"The Innocence of White People"

Originally posted by Gestas
And for those wondering I am not being racist I am just sick of being LABELED A RACIST BECAUSE OF MY RACE.

edit on 23-9-2012 by Gestas because: Racism.

That's funny, I'm 35, white, and I have NEVER been called a racist, never. I've never been called sexist, never been called homophobic (which would be hard, because I am gay lol).

I find this kind of reasoning that people are labeled as racist (or anything else) through no fault of their own complete BS. People are not assumed to be racist just because they are white, it is their actions and speech that define you to others. People don't look at you and say "he's white, he's a racist". They listen to what you say, how you debate, how you treat others.

And on the OP, very well done, excellent points presented perfectly.

I see we already have some of the "burn them all!!!!" crowd in here claiming that every Muslim is evil. This is what I fear - the propaganda of the right wing xenophobe making a more critical social instability out of this.

Very interesting and a great piece of reflection on a number of issues.
Although as an American he speaks from a certain identity, and while it's noble of him to refer to the history of US slavery, he could also examine the Muslim part of his identity on slavery.

It seems a bit one-sided to only examine the white part of his identity for slavery and not his Muslim part:

There is no date on the calendar for me, as a white person, to demonstrate that I have properly reflected on slavery and the generations of inequality and naked white sadism between the slave era and our own unjust present; we could potentially have such a day, but often turn it into shallow self-congratulation.

(See OP post for the link.)

Do Muslims have a date on their calendar to remember their role in the slave trade?
Slavers who were Muslims were an important link in the African slave trade, and theologically slavery remains controversial in Islam, which is still not always abolitionist, and slavery is said to continue in some African countries today.
en.wikipedia.org...
www.answering-islam.org...

Barbaray slavery once enslaved up to a million Europeans, and also some Americans.
researchnews.osu.edu...

The slaves that went East via Zanzibar are an often forgotten history, and in Pakistan and India there are African diaspora communities today descended from the Arab/Portuguese slave trade, many of whom currently live as lower caste Hindu untouchables (the Siddis).
An interesting documentary on the impoverished Siddis in India today:


A duel conversation between his identities on that issue could have been useful in making a case for ending all slavery.

I'm glad he refers to "heterosexism" as another problem to interrogate, and that is also surely not only an issue for white American males.

Academically speaking these issues in white male patriarchy are often addressed, but are either ignored or raised apologetically when referring to Islam and other cultures, and there's certainly also a danger of making white males feel uniquely evil.

While it's great that he unpacks these issues as a white male, they should be unpacked everywhere.
He seems to write as a response to an upsurge in Islamophobia particularly, so his focus here is understandable, but it could lead to further debate on a wider global scale.

reply to post by Sergeant Stiletto


I fail to see where "White People" fit into this equation. Do you mean Christians? Caucasians? Or Americans as a whole? Because last time I checked, Americans were many different races....and many different religions.

So where do "White people" fit here?

Exactly....

It seems people (or ignorant, moronic people) only get mad when those "Damn Moslems" (sic) do something or burn some flags.


People are just stupid and ATS is absolute proof of that.

Just look at the hatred that idiots spew on every thread.

*sigh*

reply to post by purplemer



That was spot on mate

You need to stop blaming white people and grow up,

People of all races can commit murder, greed etc. Stop being a racist.

Money,greed,hatred are the cause of violence...In Northern Ireland most people dont want the violence but you are forced to hate the other guy so you are separated in the schools/neighbourhoods but the higher ups make the money deals aka priests/politicians and keep it going. The Americans and the British have a hand in it too by funding IRA/UDA.................Humans are violent and right now America because it is an empire it wants what it wants. The muslims in the middle east have a deep seeded hatred for the US so they just used the film and cartoons as an excuse. Plus their leaders just like in Ireland make money and keep it going. The Muslims in the states haven't protested because they are out of that environment to have that hatred.....Just like a white guy going into a black area in Alabama sure there will be some that wouldn't care but there will be some that will have that deep hatred just because of the skin colour and vice versa.

This is years and years in the making and I bet that Americans and British have hand in backing these extreme groups which keeps this turmoil going and then broadcasting it and making people hate Muslim's ....The same M.O all the time.

Just wondering also where that leaves people like President Obama, Colin Powell, Condie Rice and so many others who are not white or male, both in the administrations, the armies and even in the various countries and guerrilla/terrorist groups who contribute to the loss of life.

I hope they all too will make a moral inventory of their racial and historical past.

Will this white male admission of complex guilt be an example for all others to follow?
Maybe, but usually not.
Such confessionals are not really encouraged or applauded in other groups.

So well done to the writer of the article in the OP as a white male.
At least that aspect of identity is willing to be honest.
I'd love to say well done to his Muslim identity too, but unfortunately it doesn't admit to any wrong doing from that historical identity.
So well done for the honesty as an American white male.

Similar feelings of guilt, for example, by Arab males for their role in "heterosexism" and the slavery of "unbelievers" would make for a great global debate.

So would the many positions of Africans in world power, especially African Americans, and since a black presidency in the US is a fact, to deny their role in power amounts to willful blindness.

But it's understandable that most converts want to hide certain things and stress others.

When questioning things like "heterosexism" I think he would run into trouble eventually in many Muslim ruled countries, but I'd like to see how he continues his path because he's obviously a great person. Was the liberal face he put on Islam sustainable or just temporarily strategic? We'll see.

And just like all Muslim's are portrayed to be terrorists this thread is portraying all white people as murders or blood hungry when really that's not true. It's not that America wants to kill it's that America is blind going along with whatever the government says is right. I'm not saying that America is innocent (because it's not) but this is just another example of a close minded thread.

reply to post by RealSpoke

But it is true, if anyone is going to be all paranoid about terrorism in the USA they would be afraid of white males who are right wing, as they commit the highest rates of terrorism here.

Every time I see one of them good ol boys drive by in a pickup with gun rack in back of the window and whistling dixie country music blaring i have to admit... i am little unnerved and become paranoid.

And im a Caucasian


They scare the crap out of me

Muslims are quasi scary jk

reply to post by Sergeant Stiletto


Eloquent, beautiful, heart-wrenching,...and oh-so-true. We have ALWAYS been our own worst enemy.

During the Civil War more than 800,000 US troops died. That's more than in ALL OTHER US MILITARY ACTIONS OF THE 20TH CENTURY COMBINED. You know what the kicker is? There were also TWO MILLION CIVILIAN casualties during the Civil War.

The lesson? NOBODY is as good at killing Americans as other Americans are. The "terrorists" couldn't possibly DREAM of being as ruthless, effective, and efficient as we are at killing ourselves.

Every single problem, conflict, and crisis that the US has faced in the Middle East with the exception of The First and Second Barbary Wars in 1804-05 and 1815 respectively can find it's root and origin in US and/or British interventionism in the region.

...and I'm not sure we can really count the Barbary "Wars". We lost 35 troops in the first one and 4 troops in the second one. Indeed, the only reason they are hardly noteworthy is because of the First Barbary War ended with the Treaty of Tripoli in which John Adams and Congress both represented that the US was always and forever a nation of secular humanists and was not by any stretch of the imagination to be mistaken for being a nation founded on christianity.

....and in about 4 seconds I'll have someone responding to this who tries to tell me that George Washington used to go bowling with Jesus and that the Crusades never happened.

Originally posted by Ancient Champion
You need to stop blaming white people and grow up,

People of all races can commit murder, greed etc. Stop being a racist.

True. Yet...history doesn't lie. NOBODY has EVER become so incredibly skilled and efficient and brutally killing innocent civilians than those who are descended from white europeans.

For every Pol Pot, you have two or three cases of a Stalin, Hitler, Vlad the Impaler, Torquemada, Colonel Chivington.

Sure...all races CAN murder, kill, maim, and torture...but the smart money bets on white westerners as being the one's who WILL do so.

Originally posted by Tardacus
we are big hypocrites we murder more of our own people every 3 months right here in america than were killed on 9/11, where is the outrage over that? where are the memorials and moments of silence for these people.

In 2010 there were 12,996 murders committed in america,that`s over 1,000 murders a month, where is the outrage?

www.fbi.gov...

Yep. From 1964 to 1973 we lost 58,000 American lives in the Vietnam War. During that same nine year period 168,000 of us were murdered by our fellow citizens in violent crimes and premeditated crimes.

...and those were "THE GOOD OL' DAYS".

reply to post by Sergeant Stiletto


Intriguing. Thank you.

I'll check back later.

reply to post by manna2


???

I didn't blame anyone. I said if people are going to be paranoid about terrorist attacks they should be afraid of the home grown ones. Whens the last time a Muslim attacked the USA?

You seem to be projecting.

Originally posted by milominderbinder

Originally posted by Ancient Champion
You need to stop blaming white people and grow up,

People of all races can commit murder, greed etc. Stop being a racist.

True. Yet...history doesn't lie. NOBODY has EVER become so incredibly skilled and efficient and brutally killing innocent civilians than those who are descended from white europeans.

For every Pol Pot, you have two or three cases of a Stalin, Hitler, Vlad the Impaler, Torquemada, Colonel Chivington.

Sure...all races CAN murder, kill, maim, and torture...but the smart money bets on white westerners as being the one's who WILL do so.

And all the murder that has happened in the Middle East since the beginning doesn't count? This is nothing but a race baiting thread with the purpose of spreading hate.

reply to post by Ancient Champion


That's what you got out of this thread?

It was a commentary on perspective. The defensiveness from some in the replies here kind of proves the author's point, in general the U.S. has a very narrow view of injustice.

Originally posted by RealSpoke
reply to post by manna2

 

???

I didn't blame anyone. I said if people are going to be paranoid about terrorist attacks they should be afraid of the home grown ones. Whens the last time a Muslim attacked the USA?

You seem to be projecting.

edit on 24-9-2012 by RealSpoke because: (no reason given)

Not much to say about that response. Do you see a boogey man over here?