Are You Going To Hell? Probably, But Who Cares?

reply to post by yourmaker


I am impressed by the amount of logical insight and back and forth discussion on this thread. I thought for sure it was going to be a bunch of religious zealots chastising me for questioning what does not make sense. Thank you to all of you so far. To those of you who wonder what type of hell I am referring to, I am referring to the generic hell, that of which there is eternal hell fire all around and people being burned and singed and tortured at every hour of everyday for all eternity.

Not going to lie here, I am pretty confident that the whole entire concept of torture in the after life was created to keep people in control and to ensure that those who think independently do not step out of line. I cannot wait to see December 21, 2012 come and pass for all those who are buying their underground bunkers in the hopes that it keeps them safe from the proverbial rapture that has already arrived and passed about 742 times by now.

Hell in my opinion in this life is being stifled at every single turn and not being allowed to think or be yourself. I love this site and these people. (for the most part

reply to post by DragonRain311

Your thoughts ATS?

I don't know. Makes me wonder about what religion they are. I don't know of any religion where you get sent to Hell for breaking some rules. Seems like an odd religion. One I've never heard of before.

In my religion there is the punishment of death for sin. But everyone has to deal with that. It has nothing to do with following rules. We all pay that punishment.

But my religion says that God sent his Son to defeat death for us in the end. When we die we go to be with the Lord. At the end of the world we will be resurrected on a new earth. It does say there might be Hell for those that choose to go there. But not for anyone that doesn't want to go.

In my religion there is a set of laws to make a nation holy, but says those were a shadow of things to come. They don't make the individual holy.

In fact my religion teaches that it is impossible for a person to save themselves. No matter what they do or how many rules they follow they will fail. They have a flesh nature and flesh heart that keeps them in bondage so that they cannot save themselves. It's like a person trying to save themselves from quicksand. They will only sink faster if they thrash around trying to do good works to get them out.

That is called legalism, and does not work, because if you've broken one part of the law, you've broken the whole of the law. It says that trying to save yourself with good works is like filthy rags to the Lord! Your own works are nothing compared to the work he will do in you.

After all, how good can your works be if you're stuck in quicksand? Gotta get out of the quicksand first. You gotta grab God's rope and climb out of your flesh nature first.

My religion teaches that the Holy Spirit was sent to guide our heart and change our flesh nature to a spiritual nature. Then we can follow the spiritual law. Does a wolf follow a set of rules to be a wolf? No, it lives by its nature. What then must one do to follow a spiritual set of laws? Our nature must become spiritual!

However, by the time that starts, you've already been saved. It's a free gift just to get you started. You get the gift of holiness and a ticket out of Hell the first time through the door. Without doing anything at all except saying you'll take the free ticket. He's lowered a rope to get you out. Grab it and climb up. Don't sink.

Don't fall to legalism. You don't check off your grocery list while you're sinking. Grab the rope first!

reply to post by tinfoilman


I like you. I find it very intriguing and refreshing to listen to someone who actually puts a positive spin on it and openly says and admits that it is impossible to live up to the expectations the televangelists put forward.

Underworld, there is no hell. All the infinitesimal duration instances of "the present" where space existed and your presence caused radiation, kinetics and disturbance, from your conception until your death, as a "cell" time slice, is your dwelling location once you are released from the bonds of the time current (you die).

Program and record this, your structure, well. Especially ensure you record the Presence which is the escape Door. Else this dwelling structure of your own creation will become as a "hell" for you. Especially after you time dwell around about within it for the 100 quadrillionth time and it never changes.

reply to post by DragonRain311

It is interesting to me that you have posted this thread today. I was pondering in the past couple of days that someone on ATS would write just this and ask this pertinent question. It is a struggle isn't it to try and figure such a thing out?

Well, I will share with you the insight that has been given to me with regards to this very question from the very ONE that has repaired the bridge through sacrifice and perfection for our return home.

It isn't so much that we are 'meant' to live in the fear without reprieve so much that is is a fear of understanding the repercussions of our choice long ago to fall from Grace which we all have inherited as a result. Now we are not meant to live in fear for the sake of fear alone, but rather for the sake of what that understanding will shed light on. Namely the state of your soul, in it's condition of being separated from G-d as a result of the choice to fall. As a result bringing into effect the new laws of free will and their true effect and repurcussions to the state of your soul and its immortality.

The fear that we are to recognize is an understanding of how lost we are without G-d. It is not to live in the state of fear once the truth is revealed but rather to have an understanding of what occurred here at the time we fell from Grace. The powers that took over this world at that very moment and how they affect us is our downfall and brings with it our ultimate destruction.

Once we come to the realization that we are living in a state of sin and destruction seems to be the result of all our endeavours as a human race, it is crystal clear the 'condition' of our souls. Destruction is the fingerprint of man upon this world. Heartache, loneliness, separation and a longing. That is the uereka moment for many people because at this realization one can see that they have been separated from the ultimate Source of all Creation and Truth.

This is the return to the bridge. So what is that bridge for our souls that was instantly put into effect the moment we fell from Grace?

Why was this completed the moment we fell? Because HIS Love for us is so undeservedly AMAZING!

The Bridge: What I want to translate here is that in order for us to return to The Source from our fallen state, something perfect had to come into our fallen world. This 'perfection' living as one of us in this fallen state of a world had to be the offering in sacrfice through HIS perfection as a man so that we could lay our sinfull state upon HIS perfection for us and through our free will relinquish the sinful state to be bridged through the One and Only Perfect Son of G-d because we could not do that for ourselves in our fallen state.

So through the very free will that we issued upon ourselves when we chose to fall from Grace, a perfect bridge was constructed through the Love of our Father to be in the body of a man living as one of us, whom upon HIS perfection and sacrifce we were able to lay our sins and free will inside HIS sacrifce for us. This is our bridge back to our Creator Father.

The fear is only in the fatal result of not recognizing the emancipation created for our release and the repercussion of continuing to live in the fallen laws of our free will without ever laying our lives down upon the sacrfice given to us for a bridge back to our Father Creator.

You see in our fallen state that adheres to the laws of our free will....................there is no release or salvation that we ourselves could ever hope to find. Sin cannot free itself of it's own condition using our own fallen navigation disconnected from G-d. Without a perfect sacrifice having lived as man and serving as a bridge for us to lay aside the fallen condition of free will upon HIS Perfection and sacrifice, we will never be released from the very condition we brought into this world the moment we fell.

The fear is in this understanding............the understanding of the fatal repurcussion and result of never acknowledging the true state of our condition that we all inherited in our fall. The moment we fell the principalities of darkness took over this world. Their purpose in the design of their take over, was and is to keep you from the truth that has the power to set you free. The fallen principalities have much to gain in stealing your souls. G-d had to work out our salvation in order to prevent us from the theft of the enemy for our immortal souls because of the great battle taking place in our world and it is over each and every one of our souls. Feeling the desolation of our soul in the 'lost' condition is our compass revealing the direction towards HIM and the bridge of perfection for our salvation.

In our fallen condition we have no way of doing this for ourselves. We are simply lost otherwise which is a sentiment felt and lived world wide in the condition of mankind without HIM. If you haven't noticed most of the entire planet is lost and feeling utterly defeated. Fear him who has the power to destroy your soul through the work of robbing you of the truth of salvation. The beginning of wisdom is understanding the fatal repurcussions that our free will and disconnection has brought into the state of our immortal being.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and discipline.

reply to post by DragonRain311


Well that's what the NT actually says. That it's not our job to fix things. Only God is able to fix things and he's already taken care of the problem.

Most of the talk of Hell fire and judgment in the Bible is only there to illustrate to us exactly what Jesus would be saving us from once he was crucified. But last I checked, that's already happened. It's not there to scare us out of our money like many of the televangelists seem to think.

reply to post by Egyptia


I truly respect and appreciate your thoughts. The reality is, at least in my opinion (and trust me, I am no fool, I do not mind discipline or wisdom) that we are all on separate paths, but connected to the same source. We all came from one, and will eventually return. Of course, if I die and there is nothing but darkness and an eternal void, then I will know that I am wrong, or I won't because I will no longer exist.

reply to post by DragonRain311


This is a tricky question. Most religions have a "hell". It depends on which religion your talking about. A little known aspect of some beliefs within Judaism is that there is a "hell", but it is not a place where you stay for eternity, and is not quite like the classical idea of eternal torture. Instead it is a place of learning and purification (which is extremely painful because you realize you could have avoided it, and be elsewhere). You eventually leave this hell after the new earth is created, and you are on that new earth with everyone else (though your position there will be lower than those who have lived a "good" life).

Other religions have no "out clause" and if you go to hell you are there for eternity being tortured in vicious ways by demons (someone posted a thread on this not too long ago that contained some Asiatic religious interpretations. Some of the things listed as grounds for going to hell were even more absurd than in Christian or Muslim traditions).

In the end, my own interpretation of the philosophical question of "Free Will" vs "Hell" can be summed up like this: If you have free will, and you end up in "hell", you have chosen to go there. You have walked into hell willingly.

I myself am a Christian. My thoughts mirror tin's very closely. We can't avoid "hell" by doing good things. We simply need to accept the sacrifice (and by extension mercy and grace) given at Calvary by Christ. The rest is a matter of trying to honor that gift, instead of taking it for granted.

Being a father myself, I can't imagine throwing my daughter into a lake of fire for eternity no matter WHAT she did. I certainly give her time outs in her room when she throws tantrums (which I'm sure seem like an eternity to HER ). In short, I'm not sure there isn't some kind of process where that punishment is eventually lifted. I can't reconcile the idea of a loving God with eternal hellfire for simply being human. Instead, I think it may only be eternal for those who are so corrupt and wicked in their souls, that despite the outcome, would rather "reign in hell than serve in heaven" (so to speak).

Either way, I would say that anyone who chastises you with threats of eternal damnation for your beliefs or your actions, should probably take a look in the mirror. None of us are free of sin. Christians simply believe theirs are covered by the blood of Christ. Unfortunately many of them take this as an excuse to wag their finger at others instead of taking the advice Jesus gave to "take the plank out of their own eye" before trying to remove the speck from their brothers.

I care whether or not I go. It's like being tortured but not dying and you just want to die but you can't. You're already dead.

Originally posted by chelle21689
I care whether or not I go. It's like being tortured but not dying and you just want to die but you can't. You're already dead.

When you're dead, you're dead. Way back at the beginning, in the garden, God did not tell Adam & Eve that if they ate so-and-so, they would die and go to hell, and be burned and tortured forever. No, He just said they would die, simply die. In God's Law, there is no penalty worse than death, so where do these "Hell" ideas come from? I'll tell you - from pagan sources, which crept into Christianity a few centuries after it was founded. The Lake of Fire is the closest thing we have to Hell in the Bible, and it is (I believe) for refinement, not torture, punishment, or eternal destruction. Ultimately, it's alle, alle, all in free! Why? Because God is Love.

Heaven, yes.

Hell, no!

I thought this thread to be very beneficial, it helped me think clearly about something that has been on my mind lately. I was raised Christian but left the church/reglious theology displayed by modern Christians. The opinions of some of the posters in this thread were things that I had not thought of before and I was glad to get the chance to read them.

Originally posted by tinfoilman
reply to post by DragonRain311

 

Your thoughts ATS?

I don't know. Makes me wonder about what religion they are. I don't know of any religion where you get sent to Hell for breaking some rules. Seems like an odd religion. One I've never heard of before.

In my religion there is the punishment of death for sin. But everyone has to deal with that. It has nothing to do with following rules. We all pay that punishment.

But my religion says that God sent his Son to defeat death for us in the end. When we die we go to be with the Lord. At the end of the world we will be resurrected on a new earth. It does say there might be Hell for those that choose to go there. But not for anyone that doesn't want to go.

In my religion there is a set of laws to make a nation holy, but says those were a shadow of things to come. They don't make the individual holy.

In fact my religion teaches that it is impossible for a person to save themselves. No matter what they do or how many rules they follow they will fail. They have a flesh nature and flesh heart that keeps them in bondage so that they cannot save themselves. It's like a person trying to save themselves from quicksand. They will only sink faster if they thrash around trying to do good works to get them out.

That is called legalism, and does not work, because if you've broken one part of the law, you've broken the whole of the law. It says that trying to save yourself with good works is like filthy rags to the Lord! Your own works are nothing compared to the work he will do in you.

After all, how good can your works be if you're stuck in quicksand? Gotta get out of the quicksand first. You gotta grab God's rope and climb out of your flesh nature first.

My religion teaches that the Holy Spirit was sent to guide our heart and change our flesh nature to a spiritual nature. Then we can follow the spiritual law. Does a wolf follow a set of rules to be a wolf? No, it lives by its nature. What then must one do to follow a spiritual set of laws? Our nature must become spiritual!

However, by the time that starts, you've already been saved. It's a free gift just to get you started. You get the gift of holiness and a ticket out of Hell the first time through the door. Without doing anything at all except saying you'll take the free ticket. He's lowered a rope to get you out. Grab it and climb up. Don't sink.

Don't fall to legalism. You don't check off your grocery list while you're sinking. Grab the rope first!

edit on 23-9-2012 by tinfoilman because: (no reason given)

This is a brilliant explanation. Bravo!!!

"Legalism" is what turns people off. It's what people *think* Christianity *is*. We've done such a bad job doing what Jesus wanted us to do.....

LOVE and DO NOT JUDGE your fellow man.

That's pretty much it.

But many many churches haven't done a good job with either part of that.

I think God spends a lot of time shaking his head and chuckling at the foolishness of us all here on earth. How little we really know...but we think we have it all figured out.