Never again. What happened to NEVER AGAIN?

This is a RANT. I don't pretend it's anything but a rant and specifically, it's a rant directed at those at least 23 and above.

Those younger, no offense meant, but you were all of maybe 10 or 11 years old when the Towers came down and the world as we all knew it changed forever. Your memory of the United States of America when the Eagle was properly turned the OTHER direction is dim for first person, if at all, so it's not about the younger generations.

(I can't imagine what it's been like to be an American and literally...No B.S...LITERALLY...Know nothing but a nation at war for one's entire clear memory in life...in some ways, it's worse than having had peace and lost it, perhaps)

For the rest, I have one thing to say.

What the hell??? Shame On You!!

Vietnam was an ugly, UGLY, nasty snake pit and cess pool of a war in every sense and every way. I wasn't even born yet but I've read all a person can reasonably do in the effort to understand it and understand a parent I didn't know a whole side of until finding some things after he passed. I know more than I wished to about HOW bad that war got and insight into this one as well.

When troops came home...they got spit on, called baby killers and the rest. Things any American knows culturally, if not having lived the times. They were treated with all the vile and PROPER hate the WAR deserved. They got the crap...literally in some obscene cases....which should have gone to Lyndon Johnson and Tricky Dick Nixon who would have had it across Cambodia and Laos with my father having gone back his 3rd and likely last ever tour. He'd been in the San Diego 'vicinity' training to go back when Nixon went the other way.

The decision defined knowing him at all, in a way. Funny, as things go in life, such a critical aspect of mine was decided by political gamesmanship and moves in the White House. but I digress.....


The 70's were spent, as a nation, trying to understand the fight for South Vietnam and Greater Asia. Movies like Apocalypse Now being a decent example I'd suppose.

The 80's come into my own personal memory and are the time where I'd say America was moving beyond the open wounds of a 10 year nightmare Overseas. People JUST STARTING to realize the troops weren't the ones to blame and in many ways, victims who'd suffer a lifetime for 12 months of friggen hell. Many would never fully adjust and some...just became lost. 12 months...and it destroyed a generation of men to various degrees.

By the 90's the general feeling I'd say I got was that as a society we really were crappy to the guys and I saw Parades and other MUCH delayed celebrations in honor of the Vets from time to time around the country. A way of doing a little something to make up for what was done to the kids coming back so changed from a war they sure weren't asked their opinion of.

Never Again ...That WAS something I heard in the 90's. Several times. I heard it again in 2001 and into 2002 at least. A collective reminder that whatever happened and however things went, the troops were not the targets for blame. This is among things I recall both reading in editorials in the paper and seeing on TV reports back then. Prescient as it turns out, but who could have known how clearly.



Troops...are NOT to blame from this war. Any of the campaigns across that overall region that comprise it....or any that have been lost on U.S. Soil in this fight (and damn anyone who doesn't like my saying the last part here, they deserve at least that much)

......Anymore than they were in 2001...when it's almost an understatement to say a majority were strongly saying troops and mission, support for one need not be support for both and disagreement with the war was NOT hate for the MEN.



Have troops done bad crap? Hell yes. Have there been atrocities? On both sides. No question. There are convictions to show for it in those where proof could be had and cells in Leavenworth have new occupants in some cases for a very long time. By the way...where are those Taliban and Al Qaeda stockades or jails for their guys? Just a question that's always tickled me that no one asks... One side sees wrong what the other sees as fair tactics might be a guess.

....And many of those who broke and crossed into that place where evil lives are as much victims as the rest....though victims who rightly sit removed, in some cases, forever.


Ultimately and the purpose of this somewhat rambling rant is to remind at least those who were around and old enough to have heard, seen and felt the sentiment back when it still seemed to mean something.

The WAR...Deserves our hate. The MEN who are RUNNING IT deserve our hate. Maybe that needs to even include SOME military up in those rarefied and mysterious places Generals and others of Flag Rank exist.

The KIDS and the Young Men are NOT THE TARGET. They are the VICTIMS coming back hard, at BEST....shellshocked for MOST....and broken in various ways for TOO DAMN MANY.

Nothing is gained by heaping it deeper on guys who probably agree after getting back, the war ain't the best idea since sliced bread these days, if it ever was. Hell, they CAN'T agree even THAT far publicly though because even that much will be taken and run with in 10 different ways to make a political mockery of the point by the end of it.

Remember how I started this and my opening words about Vietnam. 12 Months....destroyed a generation of men who rotated through that place across 10 years. Some went more. THIS war has plenty who have a few years of Combat deployments and some with a decade of it. Enough.....

..But..enough with not only sending more, but blaming those who come back. It's not right and some people ought to hang their head in utter shame for some things about troops that have been said this time around.

(Hops off Soap Box and disappears off to get some school work done for a change)

Just remember, those troops are your neighbors, friends, family and spouses. Some you know all about..some, you only think you do sometimes..but they're as much our fellow Americans coming back as they were when they left.

Never again. NEVER AGAIN....never should they be treated like crap again. Let's live what sounds so decent. eh?.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


I am not too sure but I think this is the first thing I have ever agreed with you on Wrabbit.

S&F for you!

Never again was forgotten when they remembered how much money could be made at war. Want these senseless wars to stop? Pass a law stating the families of the politicians have to serve on the front lines. You will notice very few children of politicians serve in the military and when they do they are no where near a combat area.

There was once a time that I was influenced by western games and movies.

I liked to go to war and prove my courage and abilities.

But those days are long gone.

I think the shame must be one the ones who manipulate people.

Originally posted by buster2010
Never again was forgotten when they remembered how much money could be made at war. Want these senseless wars to stop? Pass a law stating the families of the politicians have to serve on the front lines. You will notice very few children of politicians serve in the military and when they do they are no where near a combat area.

yes.

IMO, a bill that says those people should fight like ordinary people is a good start.

Shouldn't be necessary the front line.

You know rich and powerful people are much afraid of death.

No on has proved that he could bring his power and money with himself.

It has been proved that money and power could work opposite after death.

No soldiers = No war.

I don't really understand this invading and pre-emptive strikes..

Soldiers are meant to guard the country, not assume the foreign country may attack and wipe them out first with you know history,.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Never again?





This is currently going on in Athens, Greece.. You were saying?


It is not the deranged ideas and ideals that need to change, but people themselves need to evolve beyond the habit of making a "life-altering" decisions when voting on psychopath politicians without demanding a better choice or even giving their vote a deeper thought.

You should study this picture carefully. What you see is on its way to good ol´US and a hundred times worse. Brace yourself.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

What about "Never Again will We The People volunteer to fight for an illegal government conducting illegal and counter-productive wars".

Without us signing up, those leaders have no power.

Each person has to accept their level of the responsibility. Parents who DID see Vietnam who still encourage their kids to sign up. Kids who are "excited to have a blast in Iraq" as a previous post here said from someone who now feels their life is ruined by the war... a war they volunteered for while it was in action and while the internet was available to research what they would be fighting for. Citizens who fall for the propaganda and yell for blood.

I could stand in a street demanding my city attack the next city over, but without people agreeing to do so, I won't accomplish anything. If people do volunteer, is it all on me and they aren't part of the problem?

If a person signs up for the military now, they do so with no excuse to not know exactly WHO they are actually going to be fighting for.

Never again? I agree... it should be never again will we volunteer our sons and daughters and mothers and fathers to fight in illegal wars for profit while the families at home get poorer.

Are we really going to fall back on the "They are just following orders" perspective in the age of the internet?

We can't keep giving soldiers a free pass. If I'm going to volunteer to be trained to fire a weapon at another person, I'm going to DAMN WELL UNDERSTAND WHY AND FOR WHO before I do so.

There are more options than just the military to help protect your family, home, and nation.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


You made a lot of great points some I agree with and some not so much, but this was still well written so you get a star and flag from me for your contribution.

What happened to NEVER AGAIN?

To answer your question, there will always be an "again" we are doomed...there is no changing it unless we evolve as a species which I can't see happening anytime soon as we seem to be regressing instead of evolving.

I know you have good intentions, and mean well, but to believe the "never again" mentality is to forget that as old as humanity is, we have never learned from our mistakes, so what makes you think we will now?

I try and tread lightly when it comes to this subject, but the soldiers don't deserve as much respect as some people believe. I say this coming from a large military family...including some who have been wounded in situations that were never supposed to happen again.

I say # never again, there will always be an again and what are we going to do about it?

I was all set to get up, come by, and find myself flamed to the point of looking a little crispy, if not downright well done. I think I'm most surprised by who it turns out came and agreed with what I had to rant up there. That was definitely not expected but it's a pleasant surprise to login and find. I hadn't expected it to strike a chord of agreement. I'm glad it did.

For some folks, I wouldn't want to face them as a Soldier who'd done so much as slap a civilian in a fit of frustration.......it might be terminal! lol...but I might have gotten the impression that the critical eye and borderline hate extended to ALL troops in uniform and not just those who forgot how to be decent human beings in the middle of the madness.


@Buster2010

Now I couldn't possibly agree more with anything I've seen you say. If war is to be fought on ANY matter at ANY time then damn skippy! The children of the ruling class can damn sure step up, raise the arm and take the oath. Let the Politicians have something intensely PERSONAL to risk and lose in war and lets see how anxious they are to send OUR children off to fight and die. If they must send them anyway....Let's see if it's to WIN..or if it's to 'play' endless war for years or more. I'm betting the face of war and attitudes WOULD change fast.

@LucidDream

(Hands you a bucket of premium, fresh carrots) Outstanding point and I couldn't agree more. This is also a point I find it almost impossible to explain to younger people who didn't live it or don't recall America as a nation at relative peace. Preemptive war??? First Strike?? What the HELL is all this about?! It was called being the warmongering aggressor BEFORE the "Bush Doctrine" and insane thinking 9/11 opened the door to. I recall distinctly, the BITTER and passionate debating over this whole CONCEPT of First strike under ANY circumstances. It's been totally foreign to the American way of thinking until Bush made it policy

If ONE thing could be changed to make a difference to not only Americans at home but the WORLD...it would be to END the whole concept of preemptive war. It WAS NOT doctrine before the towers fell. It should never have BECOME doctrine and the whole world is just sitting here anxious as hell because I don't think they KNOW who we might choose to attack or destroy next. It's totally out of hand....but those hands are of the Civilian Leadership.

@Johncarter

(cough) ... That's quite a picture. Obviously, the arm bands are shopped in and I assume the lightning bolts of the SS are shopped into the Uniforms. Honestly, so I can figure what I'm looking at, what else isn't original? The MEANING of the photo is damn sure accurate enough though. One of the folks I came to know at Occupy St Louis was a former missionary with extensive time in Central North Africa. She was a wealth of perspective information on Kony and the nations/people of the region. However.. her Husband was native Greek and had been in the unrest there in 2010 and 2011.

He described how brutally efficient the Greek police were. No talk. No warnings. No "disperse or I'll say disperse again!". According to him and what I saw myself on TV coverage, the cops there just storm right in swinging..HURTING people BADLY..and half way enjoying themselves in the process. Truly taking more energy with it than needed, by a long shot... I agree to say we've had it easy in direct experience so far. Folks elsewhere in the world are much further down the road of this fight, as we can see by looking.

@ErgoTheConclusion

You make a fair point and I'd answer with another I think is equally fair.

To blame the men themselves for signing up is fair..to a VERY LIMITED point. These men and some women now trust at 18 or 19 years old, that their national leadership is NOT throwing them away for political points and personal agendas. They SHOULD be safe in that assumption. The fact it's a fools dream to assume is what I hold leaders responsible for.

Ignorance is what it comes down to, IMO. Ignorance is what a 19yr old Marine is full of when leaving on his first deployment to a strange new, exciting land. Reality and the crappy truth of it is what I think they're full of when RETURNING from the first "exciting" deployment to another place to go do crappy things. Ignorance isn't something I hold against anyone until or unless it becomes willful and practiced!

@Corruption Exposed

I appreciate you stopping by. I KNOW you're treading lightly by what you're saying and not saying, based on how I know your general feelings to be on this. Thank you for doing that. You don't have to...and that makes it something to thank.

I also see your point on respect. Outside of criminal action in Uniform, I disagree...but that's the power of our nation. We CAN disagree and never NEED to have hard words in the process.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Well in vietnam those men were drafted my father included. Today it is all volunteer to be in the military.

people either sign up deceived about what our government is doing or they signup with just the intent of killing.

I have friends from highschool who got into the military just to kill people. I mean when they come home they can't wait to go back and shoot at people. it sounds messed up but that is the way they are. I am not saying they are the norm but they exist.

Our government lies about why we invade countries. If they say it is to spread democracy... well youcannot spread democracy with a gun.. we are no different than islamist spreading islam with the violenc.


If our government would say, "Hey we need more wealth so we can keep our standard of living. The wealth we get from this conquest goes to you the people" I might be more inclined to support our government and would have probably encouraged me to join the military since i would increase my wealth.

As it stand the only ones who see the increase in wealth are the corporations that take control of those resources then sell them back to us in order for the rich to get richer. All we get is the illusion of being a country that is spreading democracy. And our children join the military brain washed into believing they are defending our freedoms and liberating other nations and making the world a better place to live in. when in reality we keep losing freedoms, we get more enslaved, and we oppress others.

As a super power it is expected to do such things but the plunder of war is only given to a few and we are left with "USA USA WE SPREAD DEMOCRACY! FEEL GOOD WE VANQUISHED THE EVIL DOERS! SLEEP IN TRANQUILITY THE FLAVOR OF THE YEAR DICTATOR IS NO MORE!".. and little by little our quality of life goes down the drain. just like everyone elses in this world.




Also look at how vets are treated by the government. They are used then spit out, with some having littler or no help. Where is all the wealth that they helped take?? why hasn't that wealth been used to help them??

because instead of the wealth the got they pat on the back saying that they spread democracy and protected our freedoms from the evil doers... when in reality the evil doers are the ones who put in the patriot act, are the ones who go after little girls selling lemonade at their street corner... are the ones who call you a terrorist if you do not agree with our government.


I understand why people join the military... but it angers me that they support the lies of our government. I didn't join because they do not tell you the truth. I do not do anything when i know something is a lie. There are still days i regret not serving although i still have time.

Thanks Dude.

As one of those deceived and deranged baby killers, I appreciate some well thought out comments.

SnF

Originally posted by ErgoTheConclusion
What about "Never Again will We The People volunteer to fight for an illegal government conducting illegal and counter-productive wars".
Without us signing up, those leaders have no power.

Just felt that needed to be repeated.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

Ignorance is what it comes down to, IMO. Ignorance is what a 19yr old Marine is full of when leaving on his first deployment to a strange new, exciting land. Reality and the crappy truth of it is what I think they're full of when RETURNING from the first "exciting" deployment to another place to go do crappy things. Ignorance isn't something I hold against anyone until or unless it becomes willful and practiced!

As a former Marine that was once headed on my first deployment to Iraq I can tell you that you are absolutely correct. I was an ignorant fool back then. I believed the original 9/11 stories and thought I would be going to fight those terrorists. I ended up in Fallujah Iraq and that is where the truth hit me like a brick wall. I did the best I could for the people I came into contact with. Anyone who has been through these wars who can't see past the crap is very weak minded in my opinion. My health problms kept me from being able to deploy again so I spent the rest of my time teaching marksmanship and teaching the new boys how to try and stay alive.

It is a shame what has happened. So many lives hav been ruined by these wars. That was also the question that got me. How are these wars benefiting my fellow citizens? The fact is they are not. They are only taking from the people. It is a heavy burden to have to carry knowing that you were duped into something so wrong. Not only do we veterans face the scrutiny of others hatred and disgust, but we also face the guilt and the anger for what we have done and why we did it. I have finally begun to repair my life although I have a ways to go still. Many more are still being directly affected by these conflicts and we stand by and let it happen.

The political system is so messed up and the general public is so duped as I once was that bringing about real change is at this point 'the impossible task'.As a Marine I still say nothing is impossible. We live in a world where the true hatred should be not only forced upon our leaders but we must accept that we have to bear responsibility as well. We as a civilization of people have let the reign of control grow out of our control. We have let them seed their control through their veil of lies. Many of us were suseptible to it before we were somehow awoken, and eventually found ourselves here discussing these matters amongst one another.

Knowledge is the key to turning the status quo around. Bringing knowledge to those willing to listen. Littl by little more people become aware that things are not as they appear. It is our duty and our burden to tell people the truth when we are asked about these things. It is a hard task but it is happening and one day we may see our freedom again. Anyways I'm with ya Wrabbit, keep on chiggin along.

never again!, was only said by those who dont make the bombs, when is the next one? is what everyone who makes bombs was saying, they also have more money .^^

Only allow those with less than 100K be in the government. Anyone who had, will have or already has a more amount of money should not step near the government.

Problem solved. Most wars will stop or at least, newer wars won’t start. Keep lowering the price range the more the government is ruined from the inside.

I love the US, I love the people in the US and I love your troops. I hate how blind your troops are and I hate how powerful and corrupted your government is.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


The average citizen in this country has never seen or even heard of the US peace flag but yet there's one. The reason people are ignorant about this flag is because there was never a reason to fly it another way of saying this country has always been at WAR.

reply to post by goh13


I think you have the right idea but the wrong application. If I might suggest a slight twist to that... Remove the ability or legal ability to spend private funds by candidates on anything remotely connected to re-election. Everything is flat rate dispersed by the Government for Federal level elections. States do whatever each has always done but federal should be 100% publicly funded.

It'll cost a few bucks in the budget but be a drop to the money pouring out to satisfy implied obligation both sides and everyone but the Supreme Court has to those who bankroll their elections. Well...end the bankrolling and Congressman or Senators don't have as much reason to give a damn what a filthy rich company thinks or doesn't think. Imagine that..if the company had absolutely no means to directly influence a Congressman. None at all. It absolutely would change politics but it would take a fair % of the fringe benefits none of them talk about clear out of their lives. So..fat chance we'd ever see it happen.


** And in sticking to the thread, this would mean EVERYTHING in the Defense/Industrial complex pushing our nation into money making wars every 20 years or so and BIG ones every few decades. They're ALL about money and Congress isn't swayed by hero worship or the charm of these scumbags....they're swayed 100% by campaign money given and all the little gimmie benefits which may even lead to a job after Congress. Remove it all and corruption isn't GONE...but it's reduced to a manageable level..and wars may not be a "budget fix" like they seem to be now.

The troops are not to blame for their orders, but the large numbers of people enlisting for these 2 stupid wars.... Iraq, that didn't invade anyone (after the first Gulf War) and didn't have WMDs, and Afghanistan, where we could fight a guerilla war for the rest of eternity while they can't form their own army, and have been there for 12 years, seems to make the wars easier to happen. Not only that, but we seem to have the budget to hire uncounted private mercenaries over there as well. We have brainwashed our kids with videos making it fun to kill, so they want to go have some FUN over there! And calling ANYONE who is in the Armed Forces a HERO just makes it more attractive. This means some guy who is a cook in a camp is a hero, and the guy that gets his wounded buddy back while under fire in the same category. More brainwashing. Being a Hero is much more than just being Over There. Never Again? Sad to say, we now have a whole new generation of Vets with their accompanying problems. PTSD, lack of employment, lack of care that was promised to them, lack of so much more. I WISH it were Never Again!

Well first off, it was a 13 month tour. I was RA, which meant Regular Army, and I joined in April of 1970. After Basic and AIT, (advanced infantry training) I was sent directly to the Republic of Vietnam. Remember, I was a volunteer. I didn't go hoping to shoot machine guns and kill people. However the nature of the game dictates that that is a probable scenario for most. I was naive when I joined, but that quickly faded. I ended up a door gunner on a 'Slick' Huey.
Before I exited high school, I remember thinking as the OP put it regarding 10 & 11 year olds who had only lived in 'Times of War', that indeed the US had almost always been at war, and that for every generation there was a war to fight and possibly die in.
From the time I went into country, ( and yea, I was in both Cambodia and Laos), I was slowly revved up with the war in which I was part of. Each day you faced new dangers, you became more tightly wound, until you were ......wound tight..... you were finely tuned, pretty much ready in a split second for anything. Along with that, I had become 'jaded'. Mess with Me, and I'd kill you, nothing meant anything except my space. Not expressly Me, but most Combat Soldiers in general. Anyone not of your group risked your wrath if you were provoked. There were too many ways for an 'accident' to happen.
This is what I was saying about being wound tight, the mindset you evolved into. Right or wrong, it just 'was'. Now imagine your tour coming to a close and you being discharged........ back into the slow moving brain dead or sometimes 'hostile towards Vets' public arena. From white knuckle life, where every minute could beyond intense, to a complete sedate setting. You were moving at light speed, and now you were dropped into a stalled (from your perspective) society. You craved excitement, adrenalin, and in most cases were still in high gear.
A lot of returning GI's tried to replace the 'RUSH' by trying to become police officers. Some even continued as Mercenaries in other countries. It was the times, it was just what it was, a time of war. Most of us were able to assimilate back into peaceful society. Others were permanently scarred.
Thats why the Government has recently thought of Vets as a possible problem to their covert plans of totalitarian rule. Vets are not afraid. you can't bully them, and they also know all the tricks still so their not pushovers like civilians who have not been in Combat.

NEVER AGAIN........... thats a Jewish thing, a Holocaust thing, not a VET thing really.
I might have strayed here, but I wanted to clarify a couple inaccuracies.