Arctic Ice Rotten to the Core

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


Here is legitimate link that actually provides evidence that backs up the claims made.

m.pnas.org...

Following the suggestions of a recent National Research Council report [NRC (National Research Council) (2006) Surface Tempera- ture Reconstructions for the Last 2,000 Years (Natl Acad Press, Washington, DC).], we reconstruct surface temperature at hemi- spheric and global scale for much of the last 2,000 years using a greatly expanded set of proxy data for decadal-to-centennial climate changes, recently updated instrumental data, and comple- mentary methods that have been thoroughly tested and validated with model simulation experiments. Our results extend previous conclusions that recent Northern Hemisphere surface temperature increases are likely anomalous in a long-term context. Recent warmth appears anomalous for at least the past 1,300 years whether or not tree-ring data are used. If tree-ring data are used, the conclusion can be extended to at least the past 1,700 years, but with additional strong caveats. The reconstructed amplitude of change over past centuries is greater than hitherto reported, with somewhat greater Medieval warmth in the Northern Hemisphere, albeit still not reaching recent levels.

Sorry, but real science proves that our current global temperature is the highest it has been more than a couple thousand years.

reply to post by poet1b


That's a paper made by Mann...the same AGW religious lunatic that made up the hockey Stick Graph in which he tried to bury the Medieval and Roman Warm Periods...

It is the same man who is a director of the site RealClimate.org which is linked to Al Gore through Environmnetal Media Services, a leftwing organization...

Contributors

Filed under: Contributor Bio's
— group @ 6 December 2004


The current permanent contributors to content on this site are:
•Gavin Schmidt
•Michael Mann
•Caspar Ammann
•Rasmus Benestad
•Ray Bradley
•Stefan Rahmstorf
•Eric Steig
•David Archer
•Ray Pierrehumbert
•Thibault de Garidel
•Jim Bouldin

www.realclimate.org...



Let's read a bit more from a "leftwing source"...

Environmental Media Services

Environmental Media Services (EMS) is a Washington, D.C. based nonprofit organization that is "dedicated to expanding media coverage of critical environmental and public health issues".[1][ EMS was founded in 1994 by Arlie Schardt, a former journalist, former communications director for Al Gore's 2000 Presidential campaign, and former head of the Environmental Defense Fund during the 1970s.

Their primary activities include holding forums that bring scientists knowledgeable in current environmental issues together with journalists, providing web hosting and support for environmental issues sites like RealClimate,[2] and providing recommendations to journalists trying to locate experts knowledgeable on environmental topics. They also issue press releases related to environmental issues and provide an aggregation service that disseminates recent news on environmental topics.

en.wikipedia.org...


Nice try, not to mention that you only gave one link and I gave several of them with different scientists...

Mann doesn't know real science from the pseudo-science he indoctrinates into people like you...

Originally posted by poet1b

Sorry, but real science proves that our current global temperature is the highest it has been more than a couple thousand years.

I posted several graphs and research papers from North America, Europe, Africa, and Asia ALL which say the climate was a lot warmer during the Medieval and Roman Warm Periods than it has been in the late 20th and 21st century...

It seems obvious that you also can't recognize real science even if it slapped you in the face and called you papa...

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


You posted several links that read like they were written by people who have no grasp on how scientific research is conducted, and links that don't support your claims. You might dislike Gore, but that only puts you in the same category as all those morons who got GW elected president.

You might not like my sources, but they actually provides scientific evidence that supports their conclusions.

And again, my links on the first page of the thread prove you completely wrong.

The current state of the Arctic Ocean is where scientists predicted it would be fifteen years from now. You want to bury your head in the sand, go ahead.

So what do we have in this thread? Someone that claims to be scientific, but doesn't listen to any of the evidence that doesn't support her presumptions...how convenient for her.

She off the bat claims people are ignorant and lying when they present evidence which doesn't match her views. She pulls out the "religious" card, and other idiotic fallacies because she's just got nothing else.




Talk about embracing ignorance.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

I posted several graphs and research papers from North America, Europe, Africa, and Asia ALL which say the climate was a lot warmer during the Medieval and Roman Warm Periods than it has been in the late 20th and 21st century...

You can see the idiocy oozing off her from this little snippet alone! She doesn't seem to realize that the temperature we're currently at right now isn't any kind of peak!! ... that we will continue to surpass these other warming periods as industry continues on polluting the oceans and atmosphere!! ... or that natural warming trends are different from anthropogenic warming trends... just completely clueless!!

Was the earth warmer during the 'Medieval Warm Period' than now? No. Regional temperatures do not represent the global temperature. The Medieval Warm Period (MWP) temperature graphs that people use to claim otherwise, do not represent the global average temperature.

Let's look at a real graph here:




You see...lots of images are floating around the interwebz which have conflicting data from that which you post...I know it may be difficult for you to comprehend that this can be, and also not be a lie...but it can...

Link

reply to post by poet1b


Not you didn't, and your links don't prove crap. I proved that your "scientists" like Mann are crackpots. I presented several research papers from all over the world which refute your claims, and those of Mann... All you have done is post the research from the same people who work for Al Gore to this day...

BTW, how about you try to prove those scientists I gave links to "don't have a grasp on science"...

Thousands of research papers from all over the world have proven the Medieval and Roman Warm Period were much warmer than the late 20th and 21st century, and no matter what ignorant people like yourself like to claim posting the crackpot theories from known liars like Mann, you won't change what those thousands of research papers say.

Give it up, it is obvious AGW is nothing but a religion to you...

reply to post by moniesisfun


First of all, I am a man, second of all, I posted research from North America, Europe, Asia, and Africa at least and they all say the temperatures were WARMER... The evidence I posted supports what I stated...

Third of all, how about you post a link to that excerpt you gave?...

Like this...

GLACIAL GEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE FOR THE MEDIEVAL
WARM PERIOD
JEAN M. GROVE
Girton College, Cambridge, U.K.
and
ROY SWITSUR
Wolfson College, Cambridge, U.K.
Abstract. It is hypothesised that the Medieval Warm Period was preceded and
followed by periods of moraine deposition associated with glacier expansion.
Improvements in the methodology of radiocarbon calibration make it possible
to convert radiocarbon ages to calendar dates with greater precision than was
previously possible. Dating of organic material closely associated with moraines
in many montane regions has reached the point where it is possible to survey
available information concerning the timing of the medieval warm period. The
results suggest that it was a global event occurring between about 900 and 1250 A.D., possibly interrupted by a minor readvance of ice between about 1050 and 1150 A.D.
...

Link


Now, to see whether or not the Medieval Warm Period was global, all we have to do is look at the real research from all over the globe, and not the crackpot lie from Mann...

Below are SEVERAL graphs that show the truth about the present, and the Medieval Warm Periods...

All you have to do is put your mouse over each graph to see the truth...

pages.science-skeptical.de...

All the AGW religious lunatics in this thread and out there have are the lies from Mann et al...

BTW, Mann is the only one who came up with the hockey stick graph, his best buddies, like Jones, and Tremberth etc, jumped in the bandwagon claiming his research is good when in fact it isn't as the research from all over the globe clearly shows...

The Hockey Stick Graph was an attempt by the elites to wipe the Medieval and Roman Warm Periods from memory, when that didn't work Mann's buddies just extrapolated their research which showed the Medieval Warm Period and part of the Roman Warm Period with Mann's graph... This extrapolation shows what appears to be a sharp increase surpasing the Medieval Warm, and Roman Warm Periods, but when you check the research from all over the world you find that this is another lie, in fact the Medieval and Roman Warm Periods were WARMER than at any time during the late 20th and 21st century...

Originally posted by moniesisfun
...

You see...lots of images are floating around the interwebz which have conflicting data from that which you post...I know it may be difficult for you to comprehend that this can be, and also not be a lie...but it can...

Link

edit on 28-9-2012 by moniesisfun because: (no reason given)

Really?... So, Africa, Asia, Europe, North America, Central America, South America and Antarctica are "regional" and not global?...

All of these areas together show a picture of the globe, and that picture is that the Medieval, Roman, and Little Ice Age were GLOBAL events, and not the lie being perpetrated by the AGW religious fanatics...

Yes there is new research which comes none-the-less from scientists who BELIEVE AGW, yet this research states that the Medieval Warm Period temperatures which affected Europe also affected Antarctica. That research only studied Antarctica and not any other area around the world.

For evidence of the Medieval Warm Period happening in Central and South America here is a good site.
sites.google.com...

In the above link you will find dozens of references and links to how the Medieval Warm Period affected Central and South America to the point that many civilizations were destroyed and/or people abandoned large cities because of the Medieval Climate Change.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


Your link has a map with lots of graphs, and no evidence to support those graphs, no discussion on how the data was obtained, therefore no scientific foundation.

When you post something which explains how the numbers were obtained, then you with have made a point.

reply to post by poet1b


Quite a few of them tell you exactly from where those graphs came from. I also gave other graphs before, as well as peer-reviewed papers from North America, Europe, Africa, and Asia and they all say the same thing the Medieval Warm Period was warmer than the present.

I have made my point plenty of times, all you have given is links to Mann's work, the same Mann who created the Hockey Stick LIE. Give it up already, your dear scientists were caught lying through their teeth, and were caught infraganti. The real research has been ongoing even before Mann et al decided to come up with the anthropogenic Global Warming lie, and the studies have been ongoing to this day. All of them say the same thing The Medieval, the Roman and the Little Ice Age were all global phenomenon, and not regional as the AGW religious lunatics like to claim.

It is obvious why you, like others before you, don't want to accept the facts, once you accept that those time periods were not just "regional events" but were rather global, and find out that CO2 levels were 280ppm -290ppm, plus what all the REAL research for the current Climate Change say it is obvious that CO2 is not the problem...

...

Current warmth seems to be occurring nearly everywhere at the same time and is largest at high latitudes in the Northern Hemisphere. Over the last 50 years, the largest annual and seasonal warmings have occurred in Alaska, Siberia and the Antarctic Peninsula. Most ocean areas have warmed. Because these areas are remote and far away from major cities, it is clear to climatologists that the warming is not due to the influence of pollution from urban areas.

www.nasa.gov...

Let me give a small excerpt from the link about the Climate Changes in central and South America, including the Medieval Warm Period, this excerpt explains why there is more research for Europe than most of the rest of the world for this time period, althought there are some research papers for other parts of the globe they are not as numerous as the one for Europe and China.

Droughts, Floods, the Medieval Warm Period and the Rise and Fall of Civilisations in Central and South America

This prints onto 20 A4 pages.
Changes in climate together with extreme weather events have played major roles in the history of the pre-Columbian civilizations of Central and South America of the past two millennia, including the period known as the Medieval Warm Period.

Below is a brief narrative of major climate related events in Central and South America, from the start of the Christian era to the 16th Century.

This timespan is necessary both to provide explanation and set Hubert Lamb's Medieval Warm Period (MWP) in a context. All that is below was unknown to Lamb when he wrote 'Climate, History and the Modern World' (1982).

Lamb was the first to use the term Medieval Warm Epoch. Lamb thought that this epoch was at its maximum between 1000 AD–1300 AD, and that it peaked in the 11th Century.

Lamb worked predominantly from written records (Inevitably Europe has more of these, going back far longer, than all other regions of the world; with a possible exception of China.) and noted that his Medieval Warm Epoch coincided with the West European period known to historians as the High Middle Ages; a period of relative stability, peace and prosperity; in the preceding centuries the opposite had often been the case.
...

sites.google.com...

Today's climate has not even come close to how hot it was during the Medieval Warm Period, or the Roman Warm Period, I have also made my case that the reason why we are seeing so many weather extremes is not because of the warming but rather because of the interstellar cloud which our Solar System is slowly encountering. That is imo the real reason why we are seeing these weather extremes, and it is why we must learn to adapt to these changes like the ancient people had to do.

Even thou we are going through these changes, a cooling period would be worse than a warming period. During warming periods humanity, as well as the flora and fauna of the world florished. During such times there are always species that don't make it and new ones that come up.

If you are really worried about the environment there are real toxic chemicals being spilled to this day and not much is being said about this, the "en vogue" of these days is for the ignorant masses to jump in the AGW (Anthropogenic Global Warming) bandwagon more than to worry about real environmental problems occurring to this day.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


Sorry, but it is warmer now than it was during the MWP.

www.ncdc.noaa.gov...

In summary, it appears that the late 20th and early 21st centuries are likely the warmest period the Earth has seen in at least 1200 years.

And this data is 5 years old, during which time globalwarming has continued to accelerate.

Even you own links point out that the MWP was not consistent around the globe, and was primarily an Atlantic based change, while during the same time the N Pacific was actually cooler.

And you have to address the articles on the first page of the thread that prove you wrong. Instead of looking at the facts you throw up out dated links, and jump to unsupported conclusions.

There is one interesting note. I haven't managed to find much interesting information on expected climate change. Wet areas are expected to get wetter, dry areas to get drier, more extremes everywhere, but not anything that indicates we have any kind of idea how the current rapid increase in global temperatures will effect global climate. Maybe better studies of the MWP might offer some clues. What caused those changes?

reply to post by Sinter Klaas


Sorry it took so long to reply.

The opening link still works for me.

Here is a link from the opening article that is worth quoting. If you want the whole article you have to purchase it but the opening paragraph points out important realities about the science behind determining past climate.

www.nature.com...#/ref6

although observations show a more or less continuous decline for the past four or five decades3, 4, there are few long-term records with which to assess natural sea ice variability. Until now, the question of whether or not current trends are potentially anomalous5 has therefore remained unanswerable. Here we use a network of high-resolution terrestrial proxies from the circum-Arctic region to reconstruct past extents of summer sea ice, and show that—although extensive uncertainties remain, especially before the sixteenth century—both the duration and magnitude of the current decline in sea ice seem to be unprecedented for the past 1,450 years.

This is the second article from the first page. The long still works for me. I thought I should throw up this additional quote that demonstrates the degree to which the Arctic region is thawing out.

m.io9.com...

We're rolling back millions of years of change in the Arctic, and soon enough the area will be able to support the same kind of life found in the region over 2.5 million years ago. That's the message from today's presentation by Alexandre Guertin-Pasquier of the University of Montreal's Department of Geography, at the Canadian Paleontology Conference in Toronto.

What part of rolling back millions of years don't people get.

Originally posted by poet1b

Sorry, but it is warmer now than it was during the MWP.

Sorry, but AGAIN that data is the same one used by the IPCC which has Mann's Hockey Stick Graph extrapolated with other research... Mann's Hockey Stick graph is a known fraud, because hundreds of other research clearly points out that the Medieval Warm Period was warmer than the present...

You are not going to convince me, nor anyone else because that data is being presented by the same people who want to implement a world government "to combat Climate Change"...

You have been indoctrinated so much that you can't differentiate reality and facts from fiction.

Mann's hockey stick graph is a farce...more so when the temperature taken are from cities where it is known that temperatures are artificially increased by concrete, ventilation shafts and other manmade machinery which artificially increases the temperatures. This is known as the "heat island effect".

I actually wrote a long thread in these forums some yerars back with dozens and dozens of pictures of the stations where temperature data are taken from, and the mayority of them suffer from the heat island effect. Even though AGW lunatics like Mann claim that the heat island effect is taken into account, thousands of scientists say otherwise.

Originally posted by poet1b
Even you own links point out that the MWP was not consistent around the globe, and was primarily an Atlantic based change, while during the same time the N Pacific was actually cooler.

The current Climate Change hasn't been consistent either... In many areas it has been warmer than in others... Ocean areas have warmed the most as well as areas which are FAR AWAY FROM SOURCES OF CO2/POLLUTION, which clearly point out that CO2 is not the problem...

Climate Changes are NEVER consistent all around the globe... In case you didn't know Asia is not affected by the Atlantic, yet China, Russia, and all of Europe was affected and temperatures were much higher than they are now. During the Medieval Warm Periods temperatures reached up to 3 degrees Celcius higher than they are now, and During the Roman Warm Period temperatures were as high as 4 degrees celsius. Not all areas warm at the same time or at the same rate EVER... Not even during the ongoing Climate Change...

Again, you are showing a lot of ignorance on the topic

Originally posted by poet1b
And you have to address the articles on the first page of the thread that prove you wrong. Instead of looking at the facts you throw up out dated links, and jump to unsupported conclusions.

There are no "outdated articles"... The AGW camp still uses Arrhenius's equation for the temperature dependence of the reaction rate constant which was invented back in 1889 by Svante Arrhenius, althou it was proposed first in 1884 by Dutch chemist J. H. van 't Hoff.

Not to mention that there are other more modern research which also states clearly that these past Climate Changes were global in nature...

All you have to do to realize that they were global in nature is find the research from all over the globe which clearly states it was WARMER than at any time in the current warm period...

I gave PLENTY of research which disputes and refutes the claims made by the government sponsored websites you gave links to...

Originally posted by poet1b
There is one interesting note. I haven't managed to find much interesting information on expected climate change. Wet areas are expected to get wetter, dry areas to get drier, more extremes everywhere, but not anything that indicates we have any kind of idea how the current rapid increase in global temperatures will effect global climate. Maybe better studies of the MWP might offer some clues. What caused those changes?

There have been past Climate Changes that have been faster, and worse than the present one... In the past there have been Climate Changes that occurred within 10 years and less, and the ongoing Climate Change started since the 1600s, as the Earth was slowly recovering from the LIA (Little Ice Age)

In case you didn't read the paper I gave about what happened in Egypt during the Medieval Warm Period there were floods and droughts which caused famines, and economic disasters unmatched for the last 2,000 years. Those disasters surpass any, and every one which has occurred during the late 20th and 21st century.

Extreme Nile floods and famines in Medieval Egypt AD 930–1500 and their climatic implications
by: F. Hassan
In: Quaternary International, Vol. 173-174 (October 2007) , p. 101--112.
Citation format (all formats): plainHarvardDIN1505simple HTML
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URL: dx.doi.org...
DOI: 10.1016/j.quaint.2007.06.001

Abstract
Nile gauge records of variations in Nile floods from the 9th century to the 15th century AD reveal pronounced episodes of low Nile and high Nile flood discharge. Historical data reveal that this period was also characterized by the worst known famines on record. Exploratory comparisons of variations in Nile flood discharge with high-resolution data on sea surface temperature of the North Atlantic climate from three case studies suggest that rainfall at the source of the Nile was influenced by the North Atlantic Oscillation. However, there are apparently flip-flop reversals from periods when variations in Nile flood discharge are positively related to North Atlantic warming to periods where the opposite takes place. The key transitions occur at AD 900, 1010, 1070, 1180, 1350 and 1400. The putative flip-flop junctures, which require further confirmation, appear to be quite rapid and some seem to have had dramatic effects on Nile flood discharge, especially if they recurred at short intervals, characteristic of the period from the 9th to the 14th century, coincident with the so-called Medieval Warm Period. The transition from one state to the other was characterized by incidents of low, high or a succession of both low and high extreme floods. The cluster of extreme floods was detrimental causing famines and economic disasters that are unmatched over the last 2000 years.

www.bibsonomy.org...

In doing research on the Medieval Warming Period, possible causes and explanation, I notice no information on methane levels.

Two major inventions in early medieval times greatly shaped Europe. One was the plow, developed by the Slavs. The other was the horse collar, which resulted in a large rise in the horse population across Europe. European population grew considerably during this period, and so did the animal population, with many farmers having a horse, possibly an ox, a couple of dairy cows, half a dozens pigs and sheep, chickens, and possibly geese or ducks. The average farm might of had more animals than humans.

This could have added up to a whole lot of methane production. Could it be enough Methane production to warm the climate? We do know that when the plagues came, the warm period ended. We also know that as many, if not more, animals died than people.

What caused the plagues? Biggest reason is Christianities persecution of witches, and their belief that cats were demonic, and so killed off all the cats, which led to a large rise in rats.

www.clim-past.net...

www.hyw.com...

www.libraryindex.com...

www.redwulf.info...

reply to post by poet1b


No, many of the studies show a cosmic event as the culprit for the Medieval Warm Period, and the Sun was also a culprit. If methane levels had increased it would be found in the geological record, yet it is not.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


You sound like a broken record, "it's the hockey stick, it's the hockey stick."

NO! It's the results of numerous scientific studies using different methods coming up with same results over and over again. All your links and claims add up to pure nonsense, junk pretending to be science. It does take much reading to see the huge difference in quality between the links I provide, and your links. My links provide testing and Measuring methods and describe how they evuated the data, while you links make a lot of claims and provide no scientific evidence to back said clams.

Believe what you want, obviously you have made up your mind, and I don't care to bother changing it.

Originally posted by poet1b

You sound like a broken record, "it's the hockey stick, it's the hockey stick."
...

The one that sounds like a broken record is you... AGAIN you present papers done by Mann et al, the accomplices of Mann in his fraud... The research I have given are from many other scientists who dispute the lies perpetrated by Mann... Didn't you read the fact that Mann's site "RealClimate" is being funded by the former director of Al Gore through Environmental Media Services?... Mann and his cronies like Trembath, Jones et al are mouthpieces for Al Gore...

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


There was no cosmic event, and the sun wasnt a culprit, and there are no scientists who back this claim.

Ah, but methane does have apt to do with global warming.

www.tetontectonics.org...

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


It is the phony baloney scientists in your links that get paid big bucks to put out false evidence about global warming.

All my links are independent research coming to the same conclusion, and that is easy to see because they actually explain how their research was done.

None of your links do absolutely nothing to refute link on the first page that tells us we now have soil exposed that has been frozen for millions of years.