"How did we get the short end of the stick" [Africans place in religion]

First let me give you some background info on myself. I'm an African American, male. I have faith in Christianity, that's not my religion of choice, nor have I actually read the whole Bible. However, it is the religion that I was raised on (my grandmother and mother as well were of the same faith).
Me and my wife we watching a youtube series called "know your enemy." A particular video, it speaks on the Jews and how they are the "chosen people." It goes on to say how God chose the Jews and blessed them with there own land. And how God would oppose anyone who stood against "his people."
This prompted my wife to turn to me and ask "How did we get the short end of the stick?" I was baffled by her question, because I found myself wondering the same thing. Were did we stand in the bible. If I'm correct, we are descendants of Ham, which in turn bought about Egypt. But why? Why the plagues, why punish us? The other day I stumbled across a wise man. He asked me "why do I worship my oppressors God?" I still dont understand what he meant.
WHats your view on Africans place in history? Whats your view on Jews being the "chosen people." What did he mean by I "worship my oppressors God?"

reply to post by RedRebel5


That its a very deep question with unfortunately many different views will come into play, so before others with their opinions come in, I would like to say something. Some of the answers will be upsetting, and some confusing, all in all find what makes you happy and what is right for you, because in the end you have to live with what you may find.

Peace, NRE.

Nevermind. Delete.

reply to post by RedRebel5

Whats your view on Jews being the "chosen people." What did he mean by I "worship my oppressors God?"

"Are ye not as children of the Ethiopians unto me, O children of Israel? saith the LORD. Have not I brought up Israel out of the land of Egypt? and the Philistines from Caphtor, and the Syrians from Kir?"
-Amos 9:7

I cant advise you on religion, especially Christianity, pimarily because it is a story much like all the other religion's stories all throughout the world. But I can offer you this...

David Icke, and there are many here on ATS who despise him, presents the theory that black people are the true earthlings. The idea behind it is that the earth has a certain frequency that it vibrates to and that frequency is the exact same as the frequency of a black person. White people have the same frequency as... Mars.

As for black people in history I would advise you to read Indaba My Children by Credo Mutwa. If ever there was a bible for Africans this would be it. Christians had their paper bible, the egyptians their papyrus and hyroglyphs. But Africans keep their beliefs alive through age old stories that are passed from one generation to the next. These are those stories.

It's a wonderful book, I read it every three years just because it's that good.

Good luck.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

Originally posted by RedRebel5
But why? Why..., why...

Good question. You don't know. I don't know. The Pope doesn't know.

You said you have faith in the Christian religion but it's not your religion of choice. Which one would you choose? Why?

People are usually indoctrinated into religious/non-religious beliefs by their parents. Here's some food for thought; why would someone who decides their religion isn't the "right one" go off and follow another one? I would think if someone realized their religion was wrong, they could see the others for what they are -- more of the same.

Religions are kind of like mafia families. Some clash while others work together. What's the goal, you ask? I don't know...money, power, control? I'm too busy with today to worry about tomorrow, much less yesterday.

reply to post by RedRebel5


In Christianity- believers become part of Israel (God's people). The Church/Body of Christ is Israel.

Galations 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

And, seriously, everyone's ancestors weren't Christian. Also, have you ever met any African Christians? The Copts are some seriously awesome and reverent folks (Ethiopians, especially). Africa was evangelized early on by St. Mark the Apostle. (Alexandria ring any bells?) Africa was well-known for the Desert Fathers. There are Christian monasteries all over the place (even at Mt. Sinai).

I'm really looking forward to the conversation that should follow the opening post.

I am somewhat new to studying religion/spirituality, it's been about two and a half years.

During this time, I have found some of the most thought provoking and insightful ideas come from the traditional shamanistic ideologies common among tribal Africa. Such as the ideas that God is found in all objects, living or dead. And that studying nature, from the small scale of biology on Earth to the large scale of cosmology, can provided much added wisdom. There is also some yearning in me to live closer to the land, as opposed to primarily off of advanced technology and modern man created infrastructure.

I think it is incorrect to take the plagues of Egypt and interpret as condemning Africans. I would say it was more a verdict on the oppressive regime of the time, and a condemnation of slavery/oppression in general.

Now, there is the issue of the historical treatment in Africans by Christians. I hope that this can be viewed as atrocities committed outside of pure Christianity, and the perpetrators were Christian in name only.

As it turns out, the stories of the Bible have been accepted and applied primarily by people of European ancestry. In any society, there will be some unfair judgement on those perceived as outsiders. It is disappointing that the philosophy of Africa is mostly lost to Americans.

There is some hope in the future, though. As economic ties strengthen between people in Africa and America there should be some enhanced cultural respect.

When it comes to the differences in how Africa and Europe/America have developed their societies to this point, the primary factor is geography and not genetics. It will be interesting to see the extent that Africa embraces industrialization and technology in the coming decades.


I think the point I'd like to make above all others is that any aspect of a religion that asks the practicing individual to perceive another group of people as lesser should be dismissed by that individual as an outdated historical precedent. It is up to each individual in various religions to read scripture, take it in the context of modern society, then use whatever parts remain inspiring and helpful to live a life at a higher ethic in the journey to try and understand our universe at it's highest level.

reply to post by RedRebel5

Acts 10:34-35 Worldwide English (New Testament) (WE) 34 Then Peter began to speak, `I really understand now. God does not love some people more than others. 35 But he takes anyone who obeys him. He takes anyone who does what is right. It does not matter to what nation they belong.

God Almighty is the God of all men.

We all descend from Adam.


God promised that a Messiah would come to the earth and undo what Adam had done. This was accomplished through Abraham's descendants. They were God's chosen people for a purpose.

I am a European American and since I'm not a Jew ether. I am right there in the boat with you.

Alright i believe i can break down a few things objectively. Let's see what we got.

I have faith in Christianity, that's not my religion of choice, nor have I actually read the whole Bible.

You should read or skim through the whole thing at some point. Me? Not a christian. Let's get down to brass tacs. Evidence of a greater power? Yes. Greater than us? Yup, look at nature. There is a harmony going on and we have to figure out our place in it. Microwave to desired temperature and serve with TLC.

However, it is the religion that I was raised on (my grandmother and mother as well were of the same faith).

Slavery my man. Look into why Christianity was taught to slaves. Now don't everyone go and spaz, it's our America.

A particular video, it speaks on the Jews and how they are the "chosen people." It goes on to say how God chose the Jews and blessed them with there own land. And how God would oppose anyone who stood against "his people."

Oh really? So i guess he dropped the ball when they were made slaves then? Or.. when it was just Pakistan and and Israel was just a Zionist dream. Hmm, i wonder. One of the many questions that is raised in the OT. That book is kinda off. There are alot of things that folks don't agree with you know, it's counter productive. But you have to break it down and the OT is collection of folklore, myths and tales passed down via oral tradition by those of the Jewish background. They wrote it, formed a religion around it, shopped it around, and folks bought it hook, line, and sinker.

I will say this, when taken together with the likes of Hindu holy texts and Buddhists scripture the same basic question are being asked. They are asked in different ways, hence different religions but they are all asking the same questions. You have to think and self reflect on those answers and when you have them, religion has fulfilled its purpose.

Don't look at me, i didn't write the rules, i'm a referee.

I was baffled by her question, because I found myself wondering the same thing. Were did we stand in the bible.

The correct answer is not where but when. America wasn't around at that time much less African-American. The Holy Bible is based around the Middle East and those regions. Where are the Chinese, Indians (in INDIA), Black Foot, Hopi, Aztecs or Mayans mentioned in the bible? What about the Aborigines?

If I'm correct, we are descendants of Ham, which in turn bought about Egypt. But why? Why the plagues, why punish us?

If we're the descendants of Ham, then just about every other African descendant in the western hemisphere is also a member of that tribe. And when you start thinking logistics, that's a to big of a tribe to be factual. Like i said, i ain't gonna totally write off.. but plausible? Nah.

WHats your view on Africans place in history?

Africans place in history? Wrong question chief. Can't question Africans place in history at least in the current Western mode because it all came from Greece or Rome anyway from their point of view. Little to no Africans in the equation.. except for the Moors. If you want the truth then you have to go beyond the mainstream, IE what they teach in school. And some of what is in books too because even they are slanted if the author has an agenda. It's not a story of Africans, but a story of "us". Because we simply build upon was someone else has started. Culture goes hard like that. Bless the Indians and their numbers because Trig would be hell with Roman numerals!

What did he mean by I "worship my oppressors God?"

Answered in second response.

Also, your question of "why did we get the short end of the stick" has no simple answer.... Well, I lied. If you want the truth then blunty; The 1% wanted more. The illusion of us getting the short end of the stick (yea i know, it's one bitchin illusion) was put in place so that 1% could rob everybody. While we are arguing about differences that were brought on by geographical locations they can continue to rob everyone blind and controlling the masses. The truth hurts sometimes...

What did he mean by I "worship my oppressors God?"

Naturally, he was referencing slavery.

And Africa does have an important place in Orthodox Christianity; in fact, the largest Christian church in Africa is the Coptic Orthodox Church.

Those are good questions OP, I'm not sure the answers ..... I will say I was born or shortly after I was born I was made Catholic by my family, went to Catholic schools for all my life, while they did give me a good education I still wanted more.... to know more about the God we were chosen to worship.

Anyway, long story short I am no longer Catholic, at least I don't see myself that way. Do I believe in God ... yes to a degree I do, I believe there is a "power" out there and it is bigger than anyone or anything, is he/she the God I was taught to worship, I don't think so. If I had to choose a religion it would be the I DON'T KNOW religion!! LOL

Anyway as far as why the Jews are the "chosen people" I think it's all based on who wrote the book!

reply to post by RedRebel5

"How did we get the short end of the stick?"

Lack of personal responsibility, i mean you can't even take responsibility for choosing to believe in Christianity.

reply to post by PatrickGarrow17

I think the point I'd like to make above all others is that any aspect of a religion that asks the practicing individual to perceive another group of people as lesser should be dismissed by that individual as an outdated historical precedent.

Wow. Beautifully stated.
Just wanted to highlight your post.

Second question first.

The view that the Jews are the chosen people. The bible's answer to that is "G_d" thousands of years ago after the great flood came up with a plan. One that is taking thousands of years to consummate. Starting with Abraham and working through his offspring eventually all families of the earth were to be blessed. And part of that plan is conquering the earth through genetics.

Per the prophesies of Genesis 48 and 49 eventually the Israelites were to become a multitude of nations. And to add to that theme the olive tree parable of Romans 11 points out that Christians are adopted Israelites. The plan is eventually all the people of the planet will be subject to the Leviticus 26 compact. And be one of the chosen people.

Now to your first question. Why are the Africans being punished? Going back to my first response one problem they have is that by now much of Africa's population consists of Israelites now. And Israelites have a major problem. And it's this.

Malachi 4.
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Matthew 17
10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

With the death of John the Baptist the curse of Malach was triggered. So what is this curse? To understand it you would need to read Leviticus 26 and the Covenant the Israelites made with God. Then read the prophesy of the day of Jezreel contained in the book of Hosea.

Simplified it's this. The Jews triggered a 2000 year top level Leviticus 26 curse with the death of John the Baptist. I would say that many of Africa's current problems are related to this curse. The people of Africa are cursed and don't know it.

As far as you worshiping the God of your oppressors well, God works in mysterious ways. Christianity started out as a conquering religion. There were a lot of pagans died resisting it. But the method of how it got to you isn't what's important. It's your choice to follow it or something else.

reply to post by RedRebel5


It was not Ham that was cursed but Canaan, and those nations have already received their punishment.

God does not play favorites and wants all men to come to accurate knowledge of the truth, namely of the Lordship of Jesus Christ and his mission to save mankind by dying on the cross. The cross breaks all curses.

In fact anyone who accepts Jesus becomes part of God's family and then becomes a part of the chosen people. Paul describes this as the ingrafted branch to the trunk of Judaism. In other words as a Christian you become a Jew in the sense of being one of God's chosen people, with all the rights of any Jew or any family member of God.

As for genetic and racial curses, they are all too real. A Kalahari bushman, who became a christian claims that many African tribes pledged allegience to demons somehow associated with the rift valley. So like a lot of pagan groups, they suffered manifold curses. In the same way modern civilization is suffering under several curses associated with evil practices, such as sexual immorality or the murder of children via abortion.

Fortunately through Jesus we can repent of and overcome all these curses.

reply to post by RedRebel5


Africa, in my view, gets the short end of the stick because Africa never really evolved like Europe, the Middle East and Asia.

Do not get me wrong, Africa is a hugely important place for humanity, not least because of origins. However, aside from Ethiopia (Aksum, etc), the last 4000 to 6000 years (and probably longer) have been dominated by humanity elsewhere. Even the North Africans have more in common with the Mediterranean peoples than the rest of Africa, in terms of culture, architecture, etc.

Therefore, as modern humanity has risen, Africa has been left behind. As Europe, Middle East and Asia were developing astronomy, medicine, mathematics, etc, Africa (on the whole) was still in primitive society and therefore (wrongly in my mind) seen as inferior.

Ethiopia is a separate issue for various reasons, not least of which is religion.

Originally posted by Flavian
reply to post by RedRebel5

 

Africa, in my view, gets the short end of the stick because Africa never really evolved like Europe, the Middle East and Asia.

Do not get me wrong, Africa is a hugely important place for humanity, not least because of origins. However, aside from Ethiopia (Aksum, etc), the last 4000 to 6000 years (and probably longer) have been dominated by humanity elsewhere. Even the North Africans have more in common with the Mediterranean peoples than the rest of Africa, in terms of culture, architecture, etc.

Therefore, as modern humanity has risen, Africa has been left behind. As Europe, Middle East and Asia were developing astronomy, medicine, mathematics, etc, Africa (on the whole) was still in primitive society and therefore (wrongly in my mind) seen as inferior.

Ethiopia is a separate issue for various reasons, not least of which is religion.

Very much this. And the reasons? Guns, germs and steel. (Great book by the way)

The agricultural, military and overall climatic need for technological development in colder areas far outweighed any necessity for the same on the (then) almost totally tropical paradise of the African continent.

That being said, Mediterranean immigrants supposedly integrated with some Niger-Congo peoples to bear what would be the progenitors of the Ancient Egyptians themselves... could be wrong on that one, but I'm pretty sure they were mixed.

Either way, by the Middle Ages the sub-Saharan African peoples were, on the whole, too far behind to stand much of a chance against the proliferation of the Arab slave trade and subsequent Islamic thought.

By the 1400s, it was that much easier for the European Christians to justify that which had already been done, and the tribe chieftains were all too ready to comply. Military might and advanced infrastructure sounded too good to pass up, considering what they had to gain against tribal competitors.

So to sum it all up, Africa started competing too late, but it was a geographical problem at its core. I choose not to worship the Abrahamic god of my apparent oppressors for the reasons above, but also due to factors that hold no relevance on this particular thread.

WHats your view on Africans place in history? Whats your view on Jews being the "chosen people." What did he mean by I "worship my oppressors God?"

reply to post by RedRebel5


@ RedRebel

All black people are of the same value as any other race of people to Father God. As far as place in history in this country is concerned, you see it unfolding today. We have many brilliant black leaders in this nation and it will grow stronger as time progresses. Black people can be nation builders when they leave the dependency mind set of the few blacks who poison their minds with dope and hate. Actually that applies to white people also. I see a brilliant future for all black men and women as well as any other race of people.

The Jews of the Sinai convention are not the same as the Jews today. In the era of Moses the nation had a common unity in obedience to God. Today there are less than thirty percent of the nation that actually practices their faith. The book of Revelations tells us that in the gathering of the righteous there will only be 144,000 Jews left of the righteous Jews. If that is correct then you can understand that these 144,00 are what is referenced as chosen. Not the other millions who are not righteous. So my understanding is that just because a person is racially called a Jew does not mean that they are guaranteed to be chosen any more than you are chosen through your Christ Jesus. They were chosen in the era of Moses because every nation of that day was offered the God of Abraham and the Hebrews were the only people who accepted Abraham's God. A national blanket of security is not true.

You asked -- What did he mean by I "worship my oppressors God?"
That is the seed of hatred that I talked about. You worship the God of of the white devil who oppresses your people is what is meant. In order to be a good black person you must learn to be opposite of everything the white culture teaches. This includes the very God of of the lying white devil. Basically that is what this person teaches.

As a white man, even if Jesus was a black man it would not make any difference to me. He would still be the Christ Jesus who is the son of God. He would still be the one who so loved me (as a white man) and gave his life for me to have everlasting life. The same would apply to a yellow or red man. The magic word is love and not race. Once love has overcome hate then you see the truth. A good example in present day is to look at men such as Herman Cain. Study this man and you will see exactly what I am trying to say.
Have a good life and God Bless-----