Why mocking intelligent design believers scientifically is not fair

Originally posted by ImaFungi

Originally posted by Prezbo369
reply to post by ImaFungi

 

The point is there are a great many things in existence that couldn't ever be described as something that was 'intelligently' designed.

Such as the universe being 99.9999999999999999% instantly lethal to life.

so the definition of an intelligent design is how perfect the entire universe is to 000000000.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001%

of the matter in it ( humans) .......

let me guess the sun revolves around you

I don't think that is the point that the poster was trying to make.

We are intelligent, and we know we are intelligent because of the fact we can recognize a flaw in the design of a structure. Being intelligent is not just about being able to recognize the sound design of a system, but to recognize it's flaws and weak areas. In that way, any system that we design can be improved over time.

That is intelligence.

If I design a bridge, test it with a prototype and the structure fails--I can easily go back through the blueprints and re-design the weak spots.

Now, let us apply this to the human system. The larynx and the trachea are connected. When we eat food we have to watch how we breathe, otherwise we'll choke and die. This is an example of a poor design. Especially considering that food is a common input of the human system. If we are the result of intelligent design, then God should have gone over his blueprint and fixed the flaw. That is what an intelligent designer does.

As a programmer, if I were to design code that failed under such common conditions, I would rightly recognize that I have designed poor code. The fact that our larynx and trachea are connected is proof that either:

1. We are not the result of intelligent design and our evolution was random

or

2. God is a poor designer.

Not to mention the "design" of the appendix, which would be akin to designing a bridge that contains a bomb that may go off at some point. Poorly designed if such is the case.

Originally posted by LewsTherinThelamon


Now, let us apply this to the human system. The larynx and the trachea are connected. When we eat food we have to watch how we breathe, otherwise we'll choke and die. This is an example of a poor design.

I only see an aid in evolution in that example, perhaps not every creature in the universe evolved to have build a larynx and trachea. While living day to day life I rarely worry about these things, I feel quite fine and comfortable, which is surprising considering all the different pieces we are made of, and all the duties they are fulfilling at all times.

Especially considering that food is a common input of the human system. If we are the result of intelligent design, then God should have gone over his blueprint and fixed the flaw. That is what an intelligent designer does.

I will only ever argue the potential of a God, which created/designed the universe. The physics, the idea of it. So like, "hmm I wonder if I can create a massive system in which uncountable individual entities can experience themselves and a surroundings for a time, I wonder if there can be meaning and value and purpose, I wonder if it can be enjoyable and worthwhile, I wonder how many ways this is possible, I wonder how many different individuals can be made, I wonder how long the system can stabley exist, I wonder the magnitude of potential evolution in multiple facets they can undergo"....

But when I think about it, it is also a possibility that humans were designed or created by aliens. Even though I dont like that argument, because it just pushes it back,,, well who created the aliens, etc. It is certainly possible. If you agree that it is possible in this universe for an intelligence to arise naturally, then it is certainly possible for an intelligence to arise naturally a billion years ago on a planet, and it is certainly possible for an intelligence to travel to another planet and experiment with creating other intelligences or even life forms in general. Any one who doesnt like the sound of that, for some personal reason, will only be able to argue, "yea... but its not probable" .... And they would have brought that statistic of probability out of their stassh, because they really cannot calculate that probability, and I can just as easily say, "no, given the amount of time, and amount of planets in our galaxy alone, and amount of potential naturally arising intelligent life forms, it seems probable"

As a programmer, if I were to design code that failed under such common conditions, I would rightly recognize that I have designed poor code. The fact that our larynx and trachea are connected is proof that either:

Still on about that? I personally dont let one rotten apple spoil the bunch. Life in general is quite amazing, epic, and great. This sounds like give an inch, take a mile. I dont know the conditions God had to work with, I dont know what God is, so that being said, to create everything that is possible for me to be, do, see, feel, know, think, like, love, hate, is pretty good programming insight. To build a larynx and trachea were the choices of the groupings of cells and molecules that got away with building this design however many hundred millions of years ago, you could have been a worm, would that be better? And hey in a couple hundred years or less, maybe our species will finally get to the level and unlock the ability to write our own code, then we will become our own Gods (not to be confused with he God that potentially created the entire universe) but we will have another expression of creative abilities using 'intelligence'.

1. We are not the result of intelligent design and our evolution was random

or

2. God is a poor designer.

Not to mention the "design" of the appendix, which would be akin to designing a bridge that contains a bomb that may go off at some point. Poorly designed if such is the case.

There is no evidence of God (universe creator) tampering with evolution right? And what we know of as consciousness/awareness/intelligence is that it has some form of free will? To make decisions on motion, so is it not the fault of the individual organisms over the span of evolution and what they were able to build as creatures? Just like its not Gods fault rape, war, poverty exists on earth, its mans fault.

"I want to put on the table, not why 85% of the members of the National Academy of Sciences reject God, I want to know why 15% of the National Academy don’t."

— Neil deGrasse Tyson —

Very powerful.

Nice thread, thanks for sharing. I went in wondering what polarization this would have on the topic, it turns out everyone can benefit from reading this. Thanks again.

reply to post by ZeuZZ


What you mean to say is that when people are threatened with death they will say almost anything.

How is it the religious always forget how hostile the world was, just a hundred years ago, to atheism?

Originally posted by ImaFungi

I only see an aid in evolution in that example, perhaps not every creature in the universe evolved to have build a larynx and trachea. While living day to day life I rarely worry about these things, I feel quite fine and comfortable, which is surprising considering all the different pieces we are made of, and all the duties they are fulfilling at all times.

The 3,000+ people (children mostly) that choke to death each don't feel too fine and comfortable......

Originally posted by Prezbo369

Originally posted by ImaFungi

I only see an aid in evolution in that example, perhaps not every creature in the universe evolved to have build a larynx and trachea. While living day to day life I rarely worry about these things, I feel quite fine and comfortable, which is surprising considering all the different pieces we are made of, and all the duties they are fulfilling at all times.

The 3,000+ people (children mostly) that choke to death each don't feel too fine and comfortable......

Wow, thanks for making things so clear.

It is impossible for there to be a God ( Creator of this universe) because children choke to death...

It is comfortable to exist, if you are healthy, and have worked to accomplished your necessities for the time being, it feels good to be alive, if even for a minute or a second. There are no rules that say we deserve x amount of years alive, I dont remember doing much work in order to be born, life was given to me. Thinking about all the complexities involved in our bodies it is very interesting how comfortable it is to be alive. The millions of electrical impulses running through your body non stop every second, the millions of lives and deaths of cells each moment, all the organs and complex molecules and functions in your body, your blood flowing, the millions of air molecules you breathe in every second and filter through your lungs... all this order and cooperative mayhem, and yet I can sit completely peacefully relaxed, take a deep breath, and feel, good. If there is a God, creator of this universe, his work is pretty impressive if you ask me.

If you dont think the universe is impressive. Please begin creating your own, and let me know when you are finished.

Originally posted by ImaFungi

Wow, thanks for making things so clear.

It is impossible for there to be a God ( Creator of this universe) because children choke to death...

We really need strawman smilies on this board.....

The point was that the design is flawed, and not something you'd expect from an all knowing all powerful perfect designer. Not unless he was either incompetent and thus none of the things previously mentioned, or just particularly malevolent (a ****).

It is comfortable to exist, if you are healthy, and have worked to accomplished your necessities for the time being, it feels good to be alive, if even for a minute or a second. There are no rules that say we deserve x amount of years alive, I dont remember doing much work in order to be born, life was given to me. Thinking about all the complexities involved in our bodies it is very interesting how comfortable it is to be alive. The millions of electrical impulses running through your body non stop every second, the millions of lives and deaths of cells each moment, all the organs and complex molecules and functions in your body, your blood flowing, the millions of air molecules you breathe in every second and filter through your lungs... all this order and cooperative mayhem, and yet I can sit completely peacefully relaxed, take a deep breath, and feel, good. If there is a God, creator of this universe, his work is pretty impressive if you ask me.

Life outside of your comfortable, warm, safe bubble is a endless bloodbath filled with suffering. In fact the one thing that every living organism that has ever existed can be absolutely guaranteed, is suffering.

Only someone with a sheltered, short and naive experience of the world would attempt to make such an argument.

reply to post by Prezbo369


I guess you missed the part of my argument when I stated, God did not create the creatures of the earth, the creatures did. Also the majority of creatures im sure experience at least 1 second of their existence in a state of comfort, why does anything even deserve this, would it be better if none of the consciousnesses which arose with every entity were to experience existing as themselves for some time on this planet? If that is better, non existence, then round up all of them, and kill yourselves. If you and the living creatures think life is worthwhile in the least, you would probably continue to live.

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to [url= by Prezbo369[/url]

 

I guess you missed the part of my argument when I stated, God did not create the creatures of the earth, the creatures did.

........so if I understand you correctly, you assign the design of all the worlds creatures to evolution, with the exception of humans? (ofc)

Thus intelligence design(er) not required?

Also the majority of creatures im sure experience at least 1 second of their existence in a state of comfort, why does anything even deserve this, would it be better if none of the consciousnesses which arose with every entity were to experience existing as themselves for some time on this planet? If that is better, non existence, then round up all of them, and kill yourselves. If you and the living creatures think life is worthwhile in the least, you would probably continue to live.

One second of suffering is not 'worth' one second of 'sitting comfortably', one second with your hand on a burning hot stove is not worth a second with your hand rested on a pillow.

But if what you claim is true, and we are the product of an intelligent designer, he cares not a jot nor a tiddle about suffering, or the needless deaths of 3,000 people a year (mostly children) due to his design flaws. All loving indeed.....

It's not all peaches and cream as you seem to think it is, but life's prime directive if you will, is to survive regardless of the multitude of risks or dangers presented before it.

If anyone should be going around killing themselves surely its those that believe that this earthly realm and the meat-suits we control, are just a brief wiping of the feet before the main event begins.......it's the logical conclusion if you're completely honest.

reply to post by ImaFungi


Dude, you apparently do not grasp basic concepts of design.

Regardless as to what you believe, if human beings are the product of intelligent design--then our bodies--as systems, contain glaring design flaws; which leads back to my original conclusion:

1. God was an undergraduate engineering student.

or

2. God doesn't exist.

The trachea and larynx being connected, which can cause food input to crossover into the wrong channel is a piss poor design.

The appendix was poorly designed. Not only was it poorly designed, it is literally like placing a bomb in a structure that may or may not detonate.

The sex/eliminative organs were poorly designed. Those two functions should have been separate.

Study some form of engineering, and then come back and argue how you believe the above subsystems could possibly be sound design.

Originally posted by Prezbo369

........so if I understand you correctly, you assign the design of all the worlds creatures to evolution, with the exception of humans? (ofc)

Thus intelligence design(er) not required?

You do not understand me correctly. To me, the word God, means (potentially) a creator of the system we exist in and of; the universe. In this view, we as humans are born in this universe, with no apriori knowledge regarding anything about this universe. However after existing for sometime, perceiving, experiencing, thinking, using rationale, reason, probability, potential, I have come to the conclusion that it is a possibility 'something' resembling what we know of as 'intelligence' played a part in the manifestation, implementation and/or execution of this universe.

One second of suffering is not 'worth' one second of 'sitting comfortably', one second with your hand on a burning hot stove is not worth a second with your hand rested on a pillow.

But if what you claim is true, and we are the product of an intelligent designer, he cares not a jot nor a tiddle about suffering, or the needless deaths of 3,000 people a year (mostly children) due to his design flaws. All loving indeed.....

It's not all peaches and cream as you seem to think it is, but life's prime directive if you will, is to survive regardless of the multitude of risks or dangers presented before it.

If anyone should be going around killing themselves surely its those that believe that this earthly realm and the meat-suits we control, are just a brief wiping of the feet before the main event begins.......it's the logical conclusion if you're completely honest.

Hm, no. I strive to enjoy life and live. Anything man says, thinks, does, or feels, in no way credits or discredits the potential truth that a God created this universe. I do not know gods motives. I only offered the solution to suffering (if one is in such a state) is death, which fortunately is guaranteed, so noone will suffer eternally. So it seems we are given a chance to exist as ourselves for some time, and the rest is up to us and our environment. take it or leave it.

reply to post by LewsTherinThelamon


Can you direct me to the chapter in the atheist handbook you are plucking these talking points from?

jkjk

In a post above I state my position that; It is possible a God created this universe.

Now, you bring up an interesting point, you are not talking about that potential God which created the universe, you are talking about an intelligence in this universe, directly creating the human body. Which would be like if we traveled to the nearest planet, and used our knowledge and technology to experiment genetically on the monkey like creatures of that planet. This is a possibility. I believe I said it in my last response to you which you failed to reply to; bad design flaw? Prove to me you can do better. Preferably from the bottom up, like nature did it. (so ya know, what materials would you use, how large would your life form be, how long would it live, how would you create its consciousness,etc)

reply to post by ImaFungi


I noticed you ignored all his arguments and parroted some vague defense speech your memorized.

Are you afraid to admit the human body is poorly designed?

Originally posted by Wertdagf
reply to post by ImaFungi

 

I noticed you ignored all his arguments and parroted some vague defense speech your memorized.

Are you afraid to admit the human body is poorly designed?

How did you ever become a cheerleader? your body is poorly designed, especially your noticing apparatus, I addressed all his arguments.

I will admit the activity of biology is a messy and chaotic one, and that everything that exists is 'weird' and the human body is no exception in regards to its oddities. You are choosing to see it a certain way. I personally see that there are more impressive features of the human body then flaws. Its so easy to sit on the sidelines with your arms crossed pointing and saying "wrong, its all wrong, how bad, terrible, ughh, ewwrghgh,,ohhhghghghg", but how many living beings have you created from scratch? You are like a music critic who has never picked up an instrument or written a note, or a little girl who is throwing a hissy fit because the lamburghini she got for her sweet 16 is a shade off and only has 2 cup holders.

Is evolution deterministic? did the microorganisms and molecules who began their journey in the creation of the species they were to become have no choice, to eventually create a lion or a whale, or a larynx and esophagus?

reply to post by ImaFungi

I will admit the activity of biology is a messy and chaotic one..

I hope you don't mind me editing out the childish nonsense. Thank you for another politically correct response.

The majority of evolution is horrific. Countless millions of our ancestors dying from simple flaws so that someday little billy can get the common cold and survive.

You can call what you see in nature beauty, but it is all manifestation of pain and all of nature cries out in agony.

reply to post by Wertdagf


Ying yang. You seem to enjoy dwelling in the dark... I am aware of the darkness, but look on the bright side. Noones making you stay here, if you dont like it you can leave.

reply to post by ZeuZZ


Darwinism and Intelligent Design both have one flaw in common. Both assume that Nature is mechanistic. Intelligent Design suggests that mechanism needs outside intervention while Darwinism assumes mechanism is enough. Both agree that living organisms are biological machines, an assumption that flies in the face of actual lived human experience. In their extremes both Darwinism and Intelligent Design tend to view Nature hierarchically, with humans at the top lording it over other creatures. Western cultures make assumptions about reality that demand proof of other philosophies but are themselves unproven.

Other philosophies assume that Nature is vital and creative in and of herself. Call it "Avatar"-ism. God is as much feminine as masculine, as much liberal and socialist as conservative.

I have read books on Evolution and I have read the Bible/Torah. I can say that I have found scientific truth in the former and spiritual Peace in the latter. Maybe dualism is the problem here more than anything. Two things can be true at the same time depending on how they are viewed. A lot of people in our modern culture have difficulties understanding subtlety.

Long ago when I was a kid, before the public education system told me I was too stupid to be a scientist, I used to spend all of my time outside studying and documenting rocks and flowers and everything. When most kids were playing with toys and etc, I found myself wanting to be a scientist, as I felt I was studying God's work, getting closer to God through His creation, like I was discovering Him for myself. Fast forward a few years and my learning style didn't conform to the day's standard so I was "left behind" and called stupid and retarded even, by teachers and fellow peers. I then went into adulthood with little education as I gave up and spent the rest of my life believing I was stupid even to this day, and thus never became a scientist, but enough of that side story.

Fast forward a few decades I look at my passion back then and realize I was greatly impressed and fell in love with God through His works. Now I look at myself who I am now, the mistakes iv'e made, the grudges iv'e held, and how far away I am from being a "good person", and that what amazes me most about God now, is His nature. How He loves regardless of who I am, how He forgives, and how I desire to have that same ability to love others and have the same patience God has etc. Those are the things that impress me most about God now, His nature.

Where am I going with this? Well studying God's creation can help you get closer to Him, but studying His love is even better. I believe heaven will be an eternity of studying God's nature and mind, infinite and never ending, fascinating. I know I have gone off topic, but in regards to the OP I have always believed we will never truly know everything, we will truly never understand everything, so everythings left to "faith". So I suppose if what we cannot understand becomes faith, and we can never understand everything, then there will always be faith. Whether you believe that "faith" is in God, or in nothing at all, its still faith, the choice is yours.

My 2 cents, great thread!

reply to post by ImaFungi

Prove to me you can do better.

It's easy. Separate the trachea and larynx.

Tada.

reply to post by ZeuZZ


The intelligent designers are against evolution. That is the reason why it is fair to mock them in a scientific context.

They could as well start to argue that the earth is flat.

Surely we do not know the answer to the big question yet, and I personally do believe in some form of deity behind all this.

But we shouldn´t forget scientific fact in the process.