Palestinian Hip Hop - "Who's the Terrorist?!"

reply to post by goh13

That land must have been populated by SOME people, no? Or was it just empty with no one in it? And when you take something that another person lives with/on/in, you are stealing. Please do say the logic you used here.

If were going to talk, we have to start from the beginning, and the beginning is 1880-1947, when Jews began migrating to the Holy land.

Where did they move? They moved to North Eastern portion of what after 1920 became known as the "Palestinian Mandate". It was only this area they moved to, as they were barred by the British from moving into other areas of the Palestinian mandate.

In 1922, the eastern portion of the mandate was splintered from Palestine and became 'transjordan'.



See those blue areas? Those are areas PURCHASED by the Jewish agency for Jewish migration.

Now, keep in mind, the massive eastern portion of the mandate was seceded from the greater mandate and made into a state. But who were to be the citizens of this nascent state? A measly 300,000, mostly bedouin and eastern Palestinians. Years later, when Jordan wanted to add to it's slim population, did the thought of naturalizing Palestinian Arabs enter the equation? Nope. They went out of their way to take Arabs from other parts of the Arab world, from Iraq, Syria, and North Africa, rather than help solve the Jewish/Arab conflict in Israel, and bring an end to the miseries of Palestinians.

Also, since this shows the type of politics that were going on behind the scenes, the people who got control of Jordan - and who are still in power - were the Hedjaz Hashemite dynasty. One son (or prince), Faisal, was awarded by the British with Iraq, while another, Abdullah, became king of Jordan. Is that fair? Did a prince from northwestern Arabia have any legitimate claim to the 'transjordan'? If you say yes, then you acknowledge that being Arab is more essential than being from any particular corner of the Arab world.

In 1946, the kingdom of Jordan was established. In 1947, the UN partitioned what was left of the Palestinian mandate, evenly, for a Jewish state and a Arab Palestinian state. The Arabs rejected it.



On May 10th, 1948, David Ben Gurion declared Israel a state. The area declared a state was a very tiny portion compared to the present day size Israel.

This was the area claimed by Israel in 1948. Significantly smaller than the area under Arab control.



So before the war, the vast majority of what was left of the Palestinian mandate was in Arab hands. They could have let the Jews have the small corner that they had - and in fact - an area roughly equivalent to the land purchased by the Jewish agency, and leave at that. All would have been happy.

But the Arabs do not want the Jews to be happy. For them to be happy, would require them acknowledging a Jewish right to some portion of the holy land. They deny that right; they've even gone to incriminating lengths to
'revise' history, denying that a Jewish state in the area ever existed. If that doesn't work, they themselves claim to be the descendents of the Jews of Roman era Judea. In short, the Palestinians will go to whatever length to prevent the Jews from ever existing as a self determining nation-state in the middle east.

The Arabs started three different wars between 1947 and 1949. The final war was waged by Egypt, Transjordan, Iraq, Syria and Lebanon, on Israel, a mere 5 years after Europe tried to exterminate the Jewish people. Was there even a modicum of sympathy for the plight of the Jews? Arabs will usually respond "why should we suffer for the sins of Germany"? This is a problematic response because, one, the Jews had been already migrating to the Holy land 60 years before the shoa (holcaust), and two, Arabs have yet to acknowledge the fact that there current views towards Jews have been conditioned by Nazi propaganda in the region during the war years, megaphoned by the agents of Haj Amin Al-Husseini. There are many interesting books on this subject: The Farhud: Roots of the Arab-Nazi Alliance in the Holocaust, by Edwin Black; The Nazi Connection to Islamic Terrorism: Adolf Hitler and Haj Amin Al-Husseini, by Chuck Morse; Jihad and Jew-Hatred: Islamism, Nazism and the Roots of 9/11, by Mattias Kuntzel; Nazi Palestine: The Plans for the Extermination of the Jews in Palestine. Suffice to say, it is a well documented FACT that today's Arabs perpetuate Nazi-Era theories about Jews, and Zionism, and are the foremost proponents of holocaust denial.



This was the 1949 armistice lines after the fighting ended. The Arabs began a war, lost a war, and finally agreed to these lines.

Israel never stole the land, because they DIDN'T start the war. You can't accuse them of theft if they came into possession of these lands through fighting a DEFENSIVE war. Once the war was finished, Israel maintained the lands they won. It was their right to retain possession; if not, for what purpose did 6000 Jews die? You don't give land back to a belligerent enemy. You keep the land because you rightfully won it, and even more importantly, for your future defense it is crucial that you keep possession of lands that have strategic importance.

Same thing with 1967. The Jewish state was again provoked into a war when Egypt illegally blocked the strait or tiran - a strait which Israel used to transport oil from Iran. It was a vital waterway for Israels economic survival. The Egypts broke international law by blocking it; they also generated concern when they amassed 100,000 soldiers and hundreds of tanks at the Israeli border.

dontreally: That’s a very well done post. Gonna read it and research it later because I forget my history very easily :p. Star for effort.

CE: Ehh, wouldn’t them that. Not very mature to do so, really. Maybe mis-informed? Badly done? Something along these lines.


Well, I can’t wait to check everything you said, dontreally. Don’t wait for it though, probably gonna do it in the weekend. I do not support what Isreal is doing but this, this can be mind blowing and there is no feeling in the world better than someone changing your opinion on something

reply to post by goh13


HAHA



Gotta say I love the optimism.

reply to post by dontreally


Your cartoon maps equate to the same as Bibi's propaganda crayon art at the UN:



Let me show you some real maps and proof of Palestine:







Scroll to the right>>>>>>>>




Your off topic propaganda disgusts me yet I feel obligated to respond to it.

How are those SSRI's treating you...not too well obviously.

reply to post by Corruption Exposed

here is no feeling in the world better than someone changing your opinion on something

What proof are you trying to convey by posting 'terra sancta, palistina'?

We can enter an honest conversation whenever you want to.

How are those SSRI's treating you...not too well obviously.

That was an ad hominem attack. Not classy at all, corruption.

reply to post by dontreally


You speak about class but look at your classless rantings over the last few pages.

You attacked me first and the thread proves it, you went off the handle again which is why I asked about your meds that you openly discussed in various threads so it's not like I am talking about "secret info".

You always talk smack and get upset when you get smacked back...too bad we couldn't get along since we are pretty much neighbors

reply to post by Corruption Exposed

You attacked me first and the thread proves it, you went off the handle again which is why I asked about your meds that you openly discussed in various threads so it's not like I am talking about "secret info".

Being on SSRI's during a depressive time in my life - which had it's basis in certain personal losses - over 7 years ago, has nothing to do with the topic.

That is a very wanton place to go to in a conversation.

In any case, address that point I asked: What proof are you trying to convey by posting 'terra sancta, palistina'? I'm curious. You seem to think there is something significant in posting that, I'm just curious what it is.

Since I know you'll probably dodge the question, this is it:

You're pointing out that a Palestine existed. OK. Fair. We agree in general in the truth that a place called Palestine existed. This is a general assertion, which is extremely light on details.

For example, lets look at the region this name refers to: the Muslim middle east.

We have to go back into history to appreciate what Palestina means. You say that if the name existed, then a people also called "Palestinians" must have existed. But there are hundreds of scholars who claim that is a complete distortion. They point out that the area only assumed the name "Palestine" under Ottoman control. The Ottomans resurrected it; furthermore, it was only understand in the sense of "administrative region'. And it was not just called "Palestina", but "Syria Palestina", which referred to the total area of Syria, Lebanon, Israel, and Jordan. The administrative capital of this region was in Damascus - very very far away from Palestine. All the Arabs who lived in the region were not bound by any "palestinian identity", hence, they had no problem being ruled by Arab Effendis hundreds of miles away in Damascus. The fact is, the culture, religion, and identity of the people from Israel, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon, is practically IDENTICAL. They follow the same religion - Sunni Islam. This, btw, is the major credential of assimilation in the Muslim world. They are also Arabs, another major reason for community. What's left to differentiate them? Culture, or Language? They spoke practically the same Arabic, and if there were cultural distinctions, they were too minimal and unimportant to create a veritable "Palestinian people".

THOSE ARE THE FACTS, corruption.

Yet you, not surprisingly, seek to corrupt history. To ignore history, to ignore "what" the Palestinian people actually are, organically speaking. They were just Arabs before 1948. Post 1948, thanks to the myth making of Palestinian politicians, the idea of a 'Palestinian' people was born, so today, we actually do have the problem of a Palestinian people who feel slighted.

It's hard not to look at the context and not be completely dismayed by how unfairly the Jews were treated. If were going to stress fairness, we have to look at it evenly. You don't, in the least bit. You are a pathetically obvious propagandist who engages in demagoguery to impress his listeners, or readers. And now apparently you have succumbed to making fun of my needing anti-depressants when I was younger, after a close relative died, and became depressed and insecure. That's not something to make light of - or even mention, when it is completely irrelevant. And to say my arguments are so 'irrational' - when they clearly aren't - only highlights and makes more clear what kind of person you are, or can be.

Finally, the Palestinians, as long as they remain homeless, have very many supporters in the world who want to help them. The real solution is: send them to Jordan. But unfortunately, A Hashemite king still rules there, and as long the Hashemites rule - and not Palestinians (who make up the majority of the population) relocation there will be problematic. So, whats left is, a two state solution, one in the west bank/gaza, and another in Israel, or, a one state solution, which is being advocated by more members within Israel's intelligentsia. The latter option means, integrating Palestinian Arabs in the west bank and Gaza into Israeli society. Obviously, there would be grassroots resistance to this, so, it would not be done without incurring scathing international condemnation.

I'm caught between the fences. I want peace, but I don't think the Palestinians are remotely interested in peace. So, perhaps a safer, and indeed, more humane solution would be the one state solution, in which all Arabs living under Israeli law would be granted complete democratic rights - individually.

reply to post by dontreally


Well presented and quite historically accurate post Dontreally.

Obviously you are well versed in the complex history of the greater Palestinian territories through the 20th century, a counter balance this topic sorely needs when discussing the issue on ATS.

In light of the flagrantly dishonest efforts by some members to spin an revisionist narrative under the weasel term of anti-Zionism I am sure I'm not alone in saying this topic is in need of honest, sourced clarification of the historical record to better understand the circumstance which has set the current stage.

Originally posted by Corruption Exposed
reply to post by dontreally

 

Your cartoon maps equate to the same as Bibi's propaganda crayon art at the UN:

Exposed Corruption, for grins and giggles I sourced Dontreally's documents against the usual graphics you have posted in rebuttal (ad naseum, may I ad. ..)

In order above, Dontreally has provided....

Palestine under British Mandate 1923-48


The UN Partition Plan For Palestine 1947


The Strategic position of all belligerents during 1948


and lastly, the final result of the 1949 Armistice Agreements


Can you find fault with any of the information provided by his sources? If yes please provide a legitimate, verifiable source as a counterpoint, after all he extended you the same courtesy

You flippantly dismiss these legitimate, sourced cartographic representations as"cartoon maps", then post in rebuttal...

Benjamin Netanyahu's cartoon bomb graphic from the U.N. (not a map)


A German map from the mid 1700's that mentions the word Palestinian, but in typical fashion you obviously never bothered to translate as the text reads....

The holy land, or Palestina, exhibiting not only the old kingdoms of Judah and Israel in their 12 Three distinct, but also the condition of the different ages of the same, and there was made ​​known to you in the pages of Holy Writ. Helige das Land und Schön published auch sehr sehr Gross.

(directly contradicts your claim)


A mid 19th century map titled "Ancient Palestine" highlighting ancient Hebrew and Christian connection to the land ( you didn't look very close at that one either did you?)


Next, you posted what the text describes as "A beautiful example of A. J. Johnson’s 1862 map of Palestine / Israel / Holy Land"


Another 1866 English language map of labeled Palestine and "the holy land". Again, this is doing nothing but undermine your point and reinforcing the fact that their was a strong indigenous Hebrew population.


I am not going to dignify the ridiculous "Palestinian loss of land" graphic. You have been told, shown and had the matter unarguably settled that particular graphic is a fabrication. For anybody reading along, try a quick reverse image search and see where the source leads...


And of course, the obligatory Palestinian Territory British passport...


Exposed Corruption, you might have a couple of the young and excitable antigoverment kids wound up but other than that you aren't fooling anybody.

It would be funny except some of the kids that read this believe your hateful tripe, fortunately there are more than a few on hand to keep the conversation honest.

reply to post by at1withharmony11


I was having a good day until you did that...

Now I want to adopt her too!

There seriously is something evil about Israel. I know from research, but also personal experience in dealing with certain Israelis.

It was like looking into the eyes of a demon.

What I leaned from this thread.

The rap sucks and Israel put out the smackdown on the Arabs,good for them.

reply to post by Drunkenparrot

Can you find fault with any of the information provided by his sources? If yes please provide a legitimate, verifiable source as a counterpoint, after all he extended you the same courtesy

First off, its a she, not a he

Second, are you really asking me to counterpoint her cartoons with sources while she did not provide a source her self? That is poor form my friend, you seem like a clever person but sometimes you don't think before you post. It's okay I forgive you.

You also missed the whole point of my post. She responded with off topic information that has already been discussed in various threads so I though I would respond with more off topic information to counter her propaganda.

You are very clever for noticing the Bibi picture wasn't a map...here is a prize

The whole point of me posting that picture is that anyone can post a cartoon and try to swindle the fools, because people like you and her are only fooling the fools, no one else is buying it.

My maps actually physically exist and prove my point even though you refuse to accept it. Blind ignorance is not a good way to approach a discussion so perhaps next time you will open your eyes.

Exposed Corruption, you might have a couple of the young and excitable antigoverment kids wound up but other than that you aren't fooling anybody.

It would be funny except some of the kids that read this believe your hateful tripe, fortunately there are more than a few on hand to keep the conversation honest.

Hello Megaphone, that is my new nick name for you BTW.

It is pure ignorance for you to label any one that supports Palestinian rights and who are against Israeli apartheid as "young and excitable antigoverment kids" as I can guarantee you that there are some real people who are politically active in their communities who send me messages thanking me for what I post and the information that I share.

My father is on here as a member, is he a "young and excitable antigoverment kid", trust me he isn't as he shares the same views as I do on this issue and he has worked for various government agencies directly and inderectly including but not limited to NORAD so you can keep your stereotypes and shove them where the sun don't shine...I mean that in the nicest way possible.

I'm not fooling anyone as the information I post is the truth and people like you and many others are constantly trying to confuse the people who are on the fence on this issue with propaganda and misinformation while ignoring the actualy topic of the thread...it's okay I'm used to it and I forgive you once again.

And please point out ONE thing that I posted that could be considered as "hateful tripe", good luck searching because you won't find any.

I don't expect to hear from you again, but if you do gather the courage to return from your embarrassment please contribute something meaningful and on topic instead of personal insults and off topic deflections.

Good day, and good luck as you certainly could use some in your search for reality.

reply to post by Corruption Exposed

First off, its a she, not a he

umm, yeah. Are you that incapable of debating maturely?

Second, are you really asking me to counterpoint her cartoons with sources while she did not provide a source her self?

Each map has a legend. Are you trying to argue that I would go out of my way to make maps?

The whole point of me posting that picture is that anyone can post a cartoon and try to swindle the fools, because people like you and her are only fooling the fools, no one else is buying it.

You actually make me sick to my stomach. You are the most obnoxious poster at Abovetopsecret, bar none.

as I do on this issue and he has worked for various government agencies directly and inderectly including but not limited to NORAD so you can keep your stereotypes and shove them where the sun don't shine...I mean that in the nicest way possible.

Wow, that's interesting! So you even admit your familial connections to government agencies.

That was an incredibly stupid thing to admit! Now it's even more plausible that one of your interests here is spreading propaganda about Israel.

Wasn't NORAD the agency that 'stood down' on 9/11?

I'm not fooling anyone as the information I post is the truth and people like you and many others are constantly trying to confuse the people

If there's a dimension of existence which metes out a mans just desserts, you have a VERY interesting afterlife coming your way. How often do you lie? It's not even an issue for you. You are past and have gone beyond concerns for any objective truth. Hence, your extremely lowbrow attacks against me and drunknenparrot.

Aside from my interests in politics and philosophy, I'm also a graduate of psychology - I have a degree in it You give yourself away far too obviously. A psychological profile of you would read like: he has various interests, as his various threads show; but he also has a monomaniacal obsession with defaming Israel. When his lies and exaggerations are exposed, and his overall mendacity made clear, he engages in textbook compensatory behavior in those who are guilty: mockery and taunting.

You would have served yourself far better by trying to respond maturely, instead of the childish attacks.

Since you have such a good memory of what I write (that I once went on anti-depressants to treat a depression) I will forever 'megaphone' this ridiculously stupid admission: "My father is on here as a member, is he a "young and excitable antigoverment kid", trust me he isn't as he shares the same views as I do on this issue and he has worked for various government agencies directly and inderectly including but not limited to NORAD so you can keep your stereotypes and shove them where the sun don't shine...I mean that in the nicest way possible. "

HAHAHA, I'm sorry, but how did you think mentioning that would help your cause?

reply to post by dontreally

umm, yeah. Are you that incapable of debating maturely?

No I am not, are you?

Each map has a legend.

Legend as in Elvis or as in the movie?

Are you trying to argue that I would go out of my way to make maps?

I wouldn't put it past you judging by the deceitful propaganda you spew on a daily basis.

You actually make me sick to my stomach.

Speak to your doctor about that, could be some side effects.

You are the most obnoxious poster at Abovetopsecret, bar none.

The feeling is mutual, at least we finally agree on something

Wow, that's interesting! So you even admit your familial connections to government agencies.

That was an incredibly stupid thing to admit! Now it's even more plausible that one of your interests here is spreading propaganda about Israel.

Wasn't NORAD the agency that 'stood down' on 9/11?

My familial connections to government agencies does not define who I am as a person.

I spread the truth while you spread propaganda, the sad thing is that you actually believe the hateful filth you echo to anyone who is willing to listen.

My father was retired when 911 happened, and they stood down on Dick Cheney's orders or are you too doped up to remember that part?

The rest of your post really frightens me and I honestly hope you seek the help you desperately need.

I'm looking forward to our next discussion

Seriously!

reply to post by Corruption Exposed

Speak to your doctor about that, could be some side effects.

You just can't resist it...

You keep eliciting proofs of what kind of person you are.

The feeling is mutual, at least we finally agree on something

Of course, that's how a propagandist like yourself will have to respond. He calls me obnoxious, I'll call him obnoxious.

Any honest, intelligent person can see right through you. Conversely, you insult and debase everyone else by assuming they are too 'stupid' to see through your duplicity.

My familial connections to government agencies does not define who I am as a person.

You just shouldn't have mentioned it, corruption, as it adds context to what has been assumed by many other posters, not just myself.

Everything about you reads 'propagandist'. Now you've given substance to that suspicion by admitting your connection to government agencies.

In any case, thank you. Because up till now, I only suspected that government agencies had an agenda - for some obscure reason, for some people, but clear a day to me - against Israel. Now I know these people actually do.

What a villainous world we live in!

My father was retired when 911 happened, and they stood down on Dick Cheney's orders or are you too doped up to remember that part?

Obviously, again, you ignore the larger point. It's the CULTURE of government agencies. There is something highly amoral about them all, particularly an organization like NORAD, or the CIA.

You know, I read political literature too.. I know that Machivallian doctrine of 'necessity' which distinguishes all political activity.

Also

The rest of your post really frightens me and I honestly hope you seek the help you desperately need.

See how I stop at criticizing your character as a person, while you go much further by attacking my sanity?? Again, you reveal yourself every time you speak.

I'm looking forward to our next discussion

Oh, I do too! You only have ignoramuses around your finger, while actual intelligent posters can see quite clearly who is being more reasonable, you or I.

Your greatest weakness as an effective operative is vanity. You give yourself away with that stupid avatar; with low brow mockery and taunting; and by taking crude advantage of something another poster wrote in the psychology forum about his past.

That is all revelatory about the type of person you are.

reply to post by Corruption Exposed

“I spread the truth while you spread propaganda”

What?? How come we only learn about it now?

“the sad thing is that you actually believe the hateful filth you echo to anyone who is willing to listen.”

When was the last time you wrote something not infected with hatred when it comes to Israel ?

"My familial connections to government agencies does not define who I am as a person.”

Than why bring this issue in the first place? Dontrealy was right on the money. Vanity got the best of you. Your corruption was indeed Exposed.

"The rest of your post really frightens me and I honestly hope you seek the help you desperately need.”

And this is coming from a guy who can't even admit to simple undeniable historical facts, who will post pictures and maps without even knowing their meaning, just because he found them in some “WEHATEJEWS” kind of website, who thinks that the best course of action is to fill ignoramus minds with lies and revisionism.

Thank God there are more Emile Zola out there, than people like you.

reply to post by gravitational


Sorry I don't take arm chair soldiers seriously. JIDF is not the military dude, you are not a serviceman and you belong in therapy with your delusions. Until you verify your claims of military service they will be ridiculed as nothing but more of your fabrications and I know many agree with me.

Cough it up butter cup.

reply to post by Corruption Exposed


Yes, get back on subject.

Were you reprimanded by your superiors?

You have to be careful not to reveal too much about yourself. You already have the ironical name, the ironical avatar.. Don't add more reasons for people to suspect you of engaging in an evil game of spreading lies about Israel.

Originally posted by Corruption Exposed
reply to post by gravitational

 

Sorry I don't take arm chair soldiers seriously. JIDF is not the military dude, you are not a serviceman and you belong in therapy with your delusions. Until you verify your claims of military service they will be ridiculed as nothing but more of your fabrications and I know many agree with me.

Cough it up butter cup.

That was a miserable pathetic attempt to lure me into a T&C violation.
Try harder.

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by Corruption Exposed

 

Yes, get back on subject.

Were you reprimanded by your superiors?

You have to be careful not to reveal too much about yourself. You already have the ironical name, the ironical avatar.. Don't add more reasons for people to suspect you of engaging in an evil game of spreading lies about Israel.

edit on 19-10-2012 by dontreally because: (no reason given)

Why not make a thread about it? (whoops)

The personal attacks on here are amazing. As for the poster stating that because CE (who works down the hall from me in the CSIS propaganda offices) does not like Israel or agree with them in ANY way does not mean that he is against Jewish people. Barring a memo from upstairs telling us any different, I for one do not like or agree with the Israeli government, but, I have no problem with Jewish people. That is my opinion.