Clash of Civilizations or Politically Manufactured Rage?

Last night, Bill Maher had Salmon Rushdie, Chris Matthews and Rana Foroohar on his show and they talked about Muslim Rage in a VERY interesting segment that has opened my eyes to the possibility of how we are ALL being used in this "Western vs Muslim war" that is now coming boldly to the forefront.

Bill Maher seems to think that ridding the world of religion is the answer, but I disagree with him on that. I believe in freedom of religion. However, I do have a new insight into what drives extremist Muslims in foreign countries to do some of the things they do. There are religio-political leaders in the Middle East who feed manufactured rage to the people in the streets. After listening to this short segment, I think I have a deeper understanding of what's happening.

Even though Bin Laden is dead, it's probable (IMO) that Muslims and Westerners are being manipulated into the fight that he always wanted.

Panelist Chris Matthews thought that Maher’s assertion reflected, in a way, what Osama bin Laden‘s goal had been — to turn, say, the U.S. against Islam (rather than simply against him and terrorist groups like Al-Qaeda) and promote a clash between two different, opposing civilizations.

What I find even more important is the probability that the POLITICAL - not religious - leaders are driving the rage in Islamic countries and encouraging their people to revolt against the US. This is not a religious battle, it's a political one.

Author Salman Rushdie cautioned the panel to remember that there are political factors at play behind the displays of “rage” in North Africa and the Middle East — something Maher essentially agreed with, but noted that such political leadership wouldn’t exist without fundamentalist Islam.

A very interesting and eye-opening segment for me to see. I hope you'll watch and comment.

Video at Source

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


Wonderful post BH, I will be paying close attention to the debate, yes political, people have been saying that for ages.

I have no desire what so ever to insult Islam even though I often start topics on Islam, I am fascinated by what is going on in the ME and wish only to educate, but years of indoctrination and propaganda ?

What are ya gonna do?



To little to late, that's my opinion.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


I watched it last night also, and while I'm not real fond of Bill Maher I do enjoy the show since he usually features guests of opposing views who somehow manage to debate without getting personal.

I do at least agree with him in that I also believe that all of these "Muslim Rage" incidents are more likely that not pre-manufactured by political leaders (in cahoots with religious leaders) as a control mechanism to perpetuate the "us versus them" conflict.

If you recall it was an Egyptian television show that really brought the current subject of 'rage" to the forefront, as most Muslims knew nothing of the video until it was publicized by fellow Muslims. So why weren't there groups of irate Muslims attacking the television station that put it on air instead of attacking American embassies? The embassies weren't the ones publicizing the video.

Then there are other questions: was it Muslim officials promoting the unrest or could it have covertly been US officials? The war on terror is a big money making machine for those who have invested with companies that are involved (ahem...Halliburton, etc...ahem). Could it be a collaboration of both sides in the whole money in exchange for 'fill in the blank"?

Well, leaving with more questions than I started with, but I do believe none of this is spontaneous. I believe these incidents of rage are induced- but by whom?

Great post star and flag

I have no doubt that both sides are being manipulated with the eventual goal of an open war, as opposed to the covert and proxy one currently being waged

However, and I'm sure I'm gonna take some flack for this
We are very different, with different beliefs, morals, values and tolerance's
Its these last three that cause the problem between us
And will always cause friction

This is inevitable with foreign policy and the manipulation you mention

Wow...I totally dis-agree w/ everything said....well, the finer points pointed out by the OP. I say when someone sees their 2 yr old lying dead from bombs it goes far beyond politics.

Bin laden has caused this? He and his friends have caused this using phyops and politics?

I'm probably missing the whole point here because I blame no-one but us. We started this. It's a power play for resources, and the right of way. For instance....powerful men have wanted the Caspian sea to lay their oil pipe-line...which they need Iran out of the way to do this.

Saddam signed a huge oil deal w/ France right before his Country was invaded by a lie and he was murdered.

In my opinion, bin laden might have been a man trying to save his way of life and his land from someone that wanted to take it away.

As far as the Muslim Rage...if we're talking about the movie....it was the same assholes that belong to the United States that has caused this for their "end game "

www.youtube.com...

If we're talking about a group of people being pissed off because their loved ones are being murdered, they fear for their lives daily, their homes and cities are being torn apart and they happen to be Muslims...I'd be enraged too.

reply to post by Neocrusader

Originally posted by Neocrusader
However, and I'm sure I'm gonna take some flack for this
We are very different, with different beliefs, values and tolerance's

That's one thing Chris mentioned. There are countries where Muslims and Jews live and operate peacefully, side by side. However, I don't think it would take much of a concerted effort by those with political interests to manufacture rage between the religions.

We must realize that we are being used as pawns and refuse to be manipulated into hatred.

And will always cause friction

Friction, I can handle. Disagreement, I can deal with. Killing, hatred and fear? Not so much.

I wish I could have found the entire video, because Bill said some things about the religion of Islam that were interesting. One being that Islam is different than all other religions. That seems to be the opinion of some here. I disagree. The religion itself is a set of rules and ideas. It's the people who follow them and how seriously they take these ideas that shows the differences. It's a cultural difference, for sure, but I wonder how US citizens would react if all the politicians and religious leaders here had the same goal to make us hate Muslims. (Unfortunately, some of them do - and unfortunately, some of them are successful... )

Thanks for the posts, so far!

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


OMG! Know I know that the end of the world is nigh!

I'm not a big fan of Maher either but this was a excellent discussion.

One thing that many don't understand though, but these people do, is that manipulation is easier in improvised countries. He who controls the message, controls the masses.

But also truth be told, when attacked, people aren't going to forgive and forget, they are going to fight back. That is the truth the world over.

They won't even think twice about being manipulated.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


That's what I mean.
There are places where we live together but there is frequent 'friction'

Throw in manipulation that friction WILL lead to open war

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


Islam is much, much more than a mere religion. It is a way of life and governance as well. That differentiates it from all the others.

That is where the basis of the clash begins.

reply to post by TDawgRex


Absolutely its a total sociopolitical all encompassing way of life in its fundamental form

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Last night, Bill Maher had Salmon Rushdie, Chris Matthews and Rana Foroohar on his show and they talked about Muslim Rage in a VERY interesting segment that has opened my eyes to the possibility of how we are ALL being used in this "Western vs Muslim war" that is now coming boldly to the forefront.

Interesting read but I'd like to point out that it isn't just the West that is having issues with Muslims or actually the Islamic extremists. China has been dealing with many growing situations over the past few years in their Western provinces and India of course has had a few run ins going back decades....

Just tossing that out there.

PEACE

reply to post by SLAYER69


I believe that the world is heading for a clash of cultures beyond imagination within the next decade or so...probably even sooner. Not doom mongering, but with todays current tech, people are becoming aware of how other cultures view them and visa-versa. And there are always those who take offense.

I have come to the state of thinking that the societal tech that would unite humanity will be it's downfall instead.

Well history is repeating itself the current generation in the West have deluded themselves in to thinking there is any middle ground to be had between the radical form of Islam, and we have all seen how easy it is for a moderate to become radicalized.

The East and West have been at "war" for centuries that went hot during the crusades of "my religion is better than their religion" and that played out with crusades part deux.

What we have witnessed for the past 12 years is what possibly led up to those crusades the anger and hatred of the west has always been there tho some deny that and think they just loved the west.

They never have.

With the support of Isreal and some asinine foreign policy decisions yeah things could have been done differently but we are here in the here and now.

Religion is an excuse thsose people of faith are being used simple fact anger leads to hatred which leads to irrational thought as we have seen the past few weeks.

What I saw is not so civilized actions and yeah they were being manipulated just in case my point is not that clear :

When people say the TPM and OWS movements were co opted what makes people think the same isn't true of the Jihadists.

They are being used and they are all too happy to oblige.

It's been several years, but I recall looking at projections for Muslim immigrants into Europe over the decades through the 21st century.

I saw little hope of integration, and a high probability for all out war by mid century.

I'm not about to claim to know enough on the issue to say this or that group is pulling strings...it seems to be a mess with many hands at work trying to accelerate the potential chaos...

That's exactly what I see.

People using the emotional and spiritual energies of the people against the whole of our species.

There will come a point when we either decide to grow up, else burn out before our time.

I have long held that the technological and specifically communicative advances would be our best shot of world peace instead of destruction, however seeing various interests try to control the flow of information is quite disturbing.

I'm left thinking there may be little hope for peace before the earth burns again.

So is it a clash of civilizations or a politically manufactured rage??

Both.

It's something that would have come to be organically in the following decades, but has been accelerated to promote likely more than a couple of agendas, by states, religious leaders, fools with cameras, and whoever else thinks they can cash in on the chaos.

What it most certainly isn't is a black and white picture. Whoever tells you it is either doesn't have the capacity for intellectual depth, else is attempting to manipulate you.

'Clash of Civilisation' is an ill conceived hubric book deservedly of the trash bin.

Let's face the facts:-

If civilisations were NOT civilised, would they had been able to survive till today?

No. They would have been extinct long ago.

What makes a nation 'civilised'?

It's the ability of a group of humans to rationalise over the issue on how they with many differences aims and agendas, can co-exist in peace by searching upon common grounds for all to stand on, agree upon, and translated into enforceable laws for the continuation of that group.

And as that society sees a bigger world, it can either choose isolation or integration based upon further commonalities to survive. The result of which, we see happening in our world today.

Differences abound, but the common aims of humanity are no different from any single society, for we are all one race - human. We bleed and laughed the same. We aspire for justice, equality, peace, love, shared prosperity, progress and responsible freedom all the same, no matter whatever the differences cultural or tradition, we have.

The only problem we flawed mankind faced often are the 7 deadly sins - greed, pride, lust, gluttony, sloth, wrath and envy, espacially by leaders. Those flaws alone if taken not in excess, can lead to stumbling but progress still. But when taken in excess, it only leads to the doom of mankind.

And it is most unfortunately that our political and economic leaders, whom are only flawed mortals, commits those sins, using them to manipulate the rest of mankind, through dividing and conquering, do they selfishly succeed in life, leaving many behind.

And such excesses are not limited to one civilisation. It is in all, and worse, often amongst the most vocal BUT small minority.

Dealing with it is another issue, on how to be democratic, listen to all, yet having the guts to do the right thing for the majority after discussions and debates, without leaving that minority behind.

reply to post by TDawgRex

Originally posted by TDawgRex
Islam is much, much more than a mere religion. It is a way of life and governance as well.

I would rephrase that to say that the leaders in question are USING their religion to enforce a way of life and governance. I just can't bring myself to "blame" a set of tenets or to hold it responsible. It's the way the religion and the people are being USED that creates the problems. There are many peaceful Muslims who would just laugh if their prophet were ridiculed or made fun of.

And as far as Islam being different than all other religions, I see many people who think Christianity as a way of life and many of our laws (governance) have come from religious (specifically Christian) beliefs. Why is gay marriage not legal, for example? Because the bible says something about it and Christians are forcing the issue in government. And the Christian lobbyists have political power. If the Christian religion was just a mere religion, we wouldn't have the religio-political struggles every election that we have.

We just live in a very different culture, where freedom of speech and expression are valued (at least, for now).

The biggest problem with the Middle East is the fact that the Political Leaders ARE the religious leaders, at least for the most part. The Clerics stir up the trouble. I would assume they get their orders from higher ups.

reply to post by jimmiec


That's why it's so important to keep a clear separation between religion and governance, or church and state.

Thanks for all the great responses.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
What I find even more important is the probability that the POLITICAL - not religious - leaders are driving the rage in Islamic countries and encouraging their people to revolt against the US. This is not a religious battle, it's a political one.

Religions ARE political.

religion = politics = religion

reply to post by yourmaker


Yes, I agree. And it's becoming more clear all the time to me. But many would argue with you.

In the world at large, where people are just living their lives and not thinking about such things, they mean two different things to people. Some people are political without being religious and vice versa.

They SHOULD be kept separate. It's dangerous when they merge. That's what happened in the Middle East and to a lesser extent, here.