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Iran Threatens to Hit Israel and U.S. Bases
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Originally posted by wujotvowujotvowujotvo
Drezden's point was that your post implied no US guilt.
He can imply all he wants. it just proves that he and probably now you haven't bothered to read the thread. I've posted verifiable facts and have admitted ---> US involvement.
What more do people want?
Why does it matter they were Russian-made?
Because before the US got involved Iraq was a Soviet lapdog.
Reference Cold War ME history.
If money used to purchase came from US? At that point it seemed to accept temporary defeat to objections against supporting Russia.
If you are interested in that aspect I'd research [again] the Cold War - Soviet/US competing interests in the ME.
You know about Lend-Lease program, don't you? That was a major point that US supported Russia.
Not that that's on topic but any other thread regarding WW-II that aspect is denied as well because many here believe the Soviets beat Germany and won WW-II all by their lonesome.
Never mind Japan.
edit on 19-9-2012 by SLAYER69 because: (no reason given)
reply to post by InhaleExhale
I never stated that iranians were suicide bombers.
However, it's a very well known fact that Iran supports those groups - like Hezbollah - with money, military training and equipment.
Source
Iran openly supports Hezbollah, it's not a secret.
They are part of the parliament, not the actual government. They occupy 12 - out of 128 - seats there, and they occupy another 2 seats in the Cabinet of Lebanon.
That is very far from being a part of the government. They are represented like many other parties are represented all around the world in parliaments.
I view those "other countries" as barbaric and inhumane when it comes to human rights. I will accept judgement and criticism of Israel from nations who can actually do better, and not from countries who hang and execute homosexuals, just to name an example.
In your previous reply to my post, you asked:
People can paint Hezbollah with all the pretty colors they want. The matter of fact is that Hezbollah was one of the first movements to use suicide bombers, and I won't even give you a source for that, do your own research for once.
If you can't understand what's the real difference, then it's also not worth debating it...
I will accept that kind of judgment from an Iraqi, not from you.
What Saddam Hussein did to his people for decades.
You're funny.
The best possible reason for Iran not doing what Iraq did, was the fact that the Iranian government, voluntarily, signed the NPT and the IAEA agreements, which state very clearly that the state in question will not, by any means, produce, purchase or even develop nuclear weapons.
Like I have stated so many times in this forums, if Iran wants to have a nuke, then they should LEAVE the NPT and the IAEA and face the consequences, like the big boys they claim to be.
Yeah we are not talking about the US we are talking about Iran, so how about supplying some evidence of claims that Iranians are suicide bombers that are sponsored by their government or that Iranian government are financing terrorism.
I never stated that iranians were suicide bombers.
However, it's a very well known fact that Iran supports those groups - like Hezbollah - with money, military training and equipment.
Also Hezbollah receives financial and political assistance, as well as weapons and training, from the Islamic Republic of Iran. The US estimates that Iran was giving Hezbollah about $60–$100 million per year in financial assistance but that assistance declined as other funding was secured, primarily from South America. Some estimates of Iran's aid are as high as $200-million annually.
Source
Iran openly supports Hezbollah, it's not a secret.
So some countries view Hezbollah as a terrorist organization yet they are now part of a elected government.
They are part of the parliament, not the actual government. They occupy 12 - out of 128 - seats there, and they occupy another 2 seats in the Cabinet of Lebanon.
That is very far from being a part of the government. They are represented like many other parties are represented all around the world in parliaments.
Other countries view the gov. of Israel or Mossad as a terrorist organization
I view those "other countries" as barbaric and inhumane when it comes to human rights. I will accept judgement and criticism of Israel from nations who can actually do better, and not from countries who hang and execute homosexuals, just to name an example.
Iran sends funds to Hezbollah.
In your previous reply to my post, you asked:
so how about supplying some evidence of claims (...) that Iranian government are financing terrorism.
People can paint Hezbollah with all the pretty colors they want. The matter of fact is that Hezbollah was one of the first movements to use suicide bombers, and I won't even give you a source for that, do your own research for once.
Basically how is this any different to the US funding Israel or any other country?
If you can't understand what's the real difference, then it's also not worth debating it...
Are the people of Iraq not terrorized by having a foreign military force in their country dropping bombs from planes, entering family homes to make sure no bad guys live there while having their M16 pointed at the mother and children on their knees in their front yard.
I will accept that kind of judgment from an Iraqi, not from you.
What is Terrorism?
What Saddam Hussein did to his people for decades.
You mean the chemical weapons the US supplied to Iraq in the 80s.
You're funny.
In violation of the Geneva Protocol of 1925, the Iraqi Army initiated two failed (1970–1974, 1974–1978) and one successful (1978–1991) offensive chemical weapons (CW) programs. President Saddam Hussein pursued the most extensive chemical program during the Iran-Iraq War (1980–1988), when he waged chemical warfare against his foe. He also used chemicals in 1988 in the Al-Anfal Campaign against his civilian Kurdish population and during a popular uprising in the south in 1991.
One good reason for Iran to do what you claim they have been doing since 2003 is because of what happened to Iraq.
The best possible reason for Iran not doing what Iraq did, was the fact that the Iranian government, voluntarily, signed the NPT and the IAEA agreements, which state very clearly that the state in question will not, by any means, produce, purchase or even develop nuclear weapons.
Like I have stated so many times in this forums, if Iran wants to have a nuke, then they should LEAVE the NPT and the IAEA and face the consequences, like the big boys they claim to be.
reply to post by GogoVicMorrow
How can you possibly know that?
If you would care to educate yourself on the realities of nuclear technology and power, you would notice that Iran isn't a victim by any stretch of imagination. The IAEA does help countries develop and use nuclear technology, they just have to follow the guidance and steps that the IAEA tells them to follow.
I also agree that making personal attacks is easier than doing research and actually using sources to back up your claims.
That's the thing. They would never be satisfied. They would make them halt forever.
How can you possibly know that?
If you would care to educate yourself on the realities of nuclear technology and power, you would notice that Iran isn't a victim by any stretch of imagination. The IAEA does help countries develop and use nuclear technology, they just have to follow the guidance and steps that the IAEA tells them to follow.
If you can't see that you are hopelessly bought into the western propaganda.
I also agree that making personal attacks is easier than doing research and actually using sources to back up your claims.
Hello all. There was a PowerPoint presentation made by some legitimate intelligence/defense analysis organization that was posted a few weeks ago in
one of these 'Iran War' threads detailing exactly what the US strategy would be. I believe it was ~50-60 slides. I tried to search for it, but have
come up empty as there are so many similar threads. If anyone could help me out, I would very much appreciate it as it was very informative and I
believe we should all take another look at it.
I agree we could all write a book with the amount of knowledge we have on the subject
Originally posted by VeritatisIgnotae
reply to post by Wonderer2012 I and many, many members on ATS could wirte a book on what has been going on lately with the entire world. But my only question is, is there another confirmed soure that say the same as the arrticle that the op has? Maybe a video from the confrence itself, because to be honest i dont trust a report about Iran coming formisraeli national news.
Originally posted by Drezden
The U.S. was aware that Iraq was using chemical weapons, and even after hearing of Iraq using chemical weapons on the kurds we did not stop supporting them
Originally posted by SLAYER69
That's a lie.
The US not only broke the story but protested the gassing....
It's extremely disappointing that you would use an argumentative fallacy like that. Just because U.S. people supplied the information, with U.S. media presenting it, and U.S. citizens protesting it.. doesn't change the fact that our GOVERNMENT (which we are discussing) continued to support Iraq.
Only 6 months after Saddam used chemical weapons on the kurds we sent him another billion dollars.
Gee Wiz I guess I really am a liar if Slayer says so.. quick everyone, star slayer's post and not bother to fact check what he's posting.
Originally posted by SLAYER69AGAIN
Yes the US was involved. Nobody here has denied US involvement. But that however seems to be the extent of peoples focus. Many here obviously don't to know or even care to research the whole story or who were the other main contributors were. There was plenty of blame to go around.
In other threads about this topic I have mentioned the contributions of other nations, particularly those in Europe, to Iraq's chemical weapons program. Believe me, I know. I don't hate the U.S. and think it's the only country doing bad things.. but we are discussing the U.S. government's involvement in this thread. We can't control what other countries are doing as Americans. That's why we need to focus on our own country and government.
Stop distracting from the topic, It's like a little kid pointing at someone else doing something bad to avoid talking about their own bad behavior.
Originally posted by SLAYER69
I haven't denied US involvement; I've even stated openly that twice already in this thread. Yet, you’ll still sit there and ignore the very real fact that they were exclusively using Soviet equipment [Provided by Russia]
If you mean "exclusively" by the dictionary definition then you are wrong. Not all of the equipment used by Iraq in the war was soviet equipment supplied by the soviets, but you already know this and choose to ignore it, and you are accusing me of doing the same thing?
Originally posted by SLAYER69
So does Iran, Syria, Israel, Pakistan, the Saudis, the Russians, The Chinese the UK etc etc etc...
Your point?
My point is we do not know the full extent of U.S. support of Iraq.
Originally posted by SLAYER69
I don't know how old are you or maybe too young to remember but the problem then as now is that people were saying it was a False flag so the US could take action.
I didn't say anything about it being a false flag, why are you even bring that up?
Originally posted by SLAYER69
Just so you and I are clear, I have never denied US involvement in such activities. I can freely admit they do, you on the other hand cannot handle the simple fact that Iran has blood on their hands as well just like everybody else and are not as pure white as the driven snow….
Why do you always put words in my mouth. I've never claimed Iran is a perfect beacon of humanitarianism and the most ethical and peaceful country on Earth. Especially right now Iran's government is very oppressive.
The only thing I'm arguing is that Iran has not done enough bad things to justify what the U.S. government has done to Iran over the last several decades.
edit on 9/23/2012 by Drezden because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by sonnny1
reply to post by SLAYER69
And this is WHY you get Stars.
By Denying Ignorance, and actually presenting FACTS.
Its too bad some continue to embrace ignorance, at the cost of looking like complete fools.
Your post is so profoundly ironic it would blow a hipster's mind. It's actually blowing my mind. If you had bothered to read his post closely, or even bothered to check the "facts" he presented, you'd find that he did indeed present some major counter points that are not facts.
The integrity of this website is going downhill rapidly because of people like you, who star posts without bothering to check the facts yourself. You see it's Slayer posting.. oh look, he quoted some newspaper articles and provided some pictures.. oh he must be presenting only fact.. no speculation or ignorance* in there.. no sir!
*Not an insult, ignorance by its respectful definition
edit on 9/23/2012 by Drezden because: (no reason given)
reply to post by Drezden
Not really.
I provided corroborate evidence and you continue to reply with opinion.
That's the difference.
Not really.
I provided corroborate evidence and you continue to reply with opinion.
That's the difference.
Originally posted by SLAYER69
reply to post by Drezden
Not really.
I provided corroborate evidence and you continue to reply with opinion.
That's the difference.
I really hope you intend to specially point out which things I've said are "opinion".
If this is the response I get from one of the most respected members of ATS then there truly is no point.
reply to post by Drezden
Your whole inquiry was based on half truths and conjecture, which was drastically leaving out many details and contributing factors which obviously portray the situation in a one sided manner. If you're going to attempt to call it try calling it down the middle or not at all.
Had you read through the entire thread you'd have noticed I've never denied US involvement. You on the other hand cant seem to come to terms with the fact that Iran are not innocent victims and are responsible for their actions [Covert or not] just like any other country or Government.
I have not denied US activity, Do you deny Iran's covert activities going back a few decades?
If so, then we have nothing further to discuss.
Your whole inquiry was based on half truths and conjecture, which was drastically leaving out many details and contributing factors which obviously portray the situation in a one sided manner. If you're going to attempt to call it try calling it down the middle or not at all.
Had you read through the entire thread you'd have noticed I've never denied US involvement. You on the other hand cant seem to come to terms with the fact that Iran are not innocent victims and are responsible for their actions [Covert or not] just like any other country or Government.
I have not denied US activity, Do you deny Iran's covert activities going back a few decades?
If so, then we have nothing further to discuss.
I have an opinion based off this thread is that some people will go to any length for enternal damnation of the US while glady ignoring what Iran
does.
When are people going to hold Iran to the same standards they set for the US?
When?
Ok Carry on with carrying irans water prolly make a nice living at VEVAK/MOIS.
When are people going to hold Iran to the same standards they set for the US?
When?
Ok Carry on with carrying irans water prolly make a nice living at VEVAK/MOIS.
edit on 23-9-2012 by neo96 because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by Drezden
Originally posted by sonnny1
reply to post by SLAYER69
And this is WHY you get Stars.
By Denying Ignorance, and actually presenting FACTS.
Its too bad some continue to embrace ignorance, at the cost of looking like complete fools.
Your post is so profoundly ironic it would blow a hipster's mind. It's actually blowing my mind. If you had bothered to read his post closely, or even bothered to check the "facts" he presented, you'd find that he did indeed present some major counter points that are not facts.
The integrity of this website is going downhill rapidly because of people like you, who star posts without bothering to check the facts yourself. You see it's Slayer posting.. oh look, he quoted some newspaper articles and provided some pictures.. oh he must be presenting only fact.. no speculation or ignorance* in there.. no sir!
*Not an insult, ignorance by its respectful definitionedit on 9/23/2012 by Drezden because: (no reason given)
Actually he provided more then enough, for ANYONE to see. You on the other hand provided knee-jerk OPINION. It seems to me you are to worried about one poster, or another, then to provide some actually facts, then mere opinion, to substantiate your opinions.
The ONLY epidemic on ATS are those who believe their opinion is worth more then the facts presented.
I'll hazard a Guess.
Originally posted by neo96
When are people going to hold Iran to the same standards they set for the US?
When?
When Iran goes on a Imperialistic World Tour, posing as the Worlds Police.
Originally posted by Tw0Sides
I'll hazard a Guess.
Originally posted by neo96
When are people going to hold Iran to the same standards they set for the US?
When?
When Iran goes on a Imperialistic World Tour, posing as the Worlds Police.
There's one that will not hold iran to the same standards...............next.
reply to post by Wrabbit2000
Saying Israel can't obliterate Iran might just be a bit conservative. Unfortunately.
If you haven't heard of the Samson Doctrine in regards to Israeli nuclear abilities, it makes for terrifying reading...
Essentially, it boils down to if we're going down, so, too, are you. Given that Israel has a nuclear stockpile of unknown quantity (at least by me...), and the means to deliver it... That should, and I'm sure does, worry some folks in the region.
When the Israeli's say something, they usually mean it. Never again, or at least, not alone...
Saying Israel can't obliterate Iran might just be a bit conservative. Unfortunately.
If you haven't heard of the Samson Doctrine in regards to Israeli nuclear abilities, it makes for terrifying reading...
Essentially, it boils down to if we're going down, so, too, are you. Given that Israel has a nuclear stockpile of unknown quantity (at least by me...), and the means to deliver it... That should, and I'm sure does, worry some folks in the region.
When the Israeli's say something, they usually mean it. Never again, or at least, not alone...
reply to post by seagull
The whole situation stinks to high heaven IMO.
I still say all sides need to stop with the over the top rhetoric and have a face to face sit down instead of all the school yard name calling and finger pointing.
Hey
I can hope
The whole situation stinks to high heaven IMO.
I still say all sides need to stop with the over the top rhetoric and have a face to face sit down instead of all the school yard name calling and finger pointing.
Hey
I can hope
I have brought up the "Samson Option" many times.
Originally posted by seagull
Saying Israel can't obliterate Iran might just be a bit conservative. Unfortunately.
The Israeli Bootlickers seem to be OK with a NUKE pointed at every Major City in Europe.
www.abovetopsecret.com...
Originally posted by SLAYER69
I still say all sides need to stop with the over the top rhetoric and have a face to face sit down
Hey
I can hope
Sorry Mate.
No Hope.
reply to post by Tw0Sides
How is that different from the last 60 years?
forget Russian icbms pointed at those european cities and US?
So Russia gets to do that but no one else can?
Or what about Chinese, and North Korean nukes pointed there?
never mind those evil zionsits agian eh.
How is that different from the last 60 years?
forget Russian icbms pointed at those european cities and US?
So Russia gets to do that but no one else can?
Or what about Chinese, and North Korean nukes pointed there?
never mind those evil zionsits agian eh.
Originally posted by SLAYER69
reply to post by Drezden
Your whole inquiry was based on half truths and conjecture, which was drastically leaving out many details and contributing factors which obviously portray the situation in a one sided manner. If you're going to attempt to call it try calling it down the middle or not at all.
Had you read through the entire thread you'd have noticed I've never denied US involvement. You on the other hand cant seem to come to terms with the fact that Iran are not innocent victims and are responsible for their actions [Covert or not] just like any other country or Government.
I have not denied US activity, Do you deny Iran's covert activities going back a few decades?
If so, then we have nothing further to discuss.
I'm sorry, but there is no other way to interpret the fact that after Saddam massacred Kurds with chemical weapons (that we helped them create).. we gave them a billion dollars 6 months later. We should have completely stopped all support of any kind to Iraq after that, regardless of outside cold-war factors.
I've already acknowledged that you have never denied U.S. involvement in the war at the end of my long post a few replies up. Also in that same post (which you apparently didn't read or understand?) I state that Iran isn't innocent. I never said Iran shouldn't be responsible for its actions either. It's very perplexing that you keep repeating this in every post to distract from my points.
I haven't been having a discussion with you over whether you believe the U.S. supported Iraq during the war.. we both know that the U.S. did. I know it, you know it, so just stop clinging to that deflection tactic.
I'm just showing you the extent of our support with facts and you downplay the government's role by saying I'm giving a one-sided view or you negate the entire thing by falsely claiming I'm accusing you of not believing the government supported Iraq. Extremely childish.
When innocent civilians die by the thousands, there is no "calling it down the middle" as you said. I'm sorry I can't be supportive of the U.S. government over this issue just because of the cold-war implications of the past.
You are correct that we have nothing further to discuss, clearly.
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