Drone Carnage, Children Slaughtered: The Moral Question Obama Can’t Evade

reply to post by gravitor


I've never had anyone say that about my writing. =]
Also, I don't know anything about giving lessons; but from what I can tell your writing is better than a lot of people who post online.

Dyslexia or not. Many of us have something that rules our life in some form or another. Although I'm usually fluent when my thoughts formulate as text, I also have a speech impediment (stutter) that takes something away from my verbal abilities. A good portion of the the time it drives me crazy.

If you like you can send me a PM.

Originally posted by Raelsatu
This whole situation is a complete mess. Apart from the dehumanization factor & disconnection of having drones slaughter people from whichever part of the globe; at an aerial advantage nonetheless.

The tactics of the US is to create a war on terror, first by: inciting violence & uprisings in Middle Eastern nations via unethical sanctions, coups -- justified to the masses by asserting propaganda & exaggeration. Iraqi sanctions through the 90s killed an estimated 500,000 CHILDREN alone. Then when people from these nations retaliate or form groups against foreign intrusion, the American gov. says there are "terrorist that hate our freedom". Proceed to enact a false flag or aid the "enemy" in taking an aggressive action against us.

The military industrial complex is the solution to the problem. After creating the problem themselves & demonizing those they committed atrocities against, they then spark a war/invasion of the respective nation, spreading even more death and suffering -- creating even MORE 'terrorist'. And what's the solution to more terrorist? Drones perhaps! Kill thousands of innocent civilians and strike fear into all inhabitants? Who cares. We need to kill those terrorist that WE instigated in the first place. Brilliant.

Truth is the American/UN power structure is a disgusting abomination that revels in destroying nations & mass-murdering; all for profit. All on their sadistic, psychopathic whims.

IF the tactics of the US and FREE WORLD is to create a war on terror, then can one equally claim you are here propagandazing ANTI-AMERICAN, ANTI-WEST and ANTI - FREE WORLD sentitments?

After all it seems to you and YOUR KIND that people like you don't need to have ANY facts or evidences to substantiate your lies freely.

I plead that you stay off the brainwashing, clear your mind, and do REALLY research your facts, and NOT just BLINDLY toe the haters propaganda. Hate is easy, but when it rebounds back on you, who are you gonna blame then?

Some folks say no to war vehemently and would rampage and even kill the policemen at demostrations. But when war arrives, what will you do? When radical militant terrorists, whom cares not about the rules of warfare engagement, slay you or those you care about in surburbia, what then, -regret? Too late for that.

Those mentioned happened. Anti war americans of the 40s saw their loved ones and the flag toasted by the Imperial Japan Army in a surprise attack ( and cut the BS about foreknowledge by Roosevelt). May they live happy and sleep in peace.

Protestors seeking to help their terrorist buddies were equally slained by them. Happened in real life. The famous cricketeer in Pakistan, publically supported the Taliban and scream at US and Free World's attempts to protect innocent lives around the world, including Pakistan, was himself made a target by the inhuman beastly taliban terrorists. There is no reasoning with animals.

But then, judging by your post, it seems your hate and unfounded criticism of the West had clouded your rational judgement, something very obvious and similiar with those many self repeating and terrorist friendly parrots spewing hatred.

seekeroftruth101,
Are You an American?
If so, would You class Yourself as a typical such?
Do You support the murder of innocent women and children by utilising remotely guided drones??
gravitor

reply to post by gravitor


gravitor, sufferer of dyslexia as you admitted in a previous post and suffered ridicule from others, my pity and condolences, Are You a humanslayer supporter and hater of mankind?
If so, would You class Yourself as a typical such?
Do You support the murder of innocent women and children by utilising every and any often insidious means, without any care for rules of engagement in warfare as well as just plain pure hatred to destroy mankind??

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101
reply to post by gravitor

 

gravitor, sufferer of dyslexia as you admitted in a previous post and suffered ridicule from others, my pity and condolences, Are You a humanslayer supporter and hater of mankind?
If so, would You class Yourself as a typical such?
Do You support the murder of innocent women and children by utilising every and any often insidious means, without any care for rules of engagement in warfare as well as just plain pure hatred to destroy mankind??

Simple question to You .
Are You American??
gravitor

reply to post by gravitor


Simple and more important and relevant to this thread. Are you a humanslayer supporter?

I vehemently disagree with the drone policy. I believe the US should focus on defense by actually... defending, instead of instigating attacks against individuals. Surveillance should still be allowed and a top priority, but the US shouldn't rain fire down upon people for planning attacks that could be stopped without civilian casualties by both sides. If an unlawful combatant is found, keep an eye on him. If he looks like he's about to start trouble, send in special forces to apprehend him via a surgical strike. It was done before drones, and it's still done now. There are a whole different set of moral implications that come along with targeted abductions/killings conducted on foreign soil, but at least the civilian deaths would be minimal, or even nonexistent.

My $.02.

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101
reply to post by gravitor

 

Simple and more important and relevant to this thread. Are you a humanslayer supporter?

Not only are You a LIAR.
You are clearly a troll trying to disrupt this thread.
Your offensive lies are pathetic.
You also cannot answer a simple question.
Are You American?
This thread is about AMERICANS utilising remote drones to murder human beings in Pakistan.
This has all been highly escalated by another liar called Obama.
Do You condone and approve of such.
Remember this thread is based on this subject ......troll.
gravitorO

reply to post by gravitor


Finally revealing yourself?
Name calling just to get your point across and ignore my legitimate and fair question to you?

My purpose was to identify and reveal you for what you truly stands for.
And by your continued ignore of my simple but loaded question only and fully proves your one sided warped mind over the issue of this thread.

As mentioned, you have my fullest pity and condolences on your mental and physical condition, but it does have a limit, more so when your mind is more attuned to supporting militants whom are free to slaughter innocent men, women and children, and yet heap accusations upon those whom were only trying with every means to end such slaughters, even offering talks when those beasts you support had long refused mankind.

Good day to you, and may your condition get better one day.

Originally posted by techwolf
I vehemently disagree with the drone policy. I believe the US should focus on defense by actually... defending, instead of instigating attacks against individuals. Surveillance should still be allowed and a top priority, but the US shouldn't rain fire down upon people for planning attacks that could be stopped without civilian casualties by both sides. If an unlawful combatant is found, keep an eye on him. If he looks like he's about to start trouble, send in special forces to apprehend him via a surgical strike. It was done before drones, and it's still done now. There are a whole different set of moral implications that come along with targeted abductions/killings conducted on foreign soil, but at least the civilian deaths would be minimal, or even nonexistent.

My $.02.

I respect your opinion, but cannot agree to your solution.

It has been done before and surgical strikes still does not only harm to collateral damage, it harms even the courageous teams battling those savage beasts and their supporters.

Drones, as I had mentioned before, is still not the best solution. One cannot fight an idealogy with physical objects, but by truth and better idealogies.

Such methods will take time, but is already in progress as many more responsible religious leaders had seen the misuse of religion can wrought upon humanity, to unmask whom those savages are - militants whom have nothing and follows no religion in their hearts but only selfish personal grandiose delusions at the expense of others..

Drones,meanwhile are the only better means right now to hit on TARGETTED groups and supporters whom are hell bent on plotting the death to innocents around our world, so that many more lives be saved.

First thing, your pseudonym is ironically named after a tv fantasy series (The Seeker of Truth). That translates over into your post which is pretty much the MIC-bolstering fantasy mindset that plagues many humans.

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101

IF the tactics of the US and FREE WORLD is to create a war on terror, then can one equally claim you are here propagandazing ANTI-AMERICAN, ANTI-WEST and ANTI - FREE WORLD sentitments?

Equally claim what? I'm stating known facts that any person with access to information could see for what it is. Just because a country claims to be the "free world", that does not make their policies -- both foreign and domestic -- ethical or viable. I stated the fact that the sanctions on Iraq during the 90's resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians. That was only the prelude to a brash and utterly immoral invasion on Iraq; which cost countless innocent lives, both foreign and American. Compounded another trillion+ dollars in debt, while at the same time enabling huge profits for the war profiteers. Which in turn spawned the likes of much anti-American legislation & domestic policy (Patriot Act, NDAA, etc).

That entire war, as well as numerous wars from this past century were based on propaganda, lies & false pretenses. Propaganda is what gets us into these debacles, strips freedom and ruins lives. Yet you have the nerve to tell me I'm propagandizing and being anti-American/free world? That's the same illogical attack that neo-cons use when they defend their disgusting support of war & pointless suffering.

After all it seems to you and YOUR KIND that people like you don't need to have ANY facts or evidences to substantiate your lies freely.

I plead that you stay off the brainwashing, clear your mind, and do REALLY research your facts, and NOT just BLINDLY toe the haters propaganda. Hate is easy, but when it rebounds back on you, who are you gonna blame
then?

But then, judging by your post, it seems your hate and unfounded criticism of the West had clouded your rational judgement, something very obvious and similiar with those many self repeating and terrorist friendly parrots spewing hatred.

Reading your post is just embarrassing. After all the facts have been presented you can still spout this nonsense? I'm the one who hates when all I want is peace? I'm the one who hates when all I want is the truth, unity, tolerance & coming together of humans of all different walks of life? I'm a hater because I refuse to accept propaganda, genocide, mass-murder, war profiteering, pretext for the stripping of freedom -- this fake & corrupt global pathocracy?

You proceed to incoherently ramble about why Middle Easterners are all um-tamable animals, but all it's really doing is exposing YOU for a phony. You're making the same generalizations that any war-mongerer makes when they wish to dehumanize a different set of people, to justify to the masses with. You think that our invasions of Middle Eastern nations, that resulted in 1 million + deaths, is justified because of the [potential] actions of a tiny subset of violent foreigners? You really are either blind or well... there's no words.

If you can provide any facts that are contrary to my post, please GO AHEAD.

"Double tap" is what mobsters do when they put somebody down. One bullet in the heart, one in the head.

That way they stay down. It's practically standard operating procedure among hit men.

Then there's a different, nastier kind of "double tap". Suppose you live in some hill village in western Pakistan, and one of the families nearby has a boy fighting with the Taliban who has come home for a visit, bringing several friends with him.

It's worrisome, because you are always hearing American drones overhead - and sure enough, one day there is a terrifying explosion and his house is destroyed.

What do you do now?

There was a whole extended family living in that house: children, old folks, a cousin or two. Some of them are probably still alive under the rubble, perhaps badly injured. Do you rush over and help to dig them out?

Better not. The Predator or Reaper drone (lovely names) will wait until all the neighbours have gathered round, and then launch a second Hellfire missile on to the site. Double tap.

Stanford University's International Human Rights and Conflict Resolution Clinic and New York University School of Law's Global Justice Clinic have just released a report, based on nine months of research and 130 interviews, which concludes that barely 2% of the victims of US drone strikes were known militants. That's not to say that everybody else killed or injured was an innocent civilian, but these are definitely not "surgical" strikes.

The best estimate of the number of people killed in US drone strikes over the past eight years comes from the Bureau of Investigative Journalism: between 2532 and 3251 dead in Pakistan, Yemen and Somalia. Of those, between 475 and 879 deaths were civilian non-combatants who just happened to be nearby when the Hellfire hit - often because they were trying to rescue survivors from an earlier strike.

Washington does not formally admit that the Central Intelligence Agency is running a remote-control assassination programme at all, because it is legally a very doubtful area. At the same time, it strives to reassure the American public that there is almost no "collateral damage": that practically all the victims are "bad guys".

Including the 175 children who, according to the Bureau's numbers, have been killed in the strikes.

Let's be honest here: children always get killed in air strikes. When you explode 10kg of high explosives on a single target (the standard Hellfire load), there can be nothing surgical about it. The really questionable aspects of the CIA's drone programme lie elsewhere.

First, is it legal to make air attacks in a country that you are not at war with?

Second, can you distinguish sufficiently between "militants" and civilians living in the same area?

And, above all, why are you making double-tap attacks?

It's the double-tap attacks that are truly shameful. Do the controllers really think that the people rushing to rescue the survivors of a first strike are all "militants" too?

Or are they just trying to deter people from helping those who were wounded in the first strike?

That is certainly the effect of the policy: villagers now often leave the injured survivors of an attack in agony for hours before going to help them, for fear of becoming victims, too.

There's no point in telling the military and their masters that this tactic is counter-productive, generating more new "militants" than it kills. The bureaucratic machine doesn't respond to such subtle arguments.

There's probably no point in talking about the moral problem of killing innocent people either. But the fact that about 50 countries now have drones should inspire reflection on this unwritten change in the rules of engagement.

The latest proud possessor of these weapons is Iran, which has just unveiled a new drone with a range of 2000km, capable of flying over most of the Middle East.

If it is really copied from the US drone that Iran captured last year, then it has major air-to-ground capabilities. So what if it starts using those capabilities over, say, Syria, against the rebels that the Syrian government calls "terrorists"?

The US could not really complain (though no doubt it would). What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

Originally posted by gravitor
Navydoc,
You think wrong.
There were millions of civilian casualties in the second world war.
All wars are created by total lunatics who desire profit.
This thread is not about hitler or anything such.
It is about the barbaric murder of people who are termed as terrorists , you say by intelligence and surveillance, I say that is hogwash.
All of this is to inflame the region 5to justify further lunatic wars.
America now has massive private armies who make profit from war.
Your inhuman munitions factories make a profit from war.
And there is no enemy.
The so called terrorists are simply defending their tribal lands from the aggressor called AMERICA.
America is the new nazi state.
You should concern Yourself with the present, and not try to distract this thread with the past.
gravitor

In other words, you have no logical or moral consistency to your position. If America acts on something, it is because it is evil because to you everything America does is evil. Got it. That's cool. Just don't pretend to having anobjective discussion.

Originally posted by Raelsatu
First thing, your pseudonym is ironically named after a tv fantasy series (The Seeker of Truth). That translates over into your post which is pretty much the MIC-bolstering fantasy mindset that plagues many humans.

Equally claim what? I'm stating known facts that any person with access to information could see for what it is. Just because a country claims to be the "free world", that does not make their policies -- both foreign and domestic -- ethical or viable. I stated the fact that the sanctions on Iraq during the 90's resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians. That was only the prelude to a brash and utterly immoral invasion on Iraq; which cost countless innocent lives, both foreign and American. Compounded another trillion+ dollars in debt, while at the same time enabling huge profits for the war profiteers. Which in turn spawned the likes of much anti-American legislation & domestic policy (Patriot Act, NDAA, etc).

That entire war, as well as numerous wars from this past century were based on propaganda, lies & false pretenses. Propaganda is what gets us into these debacles, strips freedom and ruins lives. Yet you have the nerve to tell me I'm propagandizing and being anti-American/free world? That's the same illogical attack that neo-cons use when they defend their disgusting support of war & pointless suffering.

Reading your post is just embarrassing. After all the facts have been presented you can still spout this nonsense? I'm the one who hates when all I want is peace? I'm the one who hates when all I want is the truth, unity, tolerance & coming together of humans of all different walks of life? I'm a hater because I refuse to accept propaganda, genocide, mass-murder, war profiteering, pretext for the stripping of freedom -- this fake & corrupt global pathocracy?

Resorting to name calling, smearing, just because I disagreed with you and yet you have the CHEEK to claim to want truth, TOLERANCE, COMING TOGETHER OF HUMANS,etc and more bile from you?

Are you for real?

Now, to go to your half truths and generalisation which amounts to another utter pure anti-american rant to win converts to your despicable cause, no different from the many other haters here:-

1. Why were there sanctions in Iraq in first place? Do you think by not refering to them, you can hope that no one else will know, and toe your half truths and lies?

This is ATS. aint gonna happen.

Sanctions happened because that tyrant Sadam refused to have his supposed WMD nuke stations inspected, and worse, threaten the free world with more lies about having nukes and to use them. Of course the world got frightened with this unstable dictator, and resulted in sanctions as the way to get him behave reponsibly to the world.

He refused, and subjected his own citizens whom he is fully accountable and responsible for, to suffering to assuage his own pride and ego. Yet you blame USA sanctions for hurting Iraqis?


2. Immoral invasion of Iraq? Which is more immoral - Tyrant Sadam decades long torturing of his citizens, or USA's invasion being welcomed into the country by them? Sadam hinting that he had WMD and threatening the will to use them on the free world, or USA's invasion on being unable to find the WMDs presumably hidden away in Syria?


3. Enterprises need no wars to profits. Profits come from every and any enterprise. Even Commies welcome profits. Wars happen, and eventually, services offered have to be paid, as in every enterprise. Profits alone is not the cause of wars. Only idiots causes wars. Blame the idiots - in the case of Iraq, Sadam, a war which could have been avoided, not enterprises.


4. Wars causes the loss of lives, of both combatants and innocents. Thus wars should be avoided where possible. But where not possible and all means of diplomacy ends, a nation has the right to defend themselves, with blood against threats. In order to secure Peace, one must be prepared for war. Wake up!


5. I have no need to dehumanize anyone, least of the terrorists you seemed to support. They dehumanized themselves with the atrocities that they had heaped upon innocent mankind. You may be blind, but many others aren't

So do cut your pathetic whinnings, lies,rants,and blame games. People like you are part of the problem, hindering what needs to be done to stop the carnage by those militant radical groups hell bent on slaughtering humankind freely

reply to post by SeekerofTruth101


Well said! In addition to what you posted, might I remind everyone that the second war against Sadaam was perfectly legal and moral by all international laws of war for this very simple reason: Iraq signed a cease fire agreement. Iraq violated said cease fire agreement, repeatedly, from violations of the no fly zone to attacking the Kurds again to rearming to blocking UN inspections. When one violates a peace treaty, it is perfectly reasonable and lawful to resume hostilities.

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101
I respect your opinion, but cannot agree to your solution.

It has been done before and surgical strikes still does not only harm to collateral damage, it harms even the courageous teams battling those savage beasts and their supporters.

Drones, as I had mentioned before, is still not the best solution. One cannot fight an idealogy with physical objects, but by truth and better idealogies.

Such methods will take time, but is already in progress as many more responsible religious leaders had seen the misuse of religion can wrought upon humanity, to unmask whom those savages are - militants whom have nothing and follows no religion in their hearts but only selfish personal grandiose delusions at the expense of others..

Drones,meanwhile are the only better means right now to hit on TARGETTED groups and supporters whom are hell bent on plotting the death to innocents around our world, so that many more lives be saved.

But isn't there an obvious risk of blowback when so many innocent lives are lost? If my significant other, brother, or sister, or mother, or father were an innocent person struck down in a drone strike, I would most certainly harbor negative sentiment towards the US. I would also probably be more apt to do something against the US, and if I was later killed, someone that cared about me would feel the same way and on and on and on. Regardless of that, there are some truly heinous protocols-- like the "double tap" another poster mentioned-- that should be looked at, even if we do consider the use of drones OK. Drone strikes at funerals, the policy of deeming all males of military ages "combatants" to keep the count of civilian deaths down, and restricted access to the bodies of those innocents killed for proper burial in some cases, these are all enormous issues.

As for the efficacy of operations conducted by special forces, I think it's very reasonable to put soldiers in harm's way if it means limiting the harm that comes to civilians. Would it be sad when a SEAL's wife or children or parents or siblings learn their family member isn't coming back? Yes, but they signed up for it. The innocent people (especially children) surrounding the unlawful combatant did not.

I believe the US should focus on defense

"The only real defense is active defense." Mao Zedong. This sentiment was also echoed by Machiavelli and Sun Tzu. I'll trust in their military wisdom and experience than in your opinions.

Originally posted by techwolf
But isn't there an obvious risk of blowback when so many innocent lives are lost? If my significant other, brother, or sister, or mother, or father were an innocent person struck down in a drone strike, I would most certainly harbor negative sentiment towards the US. I would also probably be more apt to do something against the US, and if I was later killed, someone that cared about me would feel the same way and on and on and on.

As for the efficacy of operations conducted by special forces, I think it's very reasonable to put soldiers in harm's way

I've heard many times the lame and pathetic excuses of drone strikes creates more militants.

Pathetic because the one spouting it had NOT acknowledged why there was drone strikes in the first place.

Was those drones for fun? Were there there to annihilate innocents intentionally the way those barbaric militants had slaughtered thousands of innocent men, women and children around the world?

Who hangs around those beasts? None other than their supporters. Are these supporters innocent? No they are not, for without their support, those animals would not have the strength nor capability to continue on.

There will be no denial of collateral damage. Warnings had long been sent out for the past 10 years about this War on Terrorism, and for civilians NOT to associate or hang around them. They had been forewarned. If they chosed to remain close to those militants, then it had only been a choice they freely made.

If they want revenge against Mankind for destroying humanslayers, then they best be aware that mankind will show no mercy to them, the way those barbaric terrorists had shown no mercy to us and our loved ones. There are 7 billion of us, and may they consider carefully if they chosed to side with the beasts and know whom they are fighting against.

We have sympathies for such people turned animals, but then do they have sympathy for us and our loved ones when innocent mankind is bombed to bits by them, as it had been for decades?

But still, the best way lays in educating those people, with truth and not lies, on why those drones HAD TO occur. No human will be allowed to live if the terrorists are allowed to continue with their indiscriminate slaying of innocent humankind. It will end, one way or another. Posterity is on the side of humankind.


2. As to using soldiers, I believe that you may not had studied military history. Soldiers are your most precious assets. If there are other options avaliable that can minimise the risks to soldiers, it should be taken. You only use your most precious assets in battles you are sure of and able to win, and never never to sacrifice them.

WIth due respects, I hope you are not an officer in the military, because with your kind of mentality, brave soldiers will only be horrendously used and sacrificed needlessly.

Originally posted by NavyDoc

Originally posted by gravitor
Navydoc,
You think wrong.
There were millions of civilian casualties in the second world war.
All wars are created by total lunatics who desire profit.
This thread is not about hitler or anything such.
It is about the barbaric murder of people who are termed as terrorists , you say by intelligence and surveillance, I say that is hogwash.
All of this is to inflame the region 5to justify further lunatic wars.
America now has massive private armies who make profit from war.
Your inhuman munitions factories make a profit from war.
And there is no enemy.
The so called terrorists are simply defending their tribal lands from the aggressor called AMERICA.
America is the new nazi state.
You should concern Yourself with the present, and not try to distract this thread with the past.
gravitor

In other words, you have no logical or moral consistency to your position. If America acts on something, it is because it is evil because to you everything America does is evil. Got it. That's cool. Just don't pretend to having anobjective discussion.

I in no way consider that "all America does is evil"
Do not post wrong words ascribed to My name.
You are the one wearing rose coloured glasses , that look upon all America does as been righteous and honourable.
I deplore the MURDER of innocents by these drones....don't You?
gravitor

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101
reply to post by gravitor

 

gravitor, sufferer of dyslexia as you admitted in a previous post and suffered ridicule from others, my pity and condolences, Are You a humanslayer supporter and hater of mankind?
If so, would You class Yourself as a typical such?
Do You support the murder of innocent women and children by utilising every and any often insidious means, without any care for rules of engagement in warfare as well as just plain pure hatred to destroy mankind??

Are You American?
Are You describing what Americans are doing in their invented wars, and are now escalating such with unmanned drones killing without regard for who is there?
gravitor