The Franco/German "save Greece" Scam

reply to post by StraightBananas


I agree with your analysis but not particularly with your conclusion. The scam as you put it is not only on Greece, the scam is that nations that are owed are protecting their interests, this is not giving any help, aid or about saving nations...

Greece military to a point has reasons of being, from NATO obligations, geostrategic positioning and the big bad Turkey that continues to push Greece into a specific kind of militaristic mentality, that is to a point justified.

Now the major Greek problem is corruption, at all levels of society and a very bad, historic even, report card regarding governments. They should never have been let in into the EU, everyone knows this the fact they were relates to the issue above and to the points you raise....

The clear indication that Greece politicians are corrupt and not working for the wellbeing of the populace is the fact that considering the debt it should have folded like Island a default would have been on their own interests even putting them in a worst condition it would be easier and quicker to climb out of the hole they got themselves in...

You could have dismissed things like the Olympics and the airports but there was a huge scandal regarding submarines (repeated in Portugal) that would advance your own point.

reply to post by stumason


I was asking for sources that show what the largest money pit of the entire Greeks budget was.

I am aware of the widespread problems, mate.....

Originally posted by StraightBananas
reply to post by ColCurious

 

What does the 15%-25% represent?

"[...]general tax evasion in Greece is up to 15 percent of the gross national product.
That is 40 to 45 billion € annually.
If we could collect half of the evaded taxes, Greece could solve her problems."

- Nikos Lekkas, head of the Greek tax authority investigation SDOE

Tax exemptions and their shadow economy amount for the remaining ~10%.

Originally posted by StraightBananas
Sources?

No, you do your homework on your own. You don't even have to leave ATS.
I believe it's all here in some threads with links to WSJ, Reuters and the like.
This was all over the renown press at that time.

Originally posted by StraightBananas
So you are denying that Germany was demanding that all these measures would be taken, yet were silent about the crazy defense budget. You also deny that in order for Greece to get any bailout, Germany and France demanded that they would first pay their weapon industries with European money, meant to save the Greece economy?

You are such a good subject.

Like I said, the way Greece implemented their austerity measures is widely estimated as "ill-considered austerity" here.
Do you honestly think Berlin was dictating how exactly Athens had to cut their budgets?
They merely urged them to make their budget work, not how.

Originally posted by StraightBananas
reply to post by stumason

 

I am very much anti EU for the most part.

So am I, by the way.
Just like every upright patriot, no matter where in Europe should be.

Originally posted by StraightBananas
reply to post by stumason

 

I was asking for sources that show what the largest money pit of the entire Greeks budget was.

I am aware of the widespread problems, mate.....

No you didn't. ColCurious listed a whole slew of issues which led to Greece's demise, to wit you replied

"Sources?".

posted by StraightBananas

posted by ColCurous
Yeah, and if you would add up only all the losses of tax revenues (which alone amounted to 25%/GDP already in 2007, shortly before(!) the GFC hit) resulting from far-reaching tax evasion and tax avoidance, major loopholes in Greece’s tax system, failing control mechanisms and a general absence of incentive for tax-payers to disclose their actual taxable incomes, AND the damage Greece's shadow economy caused to their budget, Greece would be more than consolidated today.

Sources?

It is clear, from the sources I gave you, that the paltry $7 billion they spend on defence per year is nothing compared to the staggering level of tax avoidance and corruption in Greece, so it is entirely misleading and dishonest to pretend otherwise, trying to paint the one bit of the overall Greek budget and economy which appears to well run as the poisoned chalice.

reply to post by ColCurious

I must say this is even more preposterous than playing the good old nazi-card.

I'm not playing the nazi-card but the german-card. There is a difference.

Your playing (knowingly or not) the labeling game. When referring to Germany in WWII the label used is "Nazi" but when talking about Japan the label is "Japanese". The simple fact is it was Germany that started WWII and it was germans that went East-West North-South.

Remember those concentration camps in the US for Americans of Japanese heritage? Yeh/No How about, why were there none for Germans with US citizenship? Why the different treatment for Germans who were even in greater numbers in the US during WWII? What's the difference? For me it is just a trick to bring the discussion down to emotional level as you are doing.

Get familiar with

Generalplan Ost

Link which is a continuation of the Teutonic Knights Plans. The first days of war on the Eastern Front showed how Germany was going to do this, murder of civilian population and its elite class.

Your post offers NO INFORMATION. Zero !!!!

Present you analysis and then a discussion can ensue.

So you think that the Teutonic Knights are irrelevant to what is happening today? Germany's elite have changed and just want Peace and Prosperity for All today? The past is irrelevant because we are smarter today?

reply to post by ColCurious

They merely urged them to make their budget work, not how.

That is a factually incorrect statement.

Last night, under strong popular protests, the Greek parliament accepted the latest "austerity package," that the German government had promoted in the form of an ultimatum. This "austerity package" will lead to a 20 percent cut in private revenue and the minimum wage, therefore also in the public sector wages, which are dependent on the minimum wage. One hundred fifty thousand government employees will be laid off. Criticism of Berlin has become sharper because of its efforts to transform Athens into a de facto EU finance protectorate, using so-called austerity commissioners.

Occasional voices of premonition are also heard in Germany. The President of the German Constitutional Court, Andreas Vosskuhle, recently pointed out that budgetary rights, which practically have long since ceased to exist in Greece, are "central elements of a people's democratic decision making process."
"The elected parliamentarians" must therefore "maintain control over fundamental budgetary policy decisions." "European state commissioners and European economic regimes with wide-ranging powers over national budgets" are "not harmless, from the standpoint of democracy."
Vosskuhle warned that, "expertocracy," as it is already being practiced in Greece and Italy and is being discussed for use in other countries, is known to be "the counter-model to parliamentarism." "It would be tragic and downright disastrous, if we lose democracy along the road to salvaging the Euro and more integration."

source

Germany is heavily dictating austerity measures, in fact the payment of bailouts is directly bound to how financial reforms are implemented. I live in Germany too currently, so we both [should] know that this is true. As always google is your friend.

reply to post by stumason

No you didn't. ColCurious listed a whole slew of issues which led to Greece's demise, to wit you replied "Sources?".

So you are a mind reader now?

I responded to this bit,

Yeah, and if you would add up only all the losses of tax revenues (which alone amounted to 25%/GDP already in 2007

All the things he mentioned in the rest of that qoute are part of that suggested 25% of GDP loss.

I asked if he had a source so I could see for myself.

Greece reported a Government Budget deficit equal to 9.10 percent of the country's Gross Domestic Product in 2011.

www.tradingeconomics.com...

If they would've had a normal defense budget of around 2,2%, they would have made back that deficit in a few years.

The situation of not getting enough tax return is not exaxtly the same as clearly having budgets that are disproportionately large.

the paltry $7 billion they spend on defence per year is nothing

It is the straw that broke the camels' back as I pointed out before. It is completely obvious to cut there, but they hardly do, and the recipients of that money want Greece to cut spending everywhere, except there.

reply to post by talklikeapirat


Thank you that was the next thing I was going to adress.

reply to post by Panic2k11

I agree with your analysis but not particularly with your conclusion. The scam as you put it is not only on Greece, the scam is that nations that are owed are protecting their interests, this is not giving any help, aid or about saving nations...

That is my point. I focused on the defense budget and the weapon deals becuase it struck me the most as being dishonest shady business with the two biggest players pulling the strings.

Off course Greece is to blame. I guess I shouldn't have suggested that the defense budget is the only reason, but if they would have had a normal defense budget for the past years, they would not have gone over the edge.

Greece military to a point has reasons of being, from NATO obligations, geostrategic positioning and the big bad Turkey that continues to push Greece into a specific kind of militaristic mentality, that is to a point justified.

Hmm, they are both NATO members so the chance of war is not that big. Also Turkey has suggested mutual defense budget cuts, something Greece refused.

Here is a very interesting interview in which the future of EU is discussed. Sir Goldsmith was one of the few voices that I recall hearing who was against what we have today. What we have today will not stand for an obvious reason, we are not created equal. What is good for Tom is not necessarily good for Fritz.

Enjoy

Google Video Link

He also wrote a book about this called "The Trap"
The Trap

reply to post by talklikeapirat

The "austerity packages" were negotiated between the Troika, combining EU, ECB and IMF (the centralist scum IMO), and the Greek parliament.
The austerity program itself was written, voted on and adopted by the Greek parliament.

So the bailouts were not directly bound to how financial reforms were implemented dictated by Berlin, but to what the Troika negotiated with the Greek parliament.

Berlin naturally wanted to see results before paying more money, but never directly dictated how exactly Greece had to manage her budget.

That's a pretty big difference in my book.

Originally posted by StraightBananas
reply to post by Panic2k11

 

Off course Greece is to blame. I guess I shouldn't have suggested that the defense budget is the only reason, but if they would have had a normal defense budget for the past years, they would not have gone over the edge.

You're almost there.

If they would have had a sound budget over all for the past years, they would not have gone over the edge either.

That's my point. Why cry about their defense budget, when the whole national budget is not consolidated?

reply to post by ColCurious

That's my point. Why cry about their defense budget, when the whole national budget is not consolidated?

Because it is one of the first obvious places to cut. It's easier and faster to cut there than to change their entire structure. It all needs to change, but if they would've have cut this obvious money pit a few years ago, they would not have been in this trouble.

This is a thing they could've changed easily, were it not for Germany and France pushing them not to cut it.

That is my.problem.

We can agree the defense budget is a problem, we can agree the whole tax structure and corruption is a big problem.

Yet nothing is done about the defense budget. Again, cutting the defense budget 3 or 4 years ago would have earned them back their 2011 deficit.

You can't deny this.

Tax avoidance is not by itself the reason for all the trouble. They were in deep trouble earlier but "eyes were shut" to potential and actual problems. Does anyone remember what a hit the 2004 Olympiad in Greece was? To the last minute nothing was REALLY finished. Now it all rots and falls apart.

Here's an angle on the Greek financial crisis I hadn't considered: Victor Matheson, a member of the Sports Economist group blog, argues that one reason the Greeks wound up in such deep financial trouble is that they went deep in hock to pay for the Olympics: Greece's federal government had historically been a profligate spender, but in order to join the euro currency zone, the government was forced to adopt austerity measures that reduced deficits from just over 9% of GDP in 1994 to just 3.1% of GDP in 1999, the year before Greece joined the euro. But the Olympics broke the bank. Government deficits rose every year after 1999, peaking at 7.5% of GDP in 2004, the year of the Olympics, thanks in large part to the 9 billion euro price tag for the Games. For a relatively small country like Greece, the cost of hosting the Games equaled roughly 5% of the annual GDP of the country. Read more: articles.businessinsider.com...

It would be nice to find out who made money on that one because I doubt it was the Greeks. Special surfaces for tracks, electronics, and other expertise I suspect ( I am aware of this fact in the case of Euro 2012) came from countries like Germany, Italy etc.

How to waste money 101

reply to post by tintin2012


My view is that the UK is the greatest cancer on the EU. I'm pro-EU and pro-European federalism. I'm also against centralism and the EU structure we have today but one does not automatically fallow the other.

Each nation has their national interests, there is no problem with that, the problem begins when for the sake geopolitic control, even non-directed competition, one nation (or more working in click) makes moves to undermine, not the short, immediate and visible gains of a policy (that would undoubtedly expose their intentions) but to, in a concerted and carefully planed way undermines the works in regards to future long range gains that a properly working EU would bring to its citizens and the world.

One particular area in security (Army and Intelligence) can serve to clearly show the interests at work, and to denote the benefits that would be gained by a greater integration. Another it the failing of the EURO...

reply to post by ColCurious

The "austerity packages" were negotiated between the Troika, combining EU, ECB and IMF (the centralist scum IMO), and the Greek parliament.

A similar trick was pulled on Argentina but in that case US had a bigger portion of the pie. My friends in Argentina at the time told me that Stallone and Bush were buying huge tracks of land there. It was a good time to have the dollar and buy Argentina on the cheap. If you have the money then distressed property in Greece must be a good place to buy with investment for the long run in mind.

Originally posted by StraightBananas
reply to post by ColCurious

 

We can agree the defense budget is a problem, we can agree the whole tax structure and corruption is a big problem.

Yet nothing is done about the defense budget. Again, cutting the defense budget 3 or 4 years ago would have earned them back their 2011 deficit.

You can't deny this.

I don't.
I honestly don't really care about Greece's defense, but Greece's 2011 deficit wouldn't be enough anyways.

I've made my point and the rest is up to opinion I guess.
I have to leave now. Someone has to get up early tomorrow and earn some taxes for more Greek arms deals and stuff.

reply to post by ColCurious

Berlin naturally wanted to see results, but never directly dictated how exactly Greece had to manage her budget.

I provided a link, it made it perfectly clear, that 'Berlin' was doing exactly that.

In addition, Berlin has obviously applied pressure on Athens to combine a referendum on remaining in the Euro zone with the elections. This tactic is aimed at weakening the opponents of austerity. According to reports, German Finance Minster Schäuble made this proposal already last Monday to his Greek counterpart at the meeting of the Euro finance ministers. This proposal is obviously supported by the Chairman of the CDU/CSU parliamentary group in the Bundestag, Volker Kauder.
A Greek government spokesman confirmed that Chancellor Angela Merkel urged Greek President Karolos Papoulias last Friday to implement the German plan for a Greek referendum, whereas in November 2011, Berlin briskly rebuffed the Prime Minister at the time, Giorgos Papandreou, when he publicly announced his proposal to hold a referendum.
This led to his demise.
Berlin's open interference is met with outrage in Athens. The Greek population has a "right to respect," the chairperson of the conservative Nea Dimokratia, Antonis Samaras, was quoted as saying. And the chairman of the opposition party Syriza, Alexis Tsipras, declared that Berlin is acting as if Greece "is a protectorate."

Remember the part i emphasised?

reply to post by Panic2k11


I think I know what you are thinking but my reading of history leads me to a simple conclusion, "When convenient they will throw you under the bus." There have been plenty of pacts, treaties etc. The result is the same. I know, we should not stop trying, but I just don't think that joining a new club is the answer. What is the answer? I will be honest and say I don't know as I suspect it will need to be something that is out of the present day paradigm of thinking. It will be, I'd say, on another plane of thinking.

Pretty airy I know

reply to post by ColCurious

I don't. I honestly don't really care about Greece's defense, but Greece's 2011 deficit wouldn't be enough anyways.

Wth do you mean.

What you care about is not relevant in this discussion.

What do you mean the 2011 deficit wouldn't be enough, for what?

If they didn't have a deficit there would not be a direct problem, and they would not need bailouts.

Again, if they would have cut their defense spending to normal levels, a few years ago, they would've saved the amount of money they now have as deficit.

You really seem to have a problem with registering the information that is presented to you.