Is the Greek Titan Cronus the first reference to a black hole?

Studying and reading mythologies requires a very open mind. And what comes to interpreting them, well, I don't even know if that is possible or meant as such. Considering that they wouldn't just be awesome sagas and myths, that they stand on a reality base of some sort, I find the Greek mythology to be one of the classiest.

I'm no expert in the field, but as I understand it we start out with Chaos. Chaos is the state before 'creation', before 'division'. From Chaos comes out Light, Day, Darkness and Night (Aether, Hemera, Erebus and Nyx). These are considered as primordial deities. Light and Day breeds Earth (Gaia) and Earth creates her surroundings; Stars, Hills and Oceans (Uranus, Ourea and Pontus).

Now we are approaching the point. As a result of interaction between the Earth and the Stars, Cronus is born as the youngest of the first generation of the Titans. He marries his sister Rhea, who is seen as a mother figure as well. Her name is connected with the word 'rheo' which stands for 'flow' or 'discharge'.

Cronus ends up killing his Father (the Stars) by castrating him. As we know, stars and stardust forms other planets. By castrating (eating) his father he becomes the King of Gods. I think Cronus is well suited as a black hole. After killing his Father he discharges (breeds with Rhea) more Titans only to be devoured by him after their birth.

We also know that black holes remember everything they 'eat'. They can spit out every little particle ever gone through the black hole experience. This is what happens after Gaia gives a little help regarding the birth of Zeus. Cronus is fed a bogus rock instead of Zeus (who might be seen as electricity) and later on Zeus will overthrow Cronus by cutting his stomach open. At this moment Cronus spits out everyone of his children and is a defeated force.

I just love a good story and this is what Greek Mythology offers. But could there be a reference in there? Food for thoughts.

I'd say that you might be on to something!

Here's something else that you might enjoy!

There is a story, which even you have preserved, that once upon a time Paethon,
the son of Helios, having yoked the steeds in his father’s chariot, because he was
not able to drive them in the path of his father, burnt up all that was upon the
earth, and was himself destroyed by a thunderbolt. Now this has the form of a
myth, but really signifies a declination of the bodies moving in the heavens around
the earth, and a great conflagration of things upon the earth, which recurs after
long intervals; at such times those who live upon the mountains and in dry and
lofty places are more liable to destruction than those who dwell by rivers or on
the seashore. And from this calamity the Nile, who is our never-failing saviour,
delivers and preserves us.

Here's something else that might contribute towards your thirst for knowledge:

www.theregister.co.uk...
Stars spotted dancing superfast tango around black hole handbag

Which, I'm not gonna lie.... is probably the WORST source I could have picked lol!!!

Astroboffins have found a star whipping around our galaxy's central supermassive black hole so fast that it completes a circuit in just 11.5 years, which could help test Albert Einstein's theory of relativity.

Which kind of reminds me of the following:

Kolob~

The Book of Abraham was dictated in 1836 by Latter Day Saint movement founder Joseph Smith, Jr. after he purchased a set of Egyptian scrolls that accompanied a mummy exhibition. According to Smith, the scrolls described a vision of Abraham, in which Abraham:

"saw the stars, that they were very great, and that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God;....and the name of the great one is Kolob, because it is near unto me, for I am the Lord thy God: I have set this one to govern all those which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest."[5]
Text

Not claiming that Star S0-102, is in fact Kolob, or is it?

Great find!

Reply to post by FractalChaos13242017

Not sure if it could be Kolob, could be, could also be the plural of Kolob spelt backwards

Very interesting analogy OP, definitely makes sense to me, maybe of all the mythologies and religions, the Greeks had it right, and were scientific, while using their deities as a metaphor for something scientific.


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reply to post by FractalChaos13242017


Old stories tend to have interconnections. But they lay in a mist because of the cultural differences between the storytellers.

And what comes to the stars whirling around the black hole, well that might be an intriguing show to watch.

So could Zeus spitting open Cronus' stomach have been an explanation for the Big Bang? Or do you think that the myth describes an as of yet future event? I really like this theory.

reply to post by Josephus


I haven't tied it to any particular event. The big bang in my mind happens when Chaos, the state at the beginning divides into several deities. I think of this story of Cronus more or less like the systematics and behavior of a black hole.

Another interesting point might be this... When I consider the chronology of the whole event there is one thing that bothers me a bit. Earth is born before the Stars. Could Uranus (the Stars) be a reference of our point of view in the past. Because Earth (Gaia) brings forth the stars, hills and water before there is a marriage between Gaia and Uranus. I think this could be interpreted as of our planet was not born in our solar system, but arrived here later and 'gave birth' to our known view.

Well, you might start by finding out what the Greeks knew about Cosmology -- which wasn't that much.

Originally posted by OnWhiteMars
I'm no expert in the field, but as I understand it we start out with Chaos. Chaos is the state before 'creation', before 'division'. From Chaos comes out Light, Day, Darkness and Night (Aether, Hemera, Erebus and Nyx). These are considered as primordial deities. Light and Day breeds Earth (Gaia) and Earth creates her surroundings; Stars, Hills and Oceans (Uranus, Ourea and Pontus).

You might find Wikipedia a better reference for this... and Uranus isn't "stars", but "the sky" en.wikipedia.org...

I just love a good story and this is what Greek Mythology offers. But could there be a reference in there?

In order to understand Black Holes you have to know about galaxies and stars (they didn't know about other galaxies or other bodies orbiting other suns.) You have to be able to calculate gravitation (which they could) and then be able to measure the bending of light by gravity (which they couldn't... no telescopes or optic devices) and you have to be able to understand light as both wave and particle (which they didn't) and how time behaves in relation to speed and gravity (which they didn't.) You have to be able to describe both the atom and components of atoms and understand subatomic structures.

And to all those things, you have to have the tools that can measure effects and groups who can confirm the results using the same or similar tools.

It seems like a simple concept to us, and although the ancients had wonderful ideas there was a difference in things that they based on their reality and things that they imagined (like the "Sandbank of Horrible of Face" in the Duat (that's from the Ancient Egyptian Book of the Dead).) But the reality requires a lot of background tools that they didn't have.

They might imagine a spirit that whispered the time of day to you (they didn't do that, but they COULD have)... but this doesn't mean they foretold my digital watch.

reply to post by Byrd

You might find Wikipedia a better reference for this... and Uranus isn't "stars", but "the sky"

There are sources that connects him with the starry sky.

Hesiod's Theogony (116ff) tells how, after Chaos, Gaia (i.e. Earth) arose as the everlasting foundation of the gods of Olympus. Gaia brought forth Uranus, the starry sky, her equal, to cover her, the hills (Ourea), and the fruitless deep of the Sea, Pontus, "without sweet union of love," out of her own self through parthenogenesis.

Well, you might start by finding out what the Greeks knew about Cosmology -- which wasn't that much.

Well, I never really pointed out that Greeks knew cosmology. What if the story itself is older? Anyhow... weird that they somehow came up with a story with such resemblance to the beginning of our universe. Even the terms (deity names) match quite good.

As for black holes, yeah, they are tricky to observe without know-how.

But in your honest opinion, wouldn't Cronus' manners be just right for black hole?

OURANOS (or Uranus) was the primeval god (protogenos) of the sky. The Greeks imagined the sky as a solid dome of brass, decorated with stars, whose edges descended to rest upon the outermost limits of the flat earth. Ouranos was the literal sky, just as his consort Gaia was the earth.

Seems to me that Uranus was a bundle. Sky with stars.

OURANOS & THE BIRTH OF THE KOSMOS

I) THE HESIODIC COSMOGONY

Hesiod, Theogony 115 ff (trans. Evelyn-White) (Greek epic C8th or C7th B.C.) :
"Verily at first Khaos (Air) came to be, but next wide-bosomed Gaia (Earth) . . . and dim Tartaros (Hell) in the depth of the wide-pathed Earth, and Eros (Love), fairest among the deathless gods, who unnerves the limbs and overcomes the mind and wise counsels of all gods and all men within them. From Khaos (Air) came forth Erebos (Darkness) and black Nyx (Night); but of Nyx (Night) were born Aither (Light) and Hemera (Day), whom she conceived and bore from union in love with Erebos. And Gaia (Earth) first bore starry Ouranos (Heaven), equal to herself, to cover her on every side, and to be an ever-sure abiding-place for the blessed gods. And she brought forth long Ourea (Mountains) . . . She bore also the fruitless deep with his raging swell, Pontos (Sea), without sweet union of love."

The Greeks were philosophers, so it stands to reason that some of their stories might be more than stories. Every myth is based on a grain of truth, and they tried to help the less "enlightened" ones understand the universe and its wonders through parables...sound familiar?

Again, legends and myths, stigma and superstition, are all the science of the uneducated. But even the science of the uneducated is based on some form of truth, even if it's only a personal experience that got blown out of proportion by fear-mongering. If that's what happened, then good luck proving it.

If they could see a black hole from Earth at that point in time we would be dead....

reply to post by OnWhiteMars


What is black holes are just Huge infinite Hard drives/ Data Storage/ History of everything it has encountered?

could be a possibility.

reply to post by LucidDreamer85


If we jump out of mythology for a sec... I definately think they are storagies. In fact they probably store other universes. Maybe they ought to be seen as the connecting cables between hard drives.

jesus aka je-zeus they all sound the same to me. remember the gods lost their power when the dumbed down people stopped worshiping them. aries ran with phobos diemos those two moons of mars. spacecraft occupied by the greys.our moon is also a spacecraft. all can i say is never i mean NEVER worship anything outside yourself.. the Creator does not require worship!!!

reply to post by 12 stranded dna

all can i say is never i mean NEVER worship anything outside yourself.. the Creator does not require worship!!!

I have always believed this. Never would a parent desire to be worshiped by their child. They would be far more pleased to watch their children grow on their own, provide assistance where necessary, and intervene if there was any real danger.

But where is "God" now? I say that if it would be punished on earth, it should be no different anywhere else. I don't care who you are or what you've accomplished, you do not relinquish responsibility over a species that you created to worship you. Why would I revere such a being?

It's sad when the Greek and Roman gods and goddesses make so much more sense than this.

If you look hard enough at any mythology you can retro-fit your present biases and technological knowledge into them. I suggest you look at Shinto legends, if you want to impose western cosmology into old mythological stories that is a great place to find stuff to do so!

reply to post by Hanslune


Thanks for the tip. I have to take a dip in it. Funny term, retro-fit... There was no forcing of anything here, just calling it as I see it. And if it fits, it fits

reply to post by AfterInfinity


God didn't create us to worship Him, He gave us free will, all that is bad in the world was not created by Him, it was created by mankind, we are our own worst enemy, not God, He tolerates us.

reply to post by polyphemus75


well put ..... its our choice to f up!

peace