What equipment is required to hear G. Lake security chatter?

reply to post by Zaphod58


Fair enough.
I stand corrected.
Carry on.

This was pretty much covered in a thread about a week ago.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

I simply don't know where to start with all the misinformation in this thread.

If you're anywhere within radio contact, air support will hit you like a bolt of lightning.

Groom security does not interact with the tourists. I believe getting hit by air security would be considered interacting with the tourists. If you don't cross the border, all security does is watch you. They will run your plates.

Yes, you do need a police scanner of sorts, but don't think you're just gonna scan their frequencies willy nilly. Im sure they are heavily encrypted, there are some encryption systems so advanced that they encrypt every single transmission in any given session with a different algorithm each time the talk button is pressed.

Sigh. Encryption is DES on an EDACS trunk radio system. The encryption doesn't change with every transmission. I have no idea how often they change the key.

The idea that a simple police scanner could work, is a bit skewed. The frequencies that the Police use range from, 0.3 - 465 (I believe it is Khz, but I may be wrong) where as the military is going to be running at frequencies higher than these, which a normal scanner shouldn't be able to pick up.

The EDACS trunk radio system uses the federal UHF band, basically 406MHz to 420MHz. These frequencies are easily covered by conventional scanners, but you can't get past the encryption.

A scanner can also pick up air traffic control, which uses similar frequencies as the military does, without any modifications. HF, and UHF frequencies are different. UHF frequencies are for short range communications, and are what are used by police, air traffic control, and the military. HF radios are used for transoceanic communications, and generally require a pretty big radio set (at least when I was operating a radio net they did). As for the frequencies, they can be found online.

Well this is basically correct. ATC uses VHF and UHF frequencies. The military used to be UHF, but post 9/11 they put VHF radios in military aircraft (as well as UHF) so that they can communicate to civilian aircraft. Note the military VHF band is extended a bit past the civilian VHF band. [Civilian aircraft can't talk to Blackjack.] There is no need for HF to be used on the range, though for training, they use a few HF frequencies. The range frequencies can be found here:
www.inplanesight.org...
This list only contains frequencies that I have heard, trusted radio monitors have heard and given to me, or government documents. I do not troll the internet for frequencies and list them since often people confuse Nellis with other sites such as Edwards or China Lake. There are many Nellis lists on the internet, but they contain quite a bit of crap.

There are lists of the EDACS trunk radio frequencies, most of which are correct. I don't bother to list them since they can't be monitored. You can do traffic analysis on the trunk control channels, but that is about it.

Again, they can't stop you from listening, except to encrypt them, which is what I said to begin with. But I have heard of Area 51 radio signals being picked up in Las Vegas. They were faint, but understandable. The radios in question generally are blocked by line of sight, such as mountains, but they CAN occasionally be picked up at much longer range than expected.

Also correct. The Janets certainly can be heard in Vegas, even after the Nellis ATC to Groom Lake approach handoff. In addition, Nellis and the DOE use multiple transmitter sites around the range and near Nellis so that the base stations (ground) can be heard in Vegas. The DOE as far as I know only "repeats" from the Apex transmitter site. ["Repeats" in quotes because the signals actually get to the remote transmitters using a radio link backbone.] Nellis has multiple sites well outside the range, such as Mt. Ella.

Note that there are three trunk radio systems around the Nellis range plus Vegas. The EDACs system used by Groom has a repeater at Nelllis, sites around range, and a repeater at Base Camp. The DOE and Nellis AFB share a P-16 Motorola trunk system with sites in the range, at Nellis AFB, Creech, and the DOE facility in North Las Vegas. There is a new P-25 Motorola system slowly being set up around the range. I have only heard the DOE on it. Nellis has been buying P-25 radios with AES-256 encryption.

The P-25 trunk radio system interferes with the P-16 (a few channels overlap). I believe the P-16 and most likely the EDACS system will be shut down eventually and only the P-25 system will be used. That is just a guess, but I don't see the DOE using a P-16 and P-25 system simultaneously forever. The EDACS system is very old.

There are 2 380MHz Navy "emergency" systems that can be heard in the range.

In today's military, there really is no need for HF at all. We would fly from like North Dakota to Hawaii and use the HF on the way and pick up a guy in Alaska.

But hell a KC-135 is 50 plus years old and it has the new satcom's 1 and 2 and data link. I'm willing to be they don't use the HF much anymore.

Edit: I guess I should say that HF is still probably required for over the pond flights. I know it used to be. Even for commercial traffic if I'm not mistaken.

reply to post by boomer135


We used to sit on Hickam and talk to people in Australia, when conditions were right. It didn't happen often, but occasionally it would happen.

reply to post by Zaphod58


The best I got was taking off out of Colombia and flying back to North Dakota. Instead of Puerto Rico, we got Alaska. lol

Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by 46ACE

 

Again, they can't stop you from listening, except to encrypt them, which is what I said to begin with. But I have heard of Area 51 radio signals being picked up in Las Vegas. They were faint, but understandable. The radios in question generally are blocked by line of sight, such as mountains, but they CAN occasionally be picked up at much longer range than expected.

I agree: I figure if they can throw it out there I have every right to find it and demod it.

Well I've never tried; perhaps you were in a perfect spot to pick up a reflection. interesting...perhaps from a security patrol vehicle on a ridge some where? Believe me, I'm Not saying " it didn't happen.."

And Somebody here knows a hell of a lot more about"trunked" radio than I do. .

reply to post by 46ACE


VHF comms are subject to knife edge diffraction. When you hear planes on the ground at Groom on my scanner recordings, they are probably being heard from knife edge diffraction, though I could also be hearing reflections. Most of the recording I make don't have line of sight to the ground, but I know the hot spots around the border where to monitor.

If you read the NTIA redbook, there are frequencies in the federal band that are allocated for simplex use and non-trunked use. The NTS uses frequencies other than their P-16 and now P-25 trunk system. Not often, but I have a recording of an exercise they did over simplex IIRC. [I'd have to dig it up. I didn't do the recording but it from a trusted source.] So if you heard odd voices in the federal band in Vegas, it could be from the range.However, for this to be a reality, assuming your were bandscanning, you would have had to lock out all trunk channels.

There is also simplex use in Vegas on the federal band. I never did identify the use, but it sounded like the FPS (Federa Protection Service) handling some transportation logistics. Nothing very exciting.

Note that the IRAC (frequency listing for fed/military) is very FOUO, but the band plan is published in the NTIA Red Book, so you know where to listen for what type of comm, but don't know the assigned user. Frequency management is just that: managed. The rules are well defined.

reply to post by boomer135


The military still uses HFDL. That is a HF version of ACARS. In fact, civilians planes use it too, and not just over the pond. Why they use HFDL over land is something I don't know, other than perhaps the route doesn't have VHF ACARS handy.

I have mentioned this before, but you can decode HFDL with PC-HFDL.
www.chbrain.dircon.co.uk...
I bought a copy, but I think it is free now. It works fine. It even runs on linux under wine. I haven't tried HD-ALE, but the DoD uses that too. The above link has a link to HF-ALE. There are also decoders for ACARS:
www.acarsd.org...
This program also does ACARS, plus some other stuff we can't talk about:
www.gsm-antennes.nl...
Tonopah is a major hub for ACARS for aircraft going to the bay area. Vegas is somewhat the same for LA, but there are more places than just Vegas to do ACARS on that route. I have never caught any military aircraft around Vegas using ACARS. Not the Janets either. But I have only limit windows of monitoring. Unfortunately there is no one in Vegas looking for these digital modes on a full time basis, or if they are, they aren't talking.

The DoD still has HF-GCS
zomobo.net...
Most of the sites are run remotely. I haven't monitored HF-GCS in a while, so I don't know how much traffic goes out there. The link above has audio recordings of EAMS and similar stuff that makes up the routine HF traffic.

How do you even KNOW its "CAMO-DUDES"...when you cant see them?

And here on the border of Canada we have several large airbases, Border Patrol, Coast Guard, Homeland Security...and we a lot of other stuff...and always have had.

But....by your description? Camo-dudes? Thats an extremely unverifiiable description. ie: just like calling "UFOs"-spaceships from other planets....or "Aliens"-beings from outer space. These things are so general that you'd have to be more specific...especially on radio...who may SOUND-LIKE "Camo-Dudes. You wouldnt even know.

PS...most of the list above have some form of "camo-dudes", so Ill go back to my original observations...WHO do you mean?.There must be a zillion frequencies each one above uses.

reply to post by mysterioustranger


Well we all know who the cammo dudes are. At least most of us. So if were listening to the radio and we here "hey check out checkpoint three. possible trespassers". Chances are they are cammo dudes.

Originally posted by mysterioustranger
How do you even KNOW its "CAMO-DUDES"...when you cant see them?

And here on the border of Canada we have several large airbases, Border Patrol, Coast Guard, Homeland Security...and we a lot of other stuff...and always have had.

But....by your description? Camo-dudes? Thats an extremely unverifiiable description. ie: just like calling "UFOs"-spaceships from other planets....or "Aliens"-beings from outer space. These things are so general that you'd have to be more specific...especially on radio...who may SOUND-LIKE "Camo-Dudes. You wouldnt even know.

PS...most of the list above have some form of "camo-dudes", so Ill go back to my original observations...WHO do you mean?.There must be a zillion frequencies each one above uses.

Well, I'm not the one describing here. Camo dude is a slang term referring to the anonymus security guards of area 51 that patrol the outer perimeters. I'm talking about the men in the pick-up trucks that watch you from a hill.

reply to post by 1lionexPro

I wear Camo myself 1/2 the time working...and drive a white, a dark grey and unmarked black patrol response vehicles for a known multi-level agency....and Im not giving away any of it by clarifying that. Friend? That is my point

All the mentioned agencies here at the US-Canadian border...wear some form of camo-all blck, black grey, fatigue-green ...and watch you from a distance...Especially the Border Patrol. And they drive white pickups...

He was asking about the Great Lakes area security frequencies and the equipment needed...and there are many..so I assumed he didnt mean Area 51.

Of late here on ATS...these 3 words seem to be "absolutes" by current usage and not by definition:

The "CAMO-DUDES" Area 51-DULCE etc...not hunters deer-hunting, but "secret police-surveillance officers
The "UFOs"- spaceships from outer space and not OBJECTS FLYING that are UNIDENTIFIED
The "ALIENS" from outer and inner space and not my neighbors whom are Pakistani Legal immigrants-"ALIENS"

reply to post by boomer135

You are wrong. This example from me at work yesterday. This regarding incoming customs ie: CTPAT inspections from Canada.

"Unit 1 to base? Im 10-7 at Gate 12. In 10 Ill be enroute to Gate 6, Pump House 6...AA-24 (APPLE-APPLE D 24).
Base? My ETA is 60 seconds and Ill be 10-8 at that location."

*Base-"Copy."

"Base? Ill be interacting with blue travel trailer at Gate 7 near the main entrance while enroute to 6.
Units 3 and 5? Can you and Unit 9 meet me at ER g 7? Unknown occupants transporting 6- of 10."

*Base-" Copy that. Units 1, 3, 5 and 9 responding to ER g 7."

"Yes? Copy that. 10-4 thank you. Unit 1 Enroute"

So? "Camo dude" or not? And from where? Representing whom? My point...it is unknown...and would be to the OP.

reply to post by mysterioustranger


Area 51 is also called Groom Lake. I was referring to that.

I live in Canada too btw.

reply to post by 1lionexPro

Howdy neighbor! Its all good. I was trying to make a point.

There are a lot of super-secret agencies around here..not so much secret....that are everywhere here....and Im employed by one of them...and yes, even I have to watch myself....

Whatever is in our cards for the future...Im in the thick of things.....then lastly? When Im done doing my part? Theyll put me on the trains last....and Ill just be another number like everyone else.

I am committed to our society to help in times of trouble and wont mind helping even dying for you all..because I stand for something..and Ill not complain....

We should all volunteer and have a say or influence in our future...whatever may come. We could use you too...!

Peace...MS

Seriously....volunteer for your own communities. There are CERT teams around the country (Community Emergency Response Teams) made up of community members, trained by FEMA and DHS to help in times of trouble...when our resources are stretched thin.

Get involved. Ask me how.....Here are some for you to paste into your browsers....Peace

*FEMA IS (Independent Study Courses) training.fema.gov...
*READY.GOV www.ready.gov...
*CITIZENS CORP: www.citizenscorp.cert.gov...*
*ER foods: www.cert-kits.com...*

How to keep foods safe: www.foodsafety.gov...

reply to post by boomer135

They wouldnt say that. Everything on-radio is military-security based lingo...and not like you stated.

Hence, my point...

reply to post by mysterioustranger


Camo Dudes is a term specific to Groom Lake Security. Lots of people wear camo, but only certain people have reached dude status. Thus the term Camo Dude should only be used in regard to Groom Lake border security.

In the old Desert Rat newsletters, Glenn Campbell (Groom Lake researcher, not the singer) transcribes some camo dude talk from the pre-encrypted days. It sounded less than professional to me.

Without hearing the actual radio traffic, I am 100% certain that when the cocktail waitress from the Vegas strip club was on the hill near Coyote Summit, naked from the waist down and irrigating the thirsty desert soil, the term "female subject" was not the operative descriptor.
www.lazygranch.com...

Originally posted by mysterioustranger
reply to post by boomer135

 

They wouldnt say that. Everything on-radio is military-security based lingo...and not like you stated.

Hence, my point...

Look I get what your saying. Were just saying that camo dudes are the description given to the groom lake security guards that are in the pickup truck. It's a known term. Yes there are many people who wear camo. I dont know if the term "camo dudes" was created on ATS or not, but I heard of that term before I even joined ATS. So when the OP asks what frequency the camo dudes are on, we all know he means groom lake security, especially when it's posted on the Area 51 and Other Facilities forum.

And I know it would be military-based lingo. I just dumbed it down for the masses who havent heard military lingo before. I spent six years in the Air Force flying. I've heard just about every kind of lingo the military uses. I was just trying to prove a point that if you heard that on the radio, it was PROBABLY the camo dudes. Even if you were standing around groom somewhere and heard the radio example you used with the CTPAT inspections from Canada, we would assume it's groom lake security, aka camo dudes.

Also, I do agree with you about the terms UFO, and Alien. You make good points about that. But the term "camo dudes" is given to the guards at groom, and properly used on ATS, especially this specific forum.

reply to post by boomer135


I think Glen Campbell or one of the Interceptor's coined the phrase camo dude. Everyone interested in Groom Lake should read the old Desert Rat newsletters. Some of the stuff in the newsletters are inside jokes, like the ETs speak Hungarian or Larry King getting a brain implant at Nellis AFB. [I think that story is due to Kings plane landing at Nellis once.] The newsletters also talk about the characters that used to hang around the area, like J-Rod/Jarod.

www.ufomind.com...

I think today the Groom Lake border is most famous for Geocaches. I am partially to blame since I put up some of the oldest caches in the area. The motels certainly appreciate the business.