Bolivia's Mysterious Ancient El Fuerte (The Fortress)

Slayer, I think you'll find interesting this info regarding the use of water by these cultures :



www.peruculturaljourneys.com...

An incredible example of a circa 9,600bc antedeluvial site. The tracks are the same as those found in Malta.

First off - credit to the OP, I would rather read about past civilizations here instead of Romney's tax returns.
Secondly, man, you are all one smart bunch and I want to know when we are holding the first/next ATS conference as I would love to meet the originators of some of these ideas.

That aside, here are my thoughts on what El Fuerte was/is: Its a public works food processing plant!


While none of us here seem to have traveled to El Fuerte (no one commented that they had), its difficult to determine what the purpose was just based on photos. The ideas and concepts of irrigation, plumbing, cattle watering, etc. all seam very intriguing and it would make sense that a project of this size could be a "public works" effort. Based on the photo evidence and a VERY short review, here are a few items that surface for me and led me to believe its for processing food:

The 2 Long Tracks- Each track has a carved pattern to the right and left. The pattern is a series of end-to-end diamonds that are not very ornate, however, the tracks themselves are smooth inside and very straight. My thought is that this design is for Grain Processing. Specifically, 1 large spindle (similar to a large wooden spool that they carry cable on) sits with its 2 wheels in the groves. In the center of the spindle sits the grinding hub. The hub itself would be covered in crossed wooden or stone inserts that would mesh into the diamond patterns. Grain would either be swept onto the cross hatched pattern and/or it would drop from the hub as the giant spindle would roll through the 2 smooth tracks. The weight would be great enough that after a few passes, the grain would be chopped into meal and/or separated from its chaff. After 2-3 passes, the grain would be swept down the hill to be collected at the base. The method itself would be a combination of man/machine and would provide an large-scale way of feeding the masses. I do believe that water was also involved somehow and possibly it was used to push wheels that would add tension to the hubs uphill return. As there are many "stairs" across the surface, they may have been placed there for the workers as they are working on the mill.

Track Details:

www.cast.uark.edu...

farm6.staticflickr.com...

3.bp.blogspot.com...

The Cut Outs, I believe they could have been used for a few purposes. First, to separate the food they were processing (corn/husk, wheat/chaff). The "food" would be pushed down into the lower catch bins and the byproduct would be pushed into other bins for collection. It would be buch easier to draw food from the catch bins and it would make sense that gravity would be used in the process. What we do NOT see, are woods and fabrics that may have also been on site at the time. There are may carved holes in the rocks that could have held timbers that formed storage areas or troughs for the food. Fabric could have also been deployed in a way where it separated out the byproduct as workers broomed, pushed or shoveled the food down the hill (think 2 poles sticking out horizontally with fabric stretched between the 2 & workers shoveling grain onto the mesh fabric).

Second, the cutouts on the bottom could have been ovens for on-site bread baking - hence the black discoloration. The carve outs were the backs of the ovens and the fronts (which are no longer there) was comprised of stacked stones similar to how a brick oven is constructed these days (just no mortar). The loose stack allowed them to maintain the ovens with periodic dismantling for thorough cleaning.


The "gear"One other curious feature that also stands out is the large circular cut out with what looks like teeth (the gear shaped object). This could have housed a large series of cogs that may have been used as a tensioner / pulley system for the grinding spindle.

"The Gear" - notice how its at the end of the 2 tracks?

files.abovetopsecret.com...

As I just wrote the note above, I also realized that it may have also worked in reverse, with the spindle rolling down the hill to put tention into a mechanism that sat in the "geared cutout". The geared cutout could have been the "mill" business end of the operation. In either case, it seems to fit well.

We have a LARGE project here that does not appear to have religious significance nor is iconic of a symbol of a rulers power. Every time I see an ancient site like this (minimal ornamentation), I am always looking for the "Utility" in the structure.

Thoughts???

PS - either it could be everything I said above, or its one of the first waterparks known to man "El Fuerte Falls - Now open sundays!!"

reply to post by SLAYER69

It's only when you posted the map of the overall site (which I never seen before) that I too had to think of Yonaguni.
A resemblance that, by the way, also came to mind a couple of days ago when reading the Etruscan pyramid thread.
Especially when seeing this picture:

Three different places and times, I know, but they all have their familiar features.

Thanks for another great thread here, you brought up some beautiful pictures of 'El Fuerte'.

reply to post by SLAYER69


You, & many others are the reason I love this site.

Even though I hang out in the Political and Military forums for the most part, threads like this are what really brought me to ATS.

You get me a thinkin' (OUCH!), and hence a education as well.

Thanks for that and keep up the good work.

From what I understand, the carved recesses in the rock once held statues, paying tribute/respect for ancient kings/queens of the day, enshrined in memorial for how they appeared in their 'shells'. There should be some remnants of these statues found under sediment at the base of these valleys. A tsunami from an asteroid would have cleared these statues from their foundations/enclosures. On another note, it's a shame that so many historical sites throughout the world have been debased/destroyed/plundered when they should have been protected as parks by the host countries. Like the video.

reply to post by YoungSoul


Well I'm not sure how a completely carved stone mountain top would work for step farming. I know other cultures in the area practiced that but this site doesn't really lend itself to that IMO.

reply to post by SLAYER69


Like I said, its all Planetary, its all about the Stars. Nothing these people did, were without reason, involving the Universe. Now it DOES look like a spaceship, but that is even more speculative......

Makes me think of a big space ship.
all the windows down the sides.

primetives would draw BIG piture on the ground to be seen from the sky.
it is for the gods!
I think they build this to make the gods come back and be happy over what they built.

reply to post by SLAYER69


The parallel grooves look like wheel tracks to me. Or rail lines if you prefer.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
reply to post by Angrybadger

 

The water speculation seems to be the big theory.

The issue there is that in this location the average rain fall is ample for local farming. So, unless the site is much older than believed and created during a period where the local environment was much dryer then in that case either rain god worship or water collection would have been it's original purpose...

If the grooves lead to a cistern that would quickly prove the water collection hypothesis. Do you know if that is that case?

As to why they would want a water collection system in an area with a lot of rain is quite possibly convenience. It is easier to just sit while the rain fills your cistern instead of walking down to the river and carrying the water back up.

reply to post by Mkoll


I agree it's a possibility but I'm not convinced though.
Too many other unrelated features that seem to have been carved around the same period.

reply to post by SLAYER69


Thanks for posting this, as I've never seen or heard of this site before. My thought on those 2 parallel grooves is that perhaps they had some ceremonial function, wherein a shaman or priest on a wooden sledge was lowered down along the grooves, simulating a journey into the underworld, in search of visions.

The "cistern" at the top could have held the men and/or pulleys, etc involved in the lowering of the sledge, & perhaps the shaman was under the influence of one or another hallucinogens. As he traveled downward, he may have concentrated on the diamond pattern moving under him as a way to spark a trance state.
There's a good article on trance-state representations in early artworks here (scroll down to the 2nd part, dealing with Stone Age rock art).

The carved niches may well have held statues devoted to gods of the original creators of the site. It wouldn't be difficult to imagine the later Spanish inhabitants eradicating any trace of a non-Catholic pagan religion, as they did elsewhere.

One of the things that makes these ancient sites so enigmatic is the fact that any "accessories" like wooden structures, roofs, posts & pegs, etc, along with any ropes that may have been used with them, have long since deteriorated or been removed in the past for probable reuse elsewhere.

Thanks again for this thread; I have a new/old site to look into further.

Thank you for posting this! The 'carving' of the hill is very intriguing. I have been to Tiuanaku (some distance, but still) where they had a bath, which - filled with water - the people used for astronomical measurement. I haven't been able to find a picture yet. Next to it there was a stone 3D-model for a new 'star mirror' (or a small one for travel: "ha, that's really handy Xilamxjzo!")

Out of context, but most curious about Tiuanaku i found the clear racial definement of the carved heads. Asian and Negroid features could be seen, which for me made very clear they had met each other before. 700 AD?! It was strange news for me.

Originally posted by DocHolidaze
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

it seem that those two parralell groves might collect rain water? it hard to tell with out actully being there and observing, if u could be there to see if water flows down those groves maybe that may be a away to get inside "the fortress"

That's exactly what I was thinking.

I think the two narrow pathways could be for water. From the photographs supplied it appears the two pathways are not perfectly sculptured as in perfectly cut away. Water is very powerful and when it runs continuously or at least regularly then the wearing of the rock can indicate water was at least regularly running through the pathways.

The pathways seem to be irregular along the sides - more like natural wear as opposed to surgical precision. Perhaps a natural pathway was present first and the locals worked it - for a particular function.

The design along the central column of the pathways is a repeated motif or theme. I am wondering whether the diamond shape is significant and why they are joined. Could be decorative but somehow I think the ancients used symbols for a specific reason. Whatever the continued diamond design represents I don't think the artists would have covered their work so they were visible at all times - also for a particular purpose. Just my thoughts.

Much Peace...

I haven't read all of the posts yet so pardon if this has been discussed already, but from an engineering standpoint, aside from possibly a mill of some kind, it reminds me of a giant forge. The areas for cooling (water) poured in. A "stamp" perhaps decorative, a ring for metals, staircase-like cutting down the side of the mountain for agriculture or as used by modern stone quarry. A last thing I notice about the circular shape cut out from the mountain top, it is beveled in more the further down it's cut into the rock (cut at a slant - like a spinning top pointed down). In the military we, or rather our special Ops guys, will cut a similar shape into the snow and loop a rope around it before lowering one man down one end of the line. This could be used similarly here to pull large loads up the side of the mountain with just a rope and manpower. It acts like a "lock" as the rope around the cut-out is drawn tighter. Another tug on the rope, the load comes up a bit more, then "locked" in place again.

I'm curious if there there any mines nearby?
All I see is religious possibilities/astronomical, water collection, farming, and/or a forge/factory/quarry.
Just my two cents from a mechanical inventor's perspective.

Oh wait, right, ATS...
Well, then to stir up controversy:
In the video at 5:00, 5:12, and 5:28 it looks like a rocket or missile or sorts with the two circles in the place of the propulsion/flames.

reply to post by SLAYER69


That is what I thought when I saw the picture. Like a big mother ship or one of those ships in the Star Wars/Star treck adventures.

Excellent post OP. Again, very interesting. The water theory is good, however I cannot get my mind away from a giant space ship/ or replication of some sort of craft. The spaces on the side look like windows with interconnecting structures; and the track on the roof with the circular section look mechanical also. Its position high on top of the mountain is very interesting indeed.