Seeking god.

Originally posted by swan001
reply to post by rhinoceros

 

I was perplexed by the time scale anomaly too. A good christian of mine explained to me that Genesis didn't happen in 6 days as usually though. It was revealed through 6 days. Like episodes, so that the inspired guy who wrote down Genesis would have time to write it down.

So basically, "god" could have created the universe in bilion of years, he just revealed the important parts in a 6-episode series which we call Genesis.

edit on 8-10-2012 by swan001 because: (no reason given)

If a day can mean a billion years, then "do not" might just as well mean "do" or more often "don't care" as is the case with all those rules that Christians don't follow although they are right there in the Old Testament. Who gets to decide what parts are to be taken literally? You don't see a problem here? It's the same story with the recently revealed papyrus that talks about the wife of Jesus. Just because this text didn't make it to be part of the "official story" as established in the 16th century, the Vatican stated that it was fake

reply to post by rhinoceros


The papyrus was proved a hoax. Some masons were... very keen to prove Jesus wrong.


And yes, I saw alot of problems with the OT. I talked them out with my good friend. Believe it or not, it all, at the end, makes a creepy kind of sense. Shall I introduce you to him? I am no christian, he's better than me.

He usually is very, er, secretive around here but I can see if he wants to talk. You better be serious, though. I don't want someone to waste the other's time.

Originally posted by swan001
reply to post by rhinoceros
The papyrus was proved a hoax.

Was it now? Care to provide a reference? It certainly doesn't say so in the wiki page. Is the Gospel of Mary a hoax too?

I mean, I love the whole concept of salvation through the Son of God, and the amazing teachings of Jesus. But even if I seek God all my life, It is impossible for me to deny cosmological evolution(until proven otherwise by science anyways).

Jesus replied, “What is impossible with men is possible with God.”

Can I suggest that it doesn't work on your terms? He will strip your false beliefs from you, so be prepared. Each one will fall as He shows you His Truth. Above all, He is Creator - declared from one end of the Bible to the other. Your heart, by taking this stance, has not been humbled. True repentance requires just that. Setting conditions like you have above tells me that you are not prepared to trust Him should He show you the truth of the matter. Is there enough love of truth in your heart that when He shows you your error that you will let it go? Examine your heart and see why you need man to prove something to you when it is only He that saves His Creation.

I am a Christian Mystic, and also believe in cosmological evolution.

To me, Genesis is metaphorical and/or there is much more to that story than meets the eye. I also don't agree with or am bothered by many things in the OT, such as the OT God requiring blood animal sacrifices to cover for man's sin.

So I basically let the gray areas slide, knowing I will eventually see what really happened when I leave this plain and reunite w/ God. However I am in Love with the NT and especially the teachings of Christ, which has personally lead me to HUGE mystical insights, awakenings, ego deaths, third eye opening, and proverbially peeking behind the veils of reality.

Since a child, I've evolved intellectually, mentally, physically, and spiritually, so for me there is really no schism between Spirituality and Cosmological Evolution, even though both sides say each other side is wrong.


However, I have to really stress that science has yet to account for the existence of the Soul. For example I have remembered existing as a soul prior to being born in a body on earth. So in a sense both the Spiritual and Scientific branches of study are right, however there is still a wall and schism between the two, and eventually when the 2 come together, then we will make HUGE leaps and bounds in our understandings.

I see the Christians who deny Evolution as basically the same kind of Christians who back in antiquity denied that the earth was round or that the earth revolves around the sun instead of vice versa. They are basically stuck in an old fashioned form of thought because the Bible doesn't necessarily cover scientific thought, but rather Spiritually only.

Originally posted by dominicus
However, I have to really stress that science has yet to account for the existence of the Soul.

Such things do not exist. Feel free to prove me wrong. Oh, you can't? Of course, I can't likewise prove that they don't exist. It's the same with with purple unicorns and Santa Claus too. They are just as likely to exist, or not exist. Consider the following though. People who believe in souls tend to think that people's personalities reflect their souls. However, people's personalities can change completely from, for example, a single blow to the head. Like, for example, a loving father can become an abusive a**hole, in a second, just like that. All that is needed is brain injury to the correct spot.

Originally posted by AdamLaw
Hello guys, I have started a thread yesterday about how an Atheist could become a christian. I must say that i got a lot of u2u replies and replies in the thread also that gave me great insight in how to find God.


Is it possible to be a christian and not give up cosmological evolution. I think that the main thing keeping me away from God is not a lack of faith in a Creator itself but a disbelief in the the whole premise of Genesis.

I mean, I love the whole concept of salvation through the Son of God, and the amazing teachings of Jesus. But even if I seek God all my life, It is impossible for me to deny cosmological evolution(until proven otherwise by science anyways).

My question is :

Is it possible to be a christian but not believe in Genesis and still think the Big Bang theory is right and that singularity, all 4 forces and inflation are products of God? Or one can not simply chooses as it fits him and must take the whole package?

edit on 7-10-2012 by AdamLaw because: (no reason given)

my dear friend, yes it is very very possible. I and the people around me believe just what you say, because it is true. Have u actually read through the bible, like a book perhaps? It's insightful and highly symbolic. The seven days in Genesis were really like 7 thousand/hundred thousand/million years. Remember time is linear and only really exists to US. Anywho God making the world is/was Evolution...Look deeper into yourself and connect with astrology and nature, meditate deeply and connect with your inner being. its hard but you CAN do it! the feeling youve had of everything being connected and the cyclical .well cycles for lack of a better word, of the Earth of the world and of humans and how those cycles are effected by one another. youve probably always felt God but with society in your face telling you how you are supposed to perceive God you may have gotten confused and doubtful with yourself...idk, I wish you luck!!!! look up hermeticism also for a deeper insight

reply to post by rhinoceros

Such things do not exist.

That's an absolute statement and you can't prove this, hence your best position is to be neutral about this instead of saying that "this is so".

Feel free to prove me wrong. Oh, you can't? Of course, I can't likewise prove that they don't exist.

Right now science is not looking for God or for the soul, they don't have the tools necessary yet to quantify these things, and we may have to wait another 100-500 years until the tech gets sensitive enough to finally prove these things.

For myself, I heard these things are so, with held all judgement, investigated for myself, and found them experientially, to be true. Have since found quite a large amount of folks, both personally, and on the Net, who also have spoken of what they have found. What your not considering, is that perhaps some things can only be known or proven, by direct experience.

It's the same with with purple unicorns and Santa Claus too. They are just as likely to exist, or not exist.

I am not claiming to have personally experienced unicorns or santa. I am, however, claiming t have experienced myself as pure consciousness, remembering to have existed as pure consciousness prior to being born here, having (as pure consciousness) left the body and returned to it, and having (as pure consciousness) experienced merging with an infinite consciousness.

No when I research these experiences, I am finding massive amounts of others who are speaking of these same exact things, in the present time. Then when I study history, I am finding massive amounts of these same kinds of testimonials across the board of antiquity in all corners of the earth.

On the other had, I have never experienced Unicorns or Santa and also as a lover of Science, I see that consciousness was, until the last 15 years, been a taboo subject in science and the scientific study of consciousness is roughly about 2 decades old and very young.

Consider the following though. People who believe in souls tend to think that people's personalities reflect their souls. However, people's personalities can change completely from, for example, a single blow to the head. Like, for example, a loving father can become an abusive a**hole, in a second, just like that. All that is needed is brain injury to the correct spot.

For me it is not simply "believing" that I am a soul, but having a direct experience that I am soul tends to go alot further than mere belief just like believing that strawberry ice cream is good, but experiencing it goes alot further.

On top of that, as soul, I speak of Awareness, in that I am aware of my mind thinking, eyes seeing, personality acting, etc. Were I too get hit in the head and have a complete personality change, as Awareness, I would still be aware of this new personality. All the blows and changes of personality in the world won't change the fact that at the very core/center is awareness that remains the same throughout one's life. That, ultimately, is the soul.

Originally posted by swan001
reply to post by jiggerj

 

Although you were previously know for being quite objective, I must say I am under the impression you actually attempt to discredit christianism these days.

You got that from my post?

I'm merely saying that there have been people who disagreed with the Roman Catholic Church and set out to follow their own Christian beliefs. List of Christian denominations

I don't think any one person agrees 100% with another person's view of the bible or Christianity, so why not just start your own personal religion?

Originally posted by dominicus
I am not claiming to have personally experienced unicorns or santa. I am, however, claiming t have experienced myself as pure consciousness, remembering to have existed as pure consciousness prior to being born here, having (as pure consciousness) left the body and returned to it, and having (as pure consciousness) experienced merging with an infinite consciousness.

No when I research these experiences, I am finding massive amounts of others who are speaking of these same exact things, in the present time. Then when I study history, I am finding massive amounts of these same kinds of testimonials across the board of antiquity in all corners of the earth.

There are probably 1,000s of people alive right now who are absolutely certain that they were e.g. Jesus or Napoleon in one of their past lives.

reply to post by rhinoceros

Text There are probably 1,000s of people alive right now who are absolutely certain that they were e.g. Jesus or Napoleon in one of their past lives.

Did i say anything about people claiming to be jesus or Napoleon or someone else famous in a past life? No

Have i said that i was someone famous in a past life? No

Have any of the people that i know, who have experienced the same things as i have, claimed to be someone famous in a past life? No

I don't know where this statement from you came from (left field) or how it exactly has any weight to discredit any of the claims i have made.

All types of people do all sorts of things and say all sorts of things, both spiritual folks and atheist/agnostic. None of that would take us away from a soul existing in each individual, especially since the popular notion in main stream academia is that there is no such thing, assumed, since they dont look for souls and have yet to understand consciousness

Originally posted by dominicus
reply to post by rhinoceros

 

Text There are probably 1,000s of people alive right now who are absolutely certain that they were e.g. Jesus or Napoleon in one of their past lives.

Did i say anything about people claiming to be jesus or Napoleon or someone else famous in a past life? No

Have i said that i was someone famous in a past life? No

Have any of the people that i know, who have experienced the same things as i have, claimed to be someone famous in a past life? No

I don't know where this statement from you came from (left field) or how it exactly has any weight to discredit any of the claims i have made.

All types of people do all sorts of things and say all sorts of things, both spiritual folks and atheist/agnostic. None of that would take us away from a soul existing in each individual, especially since the popular notion in main stream academia is that there is no such thing, assumed, since they dont look for souls and have yet to understand consciousness

The point was that people can be convinced of something having happened to them, but it doesn't make it true. Our memory isn't infallible. Take, for example, my memory of growing in the womb. There's this watery sound and everything is sort of dark red/orange. I was there. Except, obviously this is not a memory, but just something I saw in the TV. For one, IRL, due to the lack of any light source, I could not have seen anything. If I didn't know better, I would have a very hard time not knowing that this wasn't a real memory. Now, if the majority of people had such memories as yours, then I'd say that there was something to it, however, this is obviously not the case. Further still, consciousness is an emergent property of the brain. Prior to your brain having existed, you could not have accumulated any memories. Hell, we don't really even remember in general anything from the first few years of our lives..

yes....you can be a christian but still have your own sub-beliefs of the world around you.You know in your own inner self if you are good or evil,if any person living has to question if they are good or evil for simplistic ideas,they are not a person of good reason,"in simplified terms"they do not know there A@# from a hole in the ground".....lol peace be with you and godbless-EasyRider

reply to post by rhinoceros

The point was that people can be convinced of something having happened to them, but it doesn't make it true.

I was once convinced of no such thing as God. I stated researching and saw that there were claims of direct experiences of an Infinite Beingness. I read what it took to get there, particularly things concerning mysticism and ego death, and never in million years thought that these direct experiences would happen to me, but they did. Now I'm 100% convinced that we have existed prior to a body, the real us is units of consciousness individualized having come from an infinite consciousness, and we will all return to that.

There are too many people having these experiences and NDE's to simply say, "Oh they're just convincing themselves of delusion"

I cannot deny direct experience nor can I deny having remembered pre-existng prior to being in the womb or having a body. On top of that, there are already scientific theories that consciousness can be non-local and independent of a brain.

Our memory isn't infallible.

That's fine and dandy. Still we have direct experience then. There are blueprints on how to get to these experiences and I have shown at least a handful of others, 2 of them being former atheists, on how to reach these direct experiences and how to leave the body.

The blueprints are there, but requires one to be neutral of all stances and requires investigation and practice. If you automatically take the stance that none of this is true, then you will never investigate for yourself and will remain living in a bias bubble of your own making.

Take, for example, my memory of growing in the womb. There's this watery sound and everything is sort of dark red/orange. I was there. Except, obviously this is not a memory, but just something I saw in the TV. For one, IRL, due to the lack of any light source, I could not have seen anything. If I didn't know better, I would have a very hard time not knowing that this wasn't a real memory.

Well if you saw this on TV and tricked yourself, that's your own problem. My memory of pre-existence came from the soul level, after doing extensive inquiry into what "soul" is. It wasn't something that came from the mind, but came from a very deep inner part of self, such as intuition, which comes prior to the mind and its logic/rational.

Just as well, these experiences which I speak of. They happen instantly and prior to anything that mind can make up. It is only in retrospect does the mind say, "Wow, so I am consciousness and just experienced the source of who I really am."

Now, if the majority of people had such memories as yours, then I'd say that there was something to it, however, this is obviously not the case.

Of course its not the case because the majority of people have been dumbed down, biased, and aren't looking for or investigating that which I speak of. The majority of academia is biased against anything God or Soul, the rest of folks simply take what the church tells them on faith, and many more are wrapped up in the materialism race, or glued to their tv's/smart phones.

Not too many folks go on a philosophical spiritual journey that makes one look within to see what is there. BEcause we are a minority, does not mean we are not right.

Further still, consciousness is an emergent property of the brain. Prior to your brain having existed, you could not have accumulated any memories.

I disagree 100%. Like I said there are already scientific theories floating around based on non-local consciousness, which means you would need to update your current knowledge base. Your speaking in absolutes, but you should have a neutral stance and be more open to the possibilities of a soul.
pre-life memories

Hell, we don't really even remember in general anything from the first few years of our lives..

At the end of the day, this is just your biased take, and I don't blame you. I too, once was an atheist, looked around at the greatest minds of the world to see what everyone has to say. I once too was a materialist. However I remained neutral and studied philosophy, mysticism, and religion. When I eventually found that folks were speaking of experiencing the Infinite .....well how could I ever pass up such an opportunity. I followed some blueprints and arrived at the destination, and let me tell you there is no place better.

I understand truly where you're coming from, but as a former atheist who knew every argument there was against the soul and God, and now being a philosopher and mystic, there is just too much fire power for the argument of the existence of the Soul and God and the beautiful thing is the invitation is open for u to also see for yourself if there is such an experience

Originally posted by AdamLaw
Hello guys, I have started a thread yesterday about how an Atheist could become a christian. I must say that i got a lot of u2u replies and replies in the thread also that gave me great insight in how to find God.


Is it possible to be a christian and not give up cosmological evolution. I think that the main thing keeping me away from God is not a lack of faith in a Creator itself but a disbelief in the the whole premise of Genesis.

I mean, I love the whole concept of salvation through the Son of God, and the amazing teachings of Jesus. But even if I seek God all my life, It is impossible for me to deny cosmological evolution(until proven otherwise by science anyways).

My question is :

Is it possible to be a christian but not believe in Genesis and still think the Big Bang theory is right and that singularity, all 4 forces and inflation are products of God? Or one can not simply chooses as it fits him and must take the whole package?

edit on 7-10-2012 by AdamLaw because: (no reason given)

Why do you need to accept a label?

Is it possible you can study the materials you wish to study, and find your own truths without labeling yourself?

Why can't evolution exist simultaneously with the beliefs of religion?

Originally posted by jiggerj
You got that from my post?

No, from what I saw in other threads.

I'm merely saying that there have been people who disagreed with the Roman Catholic Church and set out to follow their own Christian beliefs. List of Christian denominations

Obviously. Roman catholic church was corrupted, and included concepts like the concept of Hell, which wasn't there in the original version of the Bible.

I don't think any one person agrees 100% with another person's view of the bible or Christianity, so why not just start your own personal religion?

Because once you do that your own personal desires will mix to this religion and cloud your perception. More individualism means a vision which is less objective.

I, my side, believe in nothing: neither current christianism, neither atheism. I see flaws in both. I try to be objective. I see too much attacks going on while both thinkings are actually inaccurate... I guess you could call me a nihilist.

Originally posted by swan001


I, my side, believe in nothing: neither current christianism, neither atheism. I see flaws in both. I try to be objective. I see too much attacks going on while both thinkings are actually inaccurate... I guess you could call me a nihilist.

Oh I'm right there with ya. It's just easier to say I'm an atheist, when in reality I'm a truth seeker. And, you're right, both camps leave a lot to be desired.

No, god did not create the universe.
No, the universe was not created from nothing.

reply to post by jiggerj


you need a higher law, like all of us, not your fault by the way, I need it too- don't fight it brother, accept it

Originally posted by blueorder
reply to post by jiggerj

 

you need a higher law, like all of us, not your fault by the way, I need it too- don't fight it brother, accept it

Do you really know your history? In no way am I blaming religion. I'm just saying that the belief in a higher power (and higher laws) by the majority of people on the planet has done NOTHING to improve or alleviate mankind's murderous greed, jealousy, hatred, ignorance...

So, no, I don't need a higher law. We all need a simple law - don't hurt anyone. That's it.

Originally posted by rhinoceros
If a day can mean a billion years, then "do not" might just as well mean "do" or more often "don't care" as is the case with all those rules that Christians don't follow although they are right there in the Old Testament.

I usually get the feeling, with the many different interpretations of things like the bible, that it is simply an admittance of the original text being too obviously ridiculous to contemplate. So then we have to come up with an interpretation that makes it less rediculous and allows us to keep our mythical belief intact and safe. After all, the last thing most religion needs, or has much hope of surviving, is critical appraisal.

Originally posted by dominicus

Right now science is not looking for God or for the soul, they don't have the tools necessary yet to quantify these things, and we may have to wait another 100-500 years until the tech gets sensitive enough to finally prove these things.

Why should they be looking? Is there a genuine, objective reason to suppose there is any such thing? In fact many of the experiences which lead people to these beliefs can be replicated artificially. There is no real reason (beyond anecdotes) to suppose there is any body/soul duality or really any such thing as a soul.

For myself, I heard these things are so, with held all judgement, investigated for myself, and found them experientially, to be true. Have since found quite a large amount of folks, both personally, and on the Net, who also have spoken of what they have found. What your not considering, is that perhaps some things can only be known or proven, by direct experience.

Fascinating stuff. Similar profound experience has led me to the strong likelihood that there is no such thing as the soul, nor any notion of individuality beyond this temporal life.The religious notion of the soul (IMO) seems based on the fear that we won't be "us" any more at the end of it.

Though perhaps what I see as consciousness, is what you are referring to the soul? I can't help note that what we think of as consciousness appears more obvious and developed in more advanced creatures (with more advanced nervous systems) hinting that it is something that evolved. In fact I doubt whether it is something that exists separately to matter and (personally) see no reason to believe in the body/soul duality. It is fascinating to view evolution this way and it seems (IMO) that consciousness will be explainable by natural processes. There has been some good work particularly tracing the rise in intelligence from Australopiths onwards by studying brain casings and finding certain physical areas of the brain consistent with cultural anthropology.



Though I agree that no one, as yet, has really understood or quantified exactly what consciousness is. This leads to many fascinating possibilities and I feel that one day these answers will not only put an end to popular religion and it's notions, but the truth we do find could possibly (very likely IMO) be far more wondrous.