want it to .. to support whatever position you want

Well said...

Have you read my story?

I think you'd like it

A story of a snake...

reply to post by FlyersFan

You can't prove a source is legit by quoting that source saying it's legit. It doesn't work that way.

FlyersFan, I am moving you to a position where you are forced to question your entire faith of who you think God is. The God I believe in is powerful enough to preserve His recorded truth from corruption, He is all knowing so that when He affirms the creation account He is not just 'regurgitating old stories', He was there and He did it so He should know what happened. 'Those people' are God and His divinely inspired prophets. By implication you are saying that Jesus is not all seeing and all knowing, did not bring us into existence, is a false prophet, His messengers are also false (not divinely inspired).

You have just been maneuvered into a position that has destroyed any resemblance of Christian faith and 'believing in' God. The only way to extricate yourself out of your created mess is to then agree with me on the creation account and then by extension that the fallen angels can deceive people by appearing attractive and giving no warning (of HATE or whatever) ala the incidence of Eve with the Serpent, Satan.

Good luck with trying to pull yourself out of that one...

I will get back to dismantling your other queries and text evidences later on...so far though as I go in order of what you have posted....you have no leg to stand on.

reply to post by JesuitGarlic


You seem a bit delusional and self aggrandizing with your "you have been maneuvered" statements, but...

What FlyersFan is pointing out has nothing to do with the Bible, but with the method of argument.

For example:

Me: I am the world's greatest guitarist.
You: By what authority do you say that?
Me: What, the word of the world's greatest guitarist isn't good enough for you?

It's called circular logic.

Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by JesuitGarlic

 

You seem a bit delusional and self aggrandizing with your "you have been maneuvered" statements, but...

What FlyersFan is pointing out has nothing to do with the Bible, but with the method of argument.

For example:

Me: I am the world's greatest guitarist.
You: By what authority do you say that?
Me: What, the word of the world's greatest guitarist isn't good enough for you?

It's called circular logic.

And an appeal to authority fallacy to boot.

It appears, at least through my eyes, that people only live after death in our memories. By praying for them, holding memorials, and imagining them in our thoughts, we give them afterlife. If someone's existence is forgotten, for instance like most deceased humans throughout history, what kind of afterlife remains for them?

The afterlife is in the memory. That is the extent of most, if not all, relationships with the dead.

reply to post by adjensen

What FlyersFan is pointing out has nothing to do with the Bible, but with the method of argument.

The whole premise of my discussion here is to show that all the fallen angels have to do to destroy someone is find one chink in the armor and everything else falls apart. One of the chinks they have exploited is this issue of the state of the dead. All they have to do is impersonate the dead, give someone some warm fuzzy feelings and what do you know, because of that 'experience' now they doubt the authority of what is written in the Bible.

I have shown in this particular instance that to doubt the authority of God now leds someone to conclude that the creation account is BS that the stories in the Old Testament are BS that when God gives clears commandments to do this or that in the NT they are now ignored....why? Well if the Bible got it wrong on the issue of the state of the dead then they could have got it wrong on other things so that means you can pretty much make up your own religion (or just follow anyone who claims to have the keys to Heaven and seemingly backs it up by having lots of money and power to boot).

What FlyersFan and you (and all others in the opposition camp on this issue) don't realize is that it will come down to keeping the Sabbath or not (when the antichrist comes on the scene). 'The wages of sign is death'. It is not so much a day that is of significance, it is that the issue of the Sabbath tests pretty darn completely someones 'belief in' God.

- If you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15)

- Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. (Revelation 22:14)

- For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not burdensome. (1 John 5:3)

- We are sure that we know Christ if we obey his commandments. The person who says, "I know him," but doesn't obey his commandments is a liar. The truth isn't in that person. (1 John 2:3-4)

- Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus (Revelation 14:12)

- "...but if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments" (Matthew 19:17)

- Brethren, I write no new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning (1 John 2:7)

By saying you don't think a day matters to God you are saying that God's commandments don't matter to Him, that showing love to Him doesn't matter, that entering into His 'Life' doesn't matter, that honoring the day he set aside to be a memorial to His creative power doesn't matter (I could go along this train of thought much more).

The upshot of it all is, because of the deception of the fallen angels even coming across as supposedly 'good' or loving...they have planted the seeds for your destruction come the End Times test from the anti-christ (when Satan presents himself physically to the world impersonating Christ).

What are you going to put in your hand (actions) and your forehead (mind, prefrontal cortex), obedience and trust in God or the Beast?

Concerning the keeping on the Divine Law

Deuteronomy 6:
4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:
5 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes[forehead , NIV 1984 edition].

Deuteronomy 11:8 Therefore you shall keep every commandment that I have commanded you today...
...18 Therefore you shall lay up these words of mine in your heart and in your soul, and bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes [foreheads , NIV 1984 edition]

Exodus 13: 9 (and verse16) And it shall be for a sign unto you upon your hand, and for a memorial before your eyes, that the LORD'S law may be in your mouth: for with a strong hand has the LORD brought you out of Egypt.

Revelation 9:4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

Revelation 13:16 He [The beast] also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead

----

“Sunday is our mark of authority...the church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact.” — Catholic Record of London, Ontario, September 1, 1923.

“Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change (Saturday Sabbath to Sunday) was her act...And the act is a mark of her ecclesiastical authority in religious things.” — H.F. Thomas, Chancellor of Cardinal Gibbons.

God's mark

Ezekiel 20:12
Moreover also I gave [5414] them my sabbaths, [7676] to be a sign [0226] between me and them, that they might know [3045] that I [am] the LORD [3068] that sanctify [6942] them.

Ezekiel 20:20
And hallow [6942] my sabbaths; [7676] and they shall be a sign [0226] between me and you, that ye may know [3045] that I [am] the LORD [3068] your God. [0430]
source: www.biblicalproportions.com...

What is the word meaning of this strongs #0226 word?

SIGN: Hebrew: 'owth', meaning - sign, token, ensign, mark, a distinguishing mark, signal, banner, remembrance
classic.net.bible.org...
www.blueletterbible.org...

Are you not spiritual Israel (oh whom the new covenant was created for Jeremiah 31:31) or do you reject the new covenant?

Vatican says:

"Is not yet too late for Protestants to redeem themselves. Will they do it?... will they indeed take the written word only, the Scripture alone, as their sole authority and their sole standard? Or will they still hold the indefensible, self contradictory, and suicidal doctrine and practice of following the authority of the Catholic church and wear the SIGN of her authority? Will they keep the Sabbath of the Lord, the seventh day, according to Scripture? Or will they keep the Sunday according to the tradition of the Catholic church, Rome's Challenge p.31

Do you think Rome does not know what it means when they use the word's 'Sign' and 'mark' interchangeable concerning their authority directly pitting themselves up against God's sign/mark (as shown from the analysis of strongs #0226). They know exactly what they are doing in leading people to their destruction (FACT). And I don't want you guys who are earnestly seeking to be destroyed.
----
If FlyersFan or you or anyone here calls themselves a Christian because you 'believe in' God but then hold views which implicate that God's is not all knowing, all powerful, a false prophet ect then you do not in fact 'believe in' God (as I said in an earlier post...what sets you apart from Satan as even he 'believes in' God, in fact he KNOWS it....there is someone more to it that just saying 'I believe in God', in a sense that means nothing, it is what you believe about God that matters and by implication following what He says because you trust it)

But Sunday is not the Sabbath, and no amount of quotes from anyone will make it the 7th day of the week.

Originally posted by JesuitGarlic
The God I believe in is powerful enough to preserve His recorded truth from corruption,

You assume that the bible is straight from God. It's got too many errors and contradictions to be 'straight from God'. It presents myths and summerian and egyptian stories as Jewish history. It was written by men. Inspired by God in some places, but written by men who make mistakes and who let their own bias interfere with telling the truth.

You have given no proof that the bible is straight from God. You have given no proof that Adam and Eve ever existed. You can't quote the bible saying that it is all truth because 1) the bible itself says it isn't and 2) like I said, you can't use a source saying "this is the truth" to verify a source. The muslims do it with the Qu'ran. Is the Qu'ran from God too? (NO)

The only way to extricate yourself out of your created mess is to then agree with me on the creation account

A person doesn't have to believe in an Adam and Eve creation myth in order to believe in God or in Jesus. It doesn't matter if a person believes God used evolution or if God used a 'spot zap' and created Adam and Eve ... as long as a person believes God used some method that He wished to make people ... then that person believes in God.

For the record .. I don't believe in the creation myth of Adam and Eve and I don't believe in Evolution. I don't believe in one theory over the other and I don't disbelieve either. I simply don't care because we will never know the truth of the matter in this lifetime. I know God created people in some manner. That's all I need to know.

reply to post by FlyersFan

You have given no proof that the bible is straight from God

Doesnt The bible define God. If so isnt this a chicken and egg debate?... or should i stick to toast?

Originally posted by JesuitGarlic
One of the chinks they have exploited is this issue of the state of the dead.

The bible, which you hold as 'all authority', has contradictory statements on that.
Also .. the bible itself says that it doesn't 'contain all the teachings of Christ'.
Also .. personal experiences by millions of people around the world support the dead being active and aware of what is happening on earth.

I have shown in this particular instance that to doubt the authority of God ..

I don't doubt God's authority .. I'm just saying that God's authority isn't in scripture that was written by men and it's not being preached by Seventh Day Adventists ministers. God is God. People are people.

Well if the Bible got it wrong on the issue of the state of the dead .

I said that the bible is CONTRADICTING ITSELF on the state of the dead.
I said that the bible doesn't contain all the information about the state of the dead.
The bible even says it doesn't.

What FlyersFan and you (and all others in the opposition camp on this issue) don't realize is that it will come down to keeping the Sabbath or not

If a 'loving father God' is going to send people to hell for having their main day of worship be on a Sunday and not on a Saturday .. then you can keep that 'loving father God'. That's a petty and uncaring God who would do that. No thanks. You keep your 'God' and I'll keep my 'God' .. my God loves people and understands them and isn't so petty as to say that because someone worshipped Him in a church a few hours later than some others, then those who worshipped him a few hours later will go to hell.

reply to post by FlyersFan

If a 'loving father God' is going to send people to hell for having their main day of worship be on a Sunday and not on a Saturday .. then you can keep that 'loving father God'. That's a petty and uncaring God who would do that. No thanks. You keep your 'God' and I'll keep my 'God' .. my God loves people and understands them and isn't so petty as to say that because someone worshipped Him in a church a few hours later than some others, then those who worshipped him a few hours later will go to hell.

So we have some people worship this God and some that God and some another God. Why do we need a God?

Originally posted by AthlonSavage
So we have some people worship this God and some that God and some another God. Why do we need a God?

All these human versions of who God supposedly is ...
All claiming to have the authority or the 'absolute and accurate' holy book ..
Pretty darn amazing .. isn't it?