A (Hypothetical) Question For Christians Regarding GLBT

Hi,

I'm posing this hypothetical question to Christians only because it will not be accepted by non Christians or non theists anyway so why bother? And if you are a Christian, you should know what's taught in the Bible regarding this subject without having me throw a million different verses at you. Okay, so let me get into it about the GLBT. As we all know, in America, there are some within our faith on the political right who are firmly opposed to any sexual orientation that is not heterosexual getting married because marriage is between a man and a woman for the replenishment of the earth PERIOD. They cherry pick scriptures in the Bible that affirm this. They will use them to state that members of the GLBT cannot be born that way while ironically and simultaneously embracing sciences explanation of their own sin of gluttony by asserting that being fat is a disease that they were born with so leave them alone.(a different topic that I will address another time)

HOWEVER

My question is this and it comes from a scriptural perspective. Are those of the faith on the political right absolutely certain that they are NOT born that way in THIS day and age? Gays, lesbians, transgender and bi-sexual ? I think they are born that way. Now, in the interest of full disclosure , allow me to explain why I am asking and why I believe they are. I am a heterosexual. I am a (branch-less) Christian. I am an American. I am also a progressive and because of this ideological political leaning, I am categorized by society as being on the political Left. I don't like to mix politics and religion like this. I usually hold to the creed of rendering unto God (Jesus) that which belongs to him and to Caesar (US Constitution) that which belongs to it, still, because of the rights merging of politics and religion, I find myself forced to address certain political topics from a religious perspective.

It is the malicious and degrading personal attacks on my faith in Christ by other Christians on the political Right over my "non hostility" towards the GLBT community, that has forced me to express my thoughts and question their position. Did we read and understand the same scripture ? Is it not possible that these human beings are in fact born that way and doesn't scripture itself suggests that it is possible ? In Genesis, it talks about the Sons of God marrying the daughters of men and what happened to their offspring as a result. They were genetically changed. They were different from the creation no ? And did they not read about the mixing of different species ? If we believe this , why is it so strange to believe that GLBTs are actually born that way ?

When we read the Book of Enoch and the Book of Jasher (Not in the Bible, but discovered with the same texts found in the Bible) we are able to fill in many additional holes from Genesis and discover that the DNA of humans , animals and plants have been toyed with since the very beginning producing offspring very different from the original creation. We believe that don't we ? So when we read that when Jesus told his disciples that when he returns , the world will be just as it was in the days of...NOAH, don't you think he meant what he said ? I mean, don't you think he knew about Monsanto before we did ? And don't you think he knew about other things that will be present in this day that we don't even know about yet ?

Consider your food. It's most likely genetically altered. Everything you eat is genetically altered even some of the so called "organic" foods are genetically altered. Animal product is genetically altered and so is animal milk. We know this. We see it. We accept it as truth. But you don't think humans have been genetically altered ? I'm not saying that scientist are turning people GLBT. No. Please, don't go there. I'm saying that it is not against biblical understanding to concede that not only do we have scientific proof that a human being can be born on this planet with both genitalia, it's not a stretch that another human being can in fact be born with a sexual desire towards another human being that has the same sexual orientation as they appear to have. It's not just science. It's not just biologically factual. It's a biblical possibility as well.

So, why should I express hatred towards other human beings with souls that Jesus died for just like me , simply because they are born that way through no fault of their own? Consider this. If you oppose GLBT marriages simply because they cannot reproduce, don't you have to have the same position towards heterosexual couples who cannot or will not reproduce. Yes, it's written in the Bible that God created man and woman to replenish the earth, but shall I forbid a man who is sterile from getting married to the woman he loves because he cannot produce offspring ? Shall I myself, whose diseased and painful ovaries had to be removed because they were threatening other vital organs in my body, shall I be forbidden to marry the man of my dreams because I cannot give him a child ? Huh ?

I should stop before this gets moved to the rant section.

Just read this. I have to think this one over some. And I have to get going to my 2nd job, gotta pay the bills.

I will try to weigh in later. But maybe a couple of days. I have a possible answer that I think you will like, or at least understand, even if you disagree.

For a start, I don't believe that, and neither do I think less of anyone because of their sexuality. Essentially you're talking about people using scripture (or their interpretation of it) to back up their own personal opinions on sexuality. The Bible doesn't explicitly mention homosexuality, but instead some rather oblique statements that could be interpreted a variety of ways.

That, and the fact Jesus only (seemingly) mentions it in passing, when queried.

Oh, go on then. It's evil.

i dont think gays are born that way, it cant be genetic as it would eliminate itself, or maybe the one who doesnt agree finds a gay whose grandfather was also gay
however, ya a good chance that the hormones in milk and food are predisposing more babies towards a confused sexual orientation coupled with "no shame" in being gay resulting in more leaning towards it.
And in my opinion scriptures dont tell to hate the homosexuals.
Rather it says not to promote it with the simple wisdom that it would be counterproductive to human race.
So it does remain a sin and it should remain so, but just to the self. Nobody should judge what others do.
But the same way, nobody should bend over backwards to be politically correct and go out of his/her ways to prove that they are not homophobic.

reply to post by skepticconwatcher


Your question has a much better answer with the right premise. We are all born this way (Sinners). It doesn't matter if one person's weakness to overcome is sexual, chemical or other. The premise you are working under is based on condemnation of the sinner. Instead, the sin is what is at issue. We are all born into some sin that must be overcome. Each person has a proclivity toward something in life that engages natural laws governed by Cohesion, Adhesion, Attraction and Repulsion.

My answer is to simply state it as it is. God set nature in order. Man has the free will to fight the law of order from chaos if he wishes, but the law will require the debt. Any sinner willing to become a thief from God will pay the debt. If you smoke, you get cancer. Taking reward that is not earned or meant to be taken causes suffering. On the other hand, suffering for good brings reward. If you deny the cigarettes, cancer is less likely. If you suffer exercise and proper diet, health benefits expand. Suffering to follow the law of returns forward requires that we pay the price for what is earned. A thief takes what is not earned and suffers in the end. Either way, suffering is required. If a person wants reward for a life lived, then suffer for what is good and bear the cross and burden to overcome in life. For one person it is eating. For others, it is sexual or chemical. We all have something to overcome that we are born with.

As a Christian, don't expect me to call good evil or evil good. God sets that standard in his word. I won't hate the sinner but I will hate the sin. None of us are free from the burden of desire. We are all born this way. We can also all overcome.

Come to me all of you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. Matthew 11:28-30

Christ came for the sick and dying, not the healthy.

reply to post by skepticconwatcher

Well, you asked for it.:

Are those of the faith on the political right absolutely certain that they are NOT born that way in THIS day and age?

I don't know, and I base no opinions on it. There is some evidence that environment plays a role in it, but how much, I don't know. From a Christian standpoint, at least as I see it, I don't think the answer matters a lot.

So, why should I express hatred towards other human beings with souls that Jesus died for just like me , simply because they are born that way through no fault of their own?

I don't. Christianity, as I know it, doesn't hate them either.

Consider this. If you oppose GLBT marriages simply because they cannot reproduce, don't you have to have the same position towards heterosexual couples who cannot or will not reproduce.

Oh, now you want to get into gay marriage arguments? I thought we were talking about the Christian position, not what the State should do about marriages.

Shall I be forbidden to marry the man of my dreams because I cannot give him a child ?

I've been in too many threads were the position is "Leave religion out of this." Who is forbidding you to marry? The State? Then change it through political processes.

I believe you already know the Christian position. You'll have a hard time changing that, though.

reply to post by EnochWasRight

Originally posted by EnochWasRight
reply to post by skepticconwatcher

 

If you smoke, you get cancer. Taking reward that is not earned or meant to be taken causes suffering. On the other hand, suffering for good brings reward. If you deny the cigarettes, cancer is less likely. If you suffer exercise and proper diet, health benefits expand. Suffering to follow the law of returns forward requires that we pay the price for what is earned. A thief takes what is not earned and suffers in the end. Either way, suffering is required. If a person wants reward for a life lived, then suffer for what is good and bear the cross and burden to overcome in life. For one person it is eating. For others, it is sexual or chemical. We all have something to overcome that we are born with.

So what? You may do good and still die young, and smoke and still not manage to get cancer. Even if you do "suffer for the right thing" (whatever bible say is right), you are still just gonna die in the end - then what? You have "respect" from people living that happen to believe in the "bible" like you? Blah.

Originally posted by EnochWasRight
reply to post by skepticconwatcher

 

As a Christian, don't expect me to call good evil or evil good. God sets that standard in his word.

So are you saying that Christians do not lie?

Originally posted by EnochWasRight
reply to post by skepticconwatcher

 

I won't hate the sinner but I will hate the sin.

IMPOSSIBLE, if you have sin, then you MUST hate sinners. If you have murder then you MUST hate murders because they are the ones that even make the act exist...


Homosexuality is good, Homophobia is bad.

People who try to control others are so EVIL. You believe that God gave others free-will and that HE'LL judge them, right? So why are YOU pretending to be the judge? How dare you deny people free-will that you claim your GOD gave them.

Free-will is more important than anything, LOVE is a form of control. It is conformity... Free-will is individual expression and allowing people to be - and appreciating Truth and Honesty...

reply to post by EnochWasRight

If you smoke, you get cancer.

May I ask what medical science that statement is based on? I myself smoked cigarettes and cigars for 38 years, at times 4 packs a day, Camels, like my Grandpa smoked. I am 58 now, and I don't have any signs of cancer, nor do I have tar on my lungs. On the other hand, here in our town a few years ago a child of 5 died of lung cancer. The child's parents never smoked at all.

reply to post by skepticconwatcher


Hehehehe
Good for you skepticconwatcher

I wrote a paper that was pro gay marriage back in 8th grade for a time capsule that were to be opened 4 years later.

During that 4 year span, I was kinda of indoctrinated to not think that homosexuals could not get married, and after opening the time capsule and reading my 8th grade essay, I finally found some clarity: I was wiser when I was younger, which was a big smack to the face because at that time I thought I was getting wiser due to my increased knowledge of scripture, but in reality, I was trading wisdom for knowledge.

ANYWAYS,
I was reading this quote from a famous reverend in my communications book for school, paraphrased: "We used religion to justify slavery, segregation, and war throughout history. Let's not make the same mistakes this time and use religion to justify the prohibition of same sexual marriage."

And if you are a Christian, you should know what's taught in the Bible regarding this subject without having me throw a million different verses at you.

This quote brings me out to my subject: State controlled religion.
Religion has always been one of the four/five variables for the elite of society to have control over in order to control the public. State controlled religion has been used to justify the evils of mankind, ie Inquisition, Crusades, Manifest Destiny, the list really does go on

When learning about the bible, the best Teacher is the Source of those scriptures, not the state. The inhabitants of Israel made the mistake of following their physical leaders and not God. But the goats can't differentiate between the state and Father, so they follow the state, and a lot will be disappointed just as the pharisees were disappointed when the Messiah was not the physical messiah to help overthrow Roman rule, as they were hoping for.

The creator God/YHVH/Jesus designed and created us in a certain way to function in a certain way. The Laws He gave to Moses can be regarded as an owner's manual, God being the owner, and we being responsible for some of the upkeep and maintenance. God expects us to live in a certain manner, to stay healthy, and not indulge ourselves in activities which grossly violate the design parameters. "GLBT" activities fall in this category, a moral area which God calls abomination - a violation of design and performance parameters. You can justify it to yourself all you want, but God did not create you and me to do those things.

Hello

Okay I don't think the bible should be used to persecute anyone. We are told however that all scripture is good for reprove and correction etc. However this should always be done with the love Jesus showed.

If people choose to ignore this then then we can only pray. As we are told in the bible we should not continually throw pearls before swine. Basically continue to give the word of God to those that will not heed it.

However. We should love thy neighbour in everything that we do. If we persecute anyone how does that lead them to Christ and in what light is he going to be perceived?

Are people born this way? Wow difficult. I do not think the original creation had this in mind. However I could digress into possession and fallen angel offspring etc. I bring to mind that God told Adam and eve to replenish the earth and that sex is a result of eve's sin anyway.

Regards

reply to post by arpgme

This may seem like a small thing to you, but to me it's essential.

IMPOSSIBLE, if you have sin, then you MUST hate sinners. If you have murder then you MUST hate murders because they are the ones that even make the act exist...

I can't tell you how strongly I disagree with this. That is an idea that can easily damn the believer.

First, remember the Pope being shot years ago? He publicly forgave the shooter and spent time with him in his cell. You don't do that towards someone you hate. People are forgiving each other every second of the day, that's because they care about the sinner.

Second, If we are to hate sinners, "Which of you is without sin?" Following the advice you gave means everyone in the world must hate everyone else in the world. It doesn't work like that.

Jesus came to save sinners, we are to turn the other cheek, Peter denied Jesus three times.

"Loving the sinner, hating the sin" is an essential part of a sane life.

reply to post by drevill


amen. the baseline message of Christ is love. a person's journey and destination are their choice. live the example set by Christ, who showed compassion to the Samaritans and of God who allowed the rabble to follow along with Moses.
As far as the abomination thing, i found 52 named abominations in the kj version. you would be surprised what is there. if truly seeking knoeledge you can find them. get a concordance.
no sin is greater than another, and we are all full of sin.