The Accusations Are True ATS - I Do Have An Agenda And I Have Been Manipulating You! My Confession.

reply to post by elmoastro


Well stated.

The ego is the source of a lot of confusion. The subject of this thread is extremely pertinent in the realms of emotion and ego.

It's hard to accept the reflection you see when it is so different from what you expected.

Originally posted by UnifiedSerenity
I am reminded of Sun Tzu manipulating the women into being good soldiers. He basically made the challenge to the Emperor that he could make anyone or any group a great soldier. So, a bunch of pampered young women were brought out and this group included the very pampered princess. When Sun Tzu gave an order the women ignored him and the Emperor thought he has won the argument. Sun Tzu went over and killed the princess. The next order he gave garnered complete compliance. He manipulated them into doing as they were told. Now, granted, they did not ask to be soldiers and one could argue that was wrong to conscript them into this activity. I will simply point out that by complying they lived through the experience and that might be a valid option. Some things are worth dying for, and some things just are not.

I disagree that yours is an example where manipulation was used for the good of the target. Sun Tzu won many battles for his king, but in the end he realized that his emperor was not the worthy king he thought him to be and cast himself into exile. Sun Tzu, under the false impression that his king was worthy of being king, manipulated people into becoming soldiers in this king's army. Sun Tzu eventually realized this was a bad king, those he manipulated had been manipulated into making the same mistake the manipulator, Sun Tzu, had made. No "manipulator" is smart enough to determine where his target should go or who his target should be and thus is not smart enough to be a good manipulator.

Edit: Until you know everything there is to know you will not be a good emperor or manipulator.

reply to post by ZiggyMojo


So you are not going to explain?

This is not us both. It is you. Your reasoning behind, what you perceive as the point of the thread, is based on a logical fallacy.

You don't get the point.

But you starred and flagged it, and I didn't.

Besides, it's not very hard to hard to create a thread that confuses people into subordination. Especially if the people are weakminded and proud.

Love the contradictory plottwists. First a bit of fear mongering, then create some sympathy. Some nice catchphrases. Seek the common denomenator. Then say something completely opposite and then back again, and end with something memorable, all the while not saying anything of real substance at all, yet always promoting this grim reality where it's nothing but agents out to get you, and the horrors of renditions to Guantanomo Bay and stuff.

The state of affairs is worrying, but as soon you start to believe that reality you are one step closer to it.

i like satire.
but i dont like like satire that seems like a triple bluff double negative that confused even itself.
i assumed the op was satire, but 'over egged the pudding' i think is the phrase.

or maybe just some deluded person.

reply to post by MikeDeVries


Here is a the definition and several examples of logical fallacies.

www.logicalfallacies.info...
carm.org...

Please read.

You're guilty of a few of these. I'm not sure where my comments fall in. This comment might just because I'm discrediting you.

Secondly. I gave you my explanation for everything you asked for. You don't like what I have said and keep asking the same questions. The answer and explanation I have given won't change.

I did star and flag the OP. I was manipulated to. You were manipulated not to. Your conditioning has told you that giving a star and flag would degrade your stance of this thread having value. My conditioning moved me to give a star and flag because I found value in it. You can argue these silly semantics of stars and flags all day.. It doesn't change subjective ideas or opinions.

One more time. You asked for my opinion. I gave it to you. If you can't accept it, it isn't my duty to make you.. nor do I care to. You see my opinion as wrong, I see your opinion as a piece of my own.

Good Day.

Originally posted by Kino321
or maybe just some deluded person.

I'm voting for that, though, of course, my vote has been manipulated. In any case, stroking your own ego in public will get you laughed at or arrested most places. It may feel good to the stroker, but Ewwww! Gross to the onlooker.

Of course, this is ATS, so no arrests will be forthcoming, but to claim the ability to manipulate in this venue is not exactly going to win you any medals. ATS, where chemtrails are real, the end of the world is nigh, the moon landings were a hoax, evey light in the sky carries aliens from the Pleiades, and the Illuminati killed Bruce Lee. Not the most discerning bunch.

reply to post by ZiggyMojo

I did start and flag the OP. I was manipulated to. You were manipulated not to.

You are hilarious!

So if something like this was the point of the thread, what does it prove? What is so impressive about it?

Is this not what happens with every thread, with every exchange of thought?

It holds no value.

That is your logical fallacy.

Yet you thought it was something profound and flagged it.

If this is Heff's point, then the whole premise is like I said completely redundant.

One more time. You asked for my opinion. I gave it to you. If you can't accept it, it isn't my duty to make you.. nor do I care to. You see my opinion as wrong, I see your opinion as a piece of my own.

Since you were the loudest most dedicated advocate of the OP, it asked you what the point was in your eyes to show you how it was illogical.

Do you really think I was inquiring about your personal opinion?

I am one who is hard to manipulate (I think) as I consider myself a master manipulator, however with saying that I can also say that I don't like other master manipulators I have encountered, simply because most have an evil intent.

Having an evil intent when manipulating is where the line has to be drawn. Im more of an empathetic person and can read people... their vibes come at me immediately.

People are gullible and sometimes open minded to such an extent they will believe anything.

I think the thread is cool and not sure many should take it as serious .... its just a thread.

Originally posted by Symbiot

Originally posted by UnifiedSerenity
I am reminded of Sun Tzu manipulating the women into being good soldiers. He basically made the challenge to the Emperor that he could make anyone or any group a great soldier. So, a bunch of pampered young women were brought out and this group included the very pampered princess. When Sun Tzu gave an order the women ignored him and the Emperor thought he has won the argument. Sun Tzu went over and killed the princess. The next order he gave garnered complete compliance. He manipulated them into doing as they were told. Now, granted, they did not ask to be soldiers and one could argue that was wrong to conscript them into this activity. I will simply point out that by complying they lived through the experience and that might be a valid option. Some things are worth dying for, and some things just are not.

I disagree that yours is an example where manipulation was used for the good of the target. Sun Tzu won many battles for his king, but in the end he realized that his emperor was not the worthy king he thought him to be and cast himself into exile. Sun Tzu, under the false impression that his king was worthy of being king, manipulated people into becoming soldiers in this king's army. Sun Tzu eventually realized this was a bad king, those he manipulated had been manipulated into making the same mistake the manipulator, Sun Tzu, had made. No "manipulator" is smart enough to determine where his target should go or who his target should be and thus is not smart enough to be a good manipulator.

Edit: Until you know everything there is to know you will not be a good emperor or manipulator.

edit on 21-9-2012 by Symbiot because: (no reason given)

Quite frankly, I think you are more predisposed to a certain viewpoint of Sun Tzu than to actually think about what I was saying. The point was he manipulated the group and proved his point to the Emperor. I was not debating the issue of was it an honorable situation, but simply showing how manipulation can be done, and how it might or might not be in one's best interest to be thus motivated to comply. Maybe they all could have turned Lakota for the moment and said, "Hoka Hey" which means, "It's a good day to die".

Though I doubt you will comprehend my reply, so I leave it here, and am quite sure you will argue with a fence post.

reply to post by UnifiedSerenity


Would it be in their best interest to comply? It depends on ones viewpoint I suppose, but life as a servant to bad emperor and ignorant general is a life worse than death in my opinion. For the record I am not arguing with you, simply stating my viewpoint.

Can I ask you, whenever someone disagrees with you are they arguing with a fence post? What you've just done is a form of manipulation in my opinion, you are attempting to ridicule someone into not stating their opposing viewpoint. If the two of us disagree that is fine, I'm sure that you are an intelligent person and I'm not trying to insult that, simply posing my point of view. Should I not pose my point of view for fear of your emotional retribution?

"You can fool some of the people some of the time, part of the people part of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.." (Honest Abe)

Originally posted by MikeDeVries
reply to post by ZiggyMojo

 

Since you were the loudest most dedicated advocate of the OP, it asked you what the point was in your eyes to show you how it was illogical.

Do you really think I was inquiring about your personal opinion?

edit on 21-9-2012 by MikeDeVries because: (no reason given)

You asked me to explain it in my own words. Obviously nobody knows the OP's true intentions so this is a question that is conducive of an answer formed from opinion or theory.

You didn't show me how anything was illogical. All you did was repeat what I said and then say it's illogical and you aren't impressed. Just because it happens all the time does not mean everyone is aware that they are technically being manipulated.

It also lends itself to the point of the OP. That people accuse others of "manipulating" or having an agenda.. When in fact everyone does. The definition of manipulation has been given a negative stigma. Manipulation, whether good or bad, is an individual interpretation.


The OP said he was going to manipulate us. Said he has in the past. He showed images to evoke emotion, and presented ideas to do the same. Some of them possible lies while others truths. The responses he received for all different facets of his post are evidence of how easily you all were manipulated. You were hell bent on the fact that he said he previously manipulated people. How do you know that to be true? He could have purposely manipulated you to believe that.

He said he had PTSD and was a normal guy. People commented and had pretty brash responses to that. Some going as far to try and discredit him simply because he said he had PTSD.

He set the OP up in a manner, that no matter how you interpret it and respond.. He can say he manipulated you. He could have done it quicker, in one sentence yes.. But it wouldn't have had the same effect and it probably wouldn't cover the T&C. By creating several facets, he opened the doors for interpretation and manipulated a discussion that was broken into those facets. Many of the facets and discussions happening in the thread had nothing to do with manipulation, but were more or less arguments over semantics and details. Some of them were arguments over whether what he did is ethical, or if people agreed with his actions. BUT.. None of his statements in his OP were verified or proven beyond his word.. So any one of those statements could have been intended manipulation to create discourse.

Yes it happens all the time. It's a fact of life.

What many don't realize is how hard it is to differentiate between people intentionally or malevolently manipulating you, or just passively manipulating you.

Did you read all of the comments inferring that Heff was "Delusional" or "egotistical" etc. etc.?

Well, those are the responses he hoped to receive. He portrayed himself as doing something bad.. Even though he may not have, in order to prove the point that people have emotional responses to things. Which is manipulation.

He also showed pictures to evoke emotion.. I'm sure they worked on some.

He got stars and flags by manipulating us sure.. But did he not manipulate you into the opposite? Because you think you realize what he was doing and therefore chose to NOT give him S&F as a sign of your disapproval? You took his statements at face value and had an emotional reaction?

Thats the social experiment of it. You have willingly allowed yourself to be a guinea pig.

We all have been manipulated. Very easily. The thread is meant to make you think. Maybe it will wake a few people up to the idea.

So this truly will be my last post in response to you. I don't care if I've changed your opinion or not. I was re-hashing my take on this whole thing.

this thread is a perfect example of the definition of dramatic irony.

In dramatic irony, the author causes a character to speak or act erroneously, out of ignorance of some portion of the truth of which the audience is aware. In other words, the audience knows the character is making a mistake, even as the character is making it. This technique highlights the importance of a particular truth by portraying a person who is strikingly unaware of it.

wiki link

Psychology is fun but theirs a thin line between manipulation and psychopathy.

Sorry OP but try as you may even your most wile 'manipulations' would be lost on me as even the post itself is an unimpressive manipulative tactic.
Not dazzled OP.
My reply to the OP is the same reply that Diogenes offered Alexander...

THE TRUE STORY OF ALEXANDER & DIOGENES

Lord and Emperor of the entire known world, Alexander the Great came to visit the Greek philosopher Diogenes of Sinope who, long ago, had chosen to give up all pretense, false masquerades, emotional, personal and Spiritual dishonesty, worldly possessions and live in a bathtub outside. Alexander searched for the little man he had heard so much about and found him lying in the warmth of the day sunning himself.

Wanting to fulfill a wish for Diogenes Alexander introduced himself in all his splendor and asked him if there was any wish or desire that he could fulfill for him. Diogenes raised himself up a little when he saw so many people coming towards him he fixed his gaze upon Alexander. "Yes," said Diogenes, "there is something you can do for me." "Just name it" Alexander replied. "Please, stand off to the left a bit, you're blocking my sun." Diogenes replied.

Alexander was so struck with the courage, honesty and lack of pretense of Diogenes that reportedly he stated "But truly, if I were not Alexander, I would like to be Diogenes."

Diogenes was also famous for running around the city of Corinth in full daylight with a lit lantern, holding it up to the faces of strangers and when asked what he was doing he would reply "I'm looking for just ONE truly honest man."
I don't believe that he was ever successful in that quest.

Originally posted by elmoastro
this thread is a perfect example of the definition of dramatic irony.

In dramatic irony, the author causes a character to speak or act erroneously, out of ignorance of some portion of the truth of which the audience is aware. In other words, the audience knows the character is making a mistake, even as the character is making it. This technique highlights the importance of a particular truth by portraying a person who is strikingly unaware of it.

wiki link

This. And yes I am perpetuating the irony.

reply to post by ZiggyMojo

You asked me to explain it in my own words. Obviously nobody knows the OP's true intentions so this is a question that is conducive of an answer formed from opinion or theory.

Really, then why did you say this?

The point is, you among others.. Really do not grasp it. This was a very well thought out and well executed OP. It worked exactly the way it was supposed to.

This is why I asked you the question.

It seems like you claim to know the OP intentions right there. You say it worked. Yet when I ask you why it worked, you come up with a logical fallacy.

And now you claim noone knows his intentions. Flip flop much?

You didn't show me how anything was illogical

I did, what you think is the point of thread is in reality meaningless, and from that viewpoint it also didn't work.

. All you did was repeat what I said and then say it's illogical and you aren't impressed. Just because it happens all the time does not mean everyone is aware that they are technically being manipulated.

That is why I made the distinction between two types of manipulation. The type you are talking about is more of a semantics thing. If you interact with something you manipulate it. It is not something that needs to be pointed out because it is an intrinsic trait of interaction, is completely obvious and non relevant.

Making people aware of this is of no benefit whatsoever. It is beating a dead horse.

So if the thread is about that, it is meaningless.

If it is about the other type, then the OP might be a sociopath.

Take your pick.

Obviously nobody knows the OP's true intentions

So why are you so sure then?

The OP said he was going to manipulate us. Said he has in the past. He showed images to evoke emotion, and presented ideas to do the same. Some of them possible lies while others truths. The responses he received for all different facets of his post are evidence of how easily you all were manipulated.

No it is evidence of a natural flow of discussion and differing opinions to what was said. You really think that because he said that he was manipulating us in the beginning, that every post thereafter is somehow a testament of his master manipulation skills?

Again, you walked right into it. Who is you all? You just said he manipulated you too. Flip flop.

So he wins when people agree with him.

He wins when people don't agree with him.

What would have been the apprpriate response?

This is just silly.

Thats the social experiment of it. You have willingly allowed yourself to be a guinea pig.

This is just so.....

Then you can call any thread a social experiment, if people happen to read it it and respond to it, because they were manipulated into participating.

It just empty drivel.

The only ones really manipulated and mindraped are the ones that flagged the empty drivel.

"Ooh, a picture of a puppy...I feel warm and fuzzy.....Heff was right, were so easy to manipulate.....Star and Flag!"

I hope the OP will return and shed some light on things, it seems like you are in his head, and doing all the talking for him.

reply to post by lapi7


People have a tendency to loathe truth. They did not like reality so they created their own 'reality' and divided the world into sections, divided it's populace into factions. They did not like the freedom afforded by reality so they created their own laws and convinced the worlds populace, themselves, that these laws were real. The truth can get one into trouble because many fear it so, as in The Emperors New Clothes people hide it to avoid a punishment that awaits for uttering its existence.

Originally posted by Hefficide
reply to post by C0bzz

 

Wow c0bzz long time no see!

And you are correct - except the T&C quote you cited doesn't list manipulation, or discussions of it, as a violation!

~Heff

This is awesome news!!!

Hey everyone, ATS allows you to manipulate. Get on it.

Seriously though, Heff thanks for pointing out what most of us are acutely aware of in the big bad world.

This thread reminds me of something I read as a child graffitied on a wall. It resonated with me as it truly was manipulation that was out of my control. It said...

" if you read this you are a motherf$&ker"

As I grew up, being the strapping young lad I was / am, I commenced acting on what I apparently was since reading that manipulative message. I commenced MILF hunting as it was my preference now you see.

Anyhow, now as a parent and still strapping I might add again, and to manipulate you, if find myself still being an MF as my wife and I still like having fun.

I guess I always will be a MF since reading that.

Anyhow, has anyone mentioned Free Will yet?

I work closely with someone like you Heff, she tries all sorts of techniques to prove a point. She does life coaching as well to help folk change their ways and improve their crafts

She is a Very successful individual with all that power of suggestion, planting this and that response into people.

I like to piss her off too, because free will, which I will remind everyone, you have, is a beautiful thing. Manipulatorslike to think we are mindless drones and will jump as high as required on demand.

Not so much.

Anyway I thought this was a good thread to share this info with you. Again nice thread.


Shame on you ATS, allowing manipulators. Tsk

Originally posted by ZiggyMojo

Originally posted by elmoastro
this thread is a perfect example of the definition of dramatic irony.

In dramatic irony, the author causes a character to speak or act erroneously, out of ignorance of some portion of the truth of which the audience is aware. In other words, the audience knows the character is making a mistake, even as the character is making it. This technique highlights the importance of a particular truth by portraying a person who is strikingly unaware of it.

wiki link

This. And yes I am perpetuating the irony.

It appears that Heff has left the building. If he is done I suggest you two move on as well. It's getting very tedious with your "Mine is bigger than yours" argument here. Give it a rest.