cosmic rays offer clue our universe could be a computer simulation

Well like the point they made on through the wormhole on this topic, what is the probability that we are within 50 years of creating a self contained virutal reality.

I think this is wishfull thinking, but 100 years isnt.

Completely speculative of course. But fun!

Originally posted by ubeenhad
Well like the point they made on through the wormhole on this topic, what is the probability that we are within 50 years of creating a self contained virutal reality.

I think this is wishfull thinking, but 100 years isnt.

Completely speculative of course. But fun!

That depends on how much is being simulated - today's video games might be described as very low-fidelity virtual reality.

In Computer Science, problems - such as sorting x numbers - are classified into groups depending on how difficult they are. The problem of simulating a quantum system is in the class BQP, which contains problems solvable only by a Quantum Computer - they are too difficult for any traditional computer. Even our super computers would not be able to tackle these problems, they would quite simply not be able to finish - there's not enough time left in the Universe.

In other words, we need a Quantum Computer to perform a high-fidelity simulation of the Universe - this is not a surprising conclusion.

Before Quantum Computer can become a reality - the actual thing, not a toy that fails to exhibit any of the relevant Quantum properties, such as entanglement - we need to solve the problem of noise, otherwise known as decoherence.

You've probably heard that according to the theory of Quantum Mechanics, a measurement changes the state of the system. The qubits that are used by Quantum Computers are subject to this effect, whether in the form of an actual measurement, or any other form of interaction with the outside world.

The problem of decoherence has not been solved. Some people question whether it is even physically possible to eliminate noise from any system beyond a few qubits.

In short, we are in a phase where we don't even know for sure that it is possible to build a Quantum Computer, and even if it is, it's damn hard.

My guess is it will take centuries, if that. Once humans are able to simulate the Universe, what else is there to do? It's the last problem we'll ever need to solve.

reply to post by ubeenhad


"In short, we are in a phase where we don't even know for sure that it is possible to build a Quantum Computer, and even if it is, it's damn hard."

Fair point however what is possible will be achieved, something is only impossible until we learn otherwise. As the song says "Time, is on my side!"

"My guess is it will take centuries, if that. Once humans are able to simulate the Universe, what else is there to do? It's the last problem we'll ever need to solve."

Alan Turing started the ground work 70 years or so ago in this field of endeavor. Computational powers are 1000s if not millions of times more powerfull in this day of age. I would say the singularity is no more than 5-20 years away.

I wonder if Moore's law will apply to quantum computing?

reply to post by andy06shake


The concept of computation has been around for a long time. For example, an algorithm for identifying prime numbers, was described by Eratosthenes around 250BC - see Sieve of Eratosthenes.

Back then they had a description of a computational process by which to identify primes, but lacked the necessary technology to implement it in the form of a physical machine.

In 1994 Peter Shor described an algorithm for factoring numbers into their prime decomposition. As with Eratosthenes' sieve, and thanks to Shor, we know how to compute something that is impossible for us to implement given today's technology - first we need a Quantum Computer. Will it take another 2000 years? I don't know, but it's a distinct possibility.

In any case, singularity in 20 years? Not likely.

reply to post by Legos


"In any case, singularity in 20 years? Not likely."

I cant see why, i mean to me atleast it seems more lightly than a mission to mars or FTL travel. In point of fact the singularity is most lightly a requirement for any kind of FTL travel. Why not 5-20 years? Ansibles will point the way ahead in the field of quantum computing IMHO.

Originally posted by Legos

Originally posted by ubeenhad
Well like the point they made on through the wormhole on this topic, what is the probability that we are within 50 years of creating a self contained virutal reality.

I think this is wishfull thinking, but 100 years isnt.

Completely speculative of course. But fun!

That depends on how much is being simulated - today's video games might be described as very low-fidelity virtual reality.

In Computer Science, problems - such as sorting x numbers - are classified into groups depending on how difficult they are. The problem of simulating a quantum system is in the class BQP, which contains problems solvable only by a Quantum Computer - they are too difficult for any traditional computer. Even our super computers would not be able to tackle these problems, they would quite simply not be able to finish - there's not enough time left in the Universe.

In other words, we need a Quantum Computer to perform a high-fidelity simulation of the Universe - this is not a surprising conclusion.

Before Quantum Computer can become a reality - the actual thing, not a toy that fails to exhibit any of the relevant Quantum properties, such as entanglement - we need to solve the problem of noise, otherwise known as decoherence.

You've probably heard that according to the theory of Quantum Mechanics, a measurement changes the state of the system. The qubits that are used by Quantum Computers are subject to this effect, whether in the form of an actual measurement, or any other form of interaction with the outside world.

The problem of decoherence has not been solved. Some people question whether it is even physically possible to eliminate noise from any system beyond a few qubits.

In short, we are in a phase where we don't even know for sure that it is possible to build a Quantum Computer, and even if it is, it's damn hard.

My guess is it will take centuries, if that. Once humans are able to simulate the Universe, what else is there to do? It's the last problem we'll ever need to solve.

Flawed logic.

Actually hardware is not the issue. You wouldn't have to solve a quantum system, the quantum system would arise because of the coding. The quantum system is a result of the coding, not the other way around.

reply to post by andy06shake


If by singularity you're referring to a technological singularity involving something like artificial intelligence, then yes, 20 years is highly unlikely.

In Computer Science, there is a class of problems that are stunningly difficult to solve, called NP-Complete - they are so difficult that even Quantum Computers would provide no advantage.

Instances of NP-Complete problems of moderate size are solvable one of two ways:
- Alot of work.
- Dumb luck.

Instances of NP-Complete problems of large size are solvable one way:
- Extreme dumb luck, of probability so low it's not even worth trying.

Because intelligence comes up against NP-Complete problems all the time - and since these problems are notlikely to be solvable deterministically and in realistic amount of time - artificial intelligence of a super-human kind has to either:

1. Avoid these problems, thereby being of little value.
2. Take a gambling approach, flipping coins millions of times per second in an attempt to brute force its way to the solution. Will have a very low success rate when the probability is 1 in 2^100, 2^1000 or other unimaginably large numbers.
3. Perform lots of self-driven analysis in an attempt to reduce the number of plausible solutions. Just like humans, requires effort and a bit of luck. Probably the more realistic option, however to get to a point where computers can carry on this type of creative analysis already implies artificial intelligence, hence it will be a slow evolution of computer intelligence before we get here.

That's not to say that computers won't be able to drive science and replace humanity's thinkers, i find that to be plausible, but 20 years is unrealistic. First because we need to match the performance of the brain, second because we need very descriptive and structured data for training, and third because we need to figure out how to combine these into something more powerful than human intelligence rather than just try to match it - not to mention logistics such as funding and deterrents such as human conflict and the like.

reply to post by Legos


We are human remember, quite a lucky group if organized religion is to be believed! LoL

There is nothing new under the Sun, we just need to remember how to build these devices.

reply to post by ubeenhad


Do you want to expand on that?

If you want to argue that we don't need to simulate the quantum world to produce a believable version of the Universe, or that "Quantumness" would be present in the simulation given that it is running in a machine that's within a Quantum-driven environment, then i can certainly entertain that possibility - i'm not a physicist - but the idea that a non-quantum driven simulation would have quantum effects is new to me.

If that's the case then we don't need Quantum Computers, we'll just write some low fidelity simulator, have quantum effects magically show up, and manipulate the simulation to perform quantum computation.

In a sense, Quantum systems track every possible outcome and corresponding probability - this is what QCs exploit - how would this simply arise out of code?

reply to post by Wongbeedman


It kinda freaks me out that we're not falling - not our planet or any of the galaxies. What the heck is keeping us in this position in the universe? It's like everything has found a buoyancy level, but what are we floating in that can hold up whole freakin' planets???

Originally posted by Legos
then i can certainly entertain that possibility - i'm not a physicist - but the idea that a non-quantum driven simulation would have quantum effects is new to me.

Why would the "place" were the computer that runs our simulation have the same laws of physics? And maybe we do, but when we got smart enough to look fundementally enough we noticed something that doesn't logically make sense with the rest of the simulation. But because its a simulation, its fine, but to study close enough shows contradictions in major theories. Our programmers only made it "seem" like their laws of physics, but fundamentally are not.

reply to post by jiggerj

"What the heck is keeping us in this position in the universe?"

That would be gravity would it not? The glue of the Omniverse!

reply to post by ubeenhad


It would not be a simulated reality, more like a fabricated reality - it certainly seems easier, except that our own reality is already a solution to the problem of implementing a system that behaves according to laws and sustains life - a closed system.

I guess if the beings inhabiting this fabricated reality don't ask lots of questions it might be sufficient A virtual reality where we become bacteria for a day seems easy enough.

reply to post by Legos


"our own reality is already a solution to the problem of implementing a system that behaves according to laws and sustains life - a closed system."

Very true and as as we all know entropy of a closed system must increases. Thermodynamics 101! Its a 3d simulation people someone press the back button!

Originally posted by flexy123

Originally posted by dominicus
If we live in a simulation, i think the only way out s enlightenment, or perhaps physical death releases you from the physical dimensions and you get to see behind the veil.

This is *exactly* the point here!

Go look at NDEs and/or other spiritual experiences, heck, even "alien abductions"!

You will find a stunning number of similarities in all those accounts, and I am really meaning "STUNNING". There is a common theme there, that is, that "beyond" this physical "reality" there is the "real" reality, revealing our physical reality as some sort of test/play.

There is common reports about encounters with, yes, entities (our creators??) and, what stunned me most, how many people having such experiences realize (is being shown/revealed) that our life is merely some sort of...let's say, pre-arranged illusion/scenario serving a very special purpose.

From that point of view the notion that our life is sort of a "simulation" makes actually sense...i mean it would maybe sound too "far out" and esoteric otherwise...but the fascinating thing is how such an idea goes so perfectly with all those spiritual experiences ... coincidence?

edit on 13-10-2012 by flexy123 because: (no reason given)

My own NDE and abduction experiences, as well as sometimes lucid portal experiences is exactly that, a much more REAL realm where EVERYTHING makes perfect sense and communicates with PERFECT resonance. A realm where everything is known, a realm of ABSOLUTE TRUTH, hence the screen name.

Originally posted by theabsolutetruth

Originally posted by flexy123

Originally posted by dominicus
If we live in a simulation, i think the only way out s enlightenment, or perhaps physical death releases you from the physical dimensions and you get to see behind the veil.

This is *exactly* the point here!

Go look at NDEs and/or other spiritual experiences, heck, even "alien abductions"!

You will find a stunning number of similarities in all those accounts, and I am really meaning "STUNNING". There is a common theme there, that is, that "beyond" this physical "reality" there is the "real" reality, revealing our physical reality as some sort of test/play.

There is common reports about encounters with, yes, entities (our creators??) and, what stunned me most, how many people having such experiences realize (is being shown/revealed) that our life is merely some sort of...let's say, pre-arranged illusion/scenario serving a very special purpose.

From that point of view the notion that our life is sort of a "simulation" makes actually sense...i mean it would maybe sound too "far out" and esoteric otherwise...but the fascinating thing is how such an idea goes so perfectly with all those spiritual experiences ... coincidence?

edit on 13-10-2012 by flexy123 because: (no reason given)

My own NDE and abduction experiences, as well as sometimes lucid portal experiences is exactly that, a much more REAL realm where EVERYTHING makes perfect sense and communicates with PERFECT resonance. A realm where everything is known, a realm of ABSOLUTE TRUTH, hence the screen name.

Or, not to shoot you down or anything, the dream realm where everything is possible?
And where your subconscious rules everything?
I don't like telling people like you they're wrong because who's to say I'm right, but it does pee me off when people choose to believe that lucid dreaming and sleep paralysis are actual abduction experiences.

Although to be honest, when we are sleeping would surely be the only time that we're aware, or assuming its an actual physical place then sleeping would surely place us in between the two realms? If you catch my drift

Originally posted by Wongbeedman

Originally posted by theabsolutetruth

Originally posted by flexy123

Originally posted by dominicus
If we live in a simulation, i think the only way out s enlightenment, or perhaps physical death releases you from the physical dimensions and you get to see behind the veil.

This is *exactly* the point here!

Go look at NDEs and/or other spiritual experiences, heck, even "alien abductions"!

You will find a stunning number of similarities in all those accounts, and I am really meaning "STUNNING". There is a common theme there, that is, that "beyond" this physical "reality" there is the "real" reality, revealing our physical reality as some sort of test/play.

There is common reports about encounters with, yes, entities (our creators??) and, what stunned me most, how many people having such experiences realize (is being shown/revealed) that our life is merely some sort of...let's say, pre-arranged illusion/scenario serving a very special purpose.

From that point of view the notion that our life is sort of a "simulation" makes actually sense...i mean it would maybe sound too "far out" and esoteric otherwise...but the fascinating thing is how such an idea goes so perfectly with all those spiritual experiences ... coincidence?

edit on 13-10-2012 by flexy123 because: (no reason given)

My own NDE and abduction experiences, as well as sometimes lucid portal experiences is exactly that, a much more REAL realm where EVERYTHING makes perfect sense and communicates with PERFECT resonance. A realm where everything is known, a realm of ABSOLUTE TRUTH, hence the screen name.

Or, not to shoot you down or anything, the dream realm where everything is possible?
And where your subconscious rules everything?
I don't like telling people like you they're wrong because who's to say I'm right, but it does pee me off when people choose to believe that lucid dreaming and sleep paralysis are actual abduction experiences.

Although to be honest, when we are sleeping would surely be the only time that we're aware, or assuming its an actual physical place then sleeping would surely place us in between the two realms? If you catch my drift

edit on 16-10-2012 by Wongbeedman because: (no reason given)

Well, firstly the abduction experiences happened when I was very much awake and not alone. I do know the difference between lucid dreaming and sleep paralysis and NDE's and abductions. It took a lot to mention them and wouldn't do so lightly.

Who knows where and how these things happen, perhaps it is some sort of dimensional realities, perhaps it's something that happens on a sub atomic level of interactions, perhaps it's something to do with neutrinos or light particles. Whichever, perhaps best to refrain from presuming things of other's experiences. Just because you perhaps haven't experienced such things doesn't negate the fact that others have.

Originally posted by purplemer
reply to post by mideast

 

Stick a pin in your hands and you will see it is not.

and the sensation of the pin exists where..? The absract of reality is only created in our heads from information going in. The only perception of reality we have is a made up one....

The way we see it is different , he way we define it is different , the way it is , is the same.

That is what I am arguing about. The way it is. The very basic things we all have been informed that is.

This order of geometry and mathematics existed thousands of years ago. Many people could discover them before we did.

But now that we have discovered it . We may think we are putting the order and we want to bring it all into our little hole of our eyes. The more we discover the more we feel to refuse praising god and we feel to praising scientists.

This is sad

We are being blessed by god moment after moment.

That is the ultimate rule.And he is letting us do what ever we want and this is far beyond an imaginary simulation.

And you needed to know this to be more modest and praise god ?

I don't think so.

You needed to bring the whole existence into a little definition of yours to .............

What ever it is , it seems knowing more is taking more modesty from our hearts and bringing more illusions could be more likely.

21st century arrogance and self involvement.

We deserve Jesus.

Posters keep describing a singularity where artificial intelligence surpasses human. How would we know? My computer can already beat me at chess most of the time. I can tell that its a bot only because it uses the same opening moves for each depth level. A simple pseudo random number generator would fix that problem. I've watched people that believe they are artistic and creative, spend hours captivated by simple lisp program loops.

Can you spot all the bots on ATS?

That might be a more descriptive title for the thread.