NATO air strike kills eight Afghan women

Originally posted by 369821
reply to post by Dizrael

 

Sure, we'll go with that. I have no source and came up with this out of thin air. Just to say it. No other reason.

then tell me! u2u, if you think im wrong then its up to you to "elighten the masses". if not, all we have to go on is either MSM or cryptic stories with no backing.

so please, elighten me.

reply to post by Dizrael


Ive said all Im going to say on the matter. There is nothing to argue and I choose not to. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that what Im saying is FACT. I cant tell you how I know or anything else about it. My only hope is the truth comes out in the near future.
Good day and best wishes.

Originally posted by 369821
reply to post by Dizrael

 

Ive said all Im going to say on the matter. There is nothing to argue and I choose not to. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that what Im saying is FACT. I cant tell you how I know or anything else about it. My only hope is the truth comes out in the near future.
Good day and best wishes.

so you cant provide anything whatsoever, or are unwilling to back that outlandish claim?

what we have here folks is a good ole' fashioned, troll.

T & C 15). Posting

You will not Post any material that is knowingly false, misleading, or inaccurate.

other than the "OS" this is a false/inaccurate statement, unless of course you can provide a source that is.

reply to post by bjarneorn


You seems to have all the answers. In fact , maybe you are a wise man , it looks so crystal clear ...
I thought again, a lot harder, but even after that i don't understand ... a lot more questions , but no answers.
I respect your opinion :

IFF the US is taken out of the equation ... the middle east, is toast.

but allow me to reformulate just a little:

IFF the US is taken out of the equation ... the US, is toast.

.

Think again . A bit harder, as you said!

There is an old saying, that goes like this:A true friend never gets in your way unless you happen to be going down.

reply to post by Dizrael

As much as I hate to get into this, Here you go. And this isnt my source. Just one I found.
www.infowars.com...

Originally posted by 369821
reply to post by Dizrael

 

As much as I hate to get into this, Here you go. And this isnt my source. Just one I found.
www.infowars.com...

i guess if thats all you want to give me. ill read into it. thanks.

very sad incident. the term 'collateral damage' was undoubtedly coined with the aim of lessening the emotional, human reaction to such tragedies.

reply to post by GLaDOS


Those women were casualties...casualties are expected when you have air strikes and war going on. They were in the wrong place at the wrong time. It's time to move along. What happened, happened. Can't change the future.

Oh, and forget about warning the locals of air strikes happening. They are surprise attacks on hidden war criminals.

Originally posted by Skywatcher2011
reply to post by GLaDOS

 

Those women were casualties...casualties are expected when you have air strikes and war going on. They were in the wrong place at the wrong time. It's time to move along. What happened, happened. Can't change the future.

Oh, and forget about warning the locals of air strikes happening. They are surprise attacks on hidden war criminals.

OK, then why do you complain about your civilians dying? weren't they casualties, too?

reply to post by Freeborn


Hello. I thought to take the time to say a few words to both you and the OP on this topic. Hope you do not mind.

I would like to start saying after 9/11 it took all of 5 minutes to finger a suspect and convict him of guilt, when at the time he denied any involvement. It takes longer to find a man guilty of murder when he is standing over his dead wifes body with blood on him and a murder weapon in his hand, than it was to find bin Laden guilty of murdering thousands.

When the evidence was in, none of the people were Afghani who were in those planes, they were all from Saudia and one from Iraq.

The connections was al-Qaeda, an organisation spread across the globe in every country according to the US government.

Why not go after those countries these terrorists were from? They harbor al-Qaeda too, and leaders and teachers of al Qaeda are in Saudia as well, if they are truly in each and every country. And Saudia is the largest exporter of extremism and radicalism than any other country in the greater middle east! Why not fault them?

Not good business is it?

So the US goes after the easy target, the country who, after the US left them in a power vaccum were not strong enough to fight the radicals who took over most of their country. And a war torn peoples simply seek survival at one point... lets face it.

Now, whether or not the US had prior knowledge of the 9/11 plot seems to be what most in the air concerning that... so for now lets ignore it...

America has 3000 dead people and for the American citizens to heal their needed to be a bad guy that will not be upsetting to the oil industry, and Taliban along with bin Laden makes an easy mark... Taliban has been as bad as they come for any peoples, and as a whole seems quite conquerable. After all, they are only camel jockey's yes?

so.... now we have the jist of it, I will say it probably was US governments responsibility to remove the Taliban from power in Afghanistan, since it was the US that originally created the vaccum which allowed them to take over and terrorize the Afghani people. MANY Afghanis were also originally in agreement with this... It really did not seem like a bad thing to have Taliban gone and their country back, so THEY can begin to heal as a nation.

I believe from here, is where US went wrong. First, nation building should be different than what US is currently trying to do. These people have a MUCH different culture, and the same types of systems that work here or in the west or even in many parts of the middle east simply wont work there...

If you want to hear more about my view of what should be involved in removing bad people from a country and helping a people to heal and start a new government that will be good for all the people, I would like Nenothtu to speak on this, because he can say things easier than I sometimes when it comes to this type of thing, and I apologize for that.

But this thing in Afghanistan did not work, was way too long, and the people are sick and tired of war. The government is a US installed, rather than a working one good for the people, and there were many mistakes here. Taliban is still there, many people still living in fear, but now of US and NATO as well as Taliban, and it is just too much.

They want to raise families, go to work and have an income somehow, and simply survive in some semblance of peace... the US is simply not helping them get that....

The Afghanis are not the only peoples in this type of predicament predicated upon them by the US government!

Murder, the killing unjustly of another human being, is evil, no matter who its perpetrator. But at some point people look around them, every country on fire in the middle east, and they wonder.... who is the biggest threat to their security?

And it is the US, whether people choose to see that or not.

reply to post by OpinionatedB

Hello. I thought to take the time to say a few words to both you and the OP on this topic. Hope you do not mind.

Of course I don't mind - I welcome all reasoned and respectful discourse - and it's an open forum on a site where debate is at it's very core.

I never thought this thread was about 9/11 or 'the war on terror' and my point was that so many seem only concerned about the 'injustices' committed against civilians by US / UK / NATO forces.

I have repeatedly stated that there are far too many civilian casualties and that it is unacceptable.

But this indignation is very much selective - not once has anyone replied to me about the fifteen people who were beheaded by The Taliban because they attended a party contrary to Taliban dictates.
Or the civilians who are forced into the line of fire or into dangerous positions as human shields which The Taliban deliberately do to both deter military action from ISAF forces and to publicise and exploit any subsequent loss of life.
Or any of The Talibans other repressive and barbaric acts and decrees.

The Taliban were brutal rulers of Afghanistan and forced millions into a life of misery.
And they show little sign of mellowing.

You make some interesting and valid points about 9/11 and 'the war on terror' - but none of that alters my thoughts about some peoples selective indignation.

I agree whole heartedly with your points about the initial good intentions of removing The Taliban and that all 'we' have succeeded in doing is adding to the Afghani peoples woes.
The US / UK seem obsessed with the idea of imposing their version of a 'democratic' government on people who don't necessarily want it.
'We' ignore their customs, culture and wishes.
'We' screwed up in Iraq in exactly this way and have repeated the self same mistakes in Afghanistan.

Is it incompetence or arrogance - or possibly a bit of both?

I don't suppose to have all or even any of the answers.
But I do know that 'we' can not continue repeating the same old mistakes.

I would like to discuss the points you raised about 'the war on terror' and it's origins and related issues etc in greater detail but I feel it could completely derail this thread.

Originally posted by OpinionatedB

If you want to hear more about my view of what should be involved in removing bad people from a country and helping a people to heal and start a new government that will be good for all the people, I would like Nenothtu to speak on this, because he can say things easier than I sometimes when it comes to this type of thing, and I apologize for that.

I'd be happy to.

"Nation building", in most cases, is a patently ridiculous notion. There is usually already a nation there, so no nation is "built", a regime is simply changed. Two arguable "nations" - as to whether nations actually exist - would be Somalia and Afghanistan. Both have borders but no functional government, and so might more properly be referred to as "areas" than as "nations". Since Afghanistan is the topic of this thread, I'll use it.

Although Afghanistan had borders before the US involvement there, it may not have truly been a nation, since it didn't really have a functional government. The Taliban CLAIMED to be the legitimate government, but that was hotly contested, and in fact the Taliban never controlled more than 60% of the area. It would not have been an issue at all had the US not precipitously pulled out in the wake of the Soviet Afghan war, and left the Afghans high and dry in a power vacuum which allowed the rise of the Pakistani ISI backed and created Taliban. Because of that faux pas, the US DID bear a responsibility for righting their wrongs in creating that vacuum.

"I personally believe that "nation building" in such circumstances is not the installation of a foreign political ideology - in this case "democracy", but rather the support and fostering of the people there to create their OWN government. Support of that nature would be assisting in security to make a safe environment for said creation, and providing assistance in construction of the infrastructure necessary to improve the quality of life so that the people had more leisure in which to consider and develop an acceptable government. "Democracy" is an alien concept to Afghans, and is culturally unsuited to them They do not need nor want democracy, and the forced installation thereof will only breed resentment. Two prior but recent attempts along the same lines have met with abject failure - the installation of "socialism" by the Soviets, and the installation of the Taliban by Pakistani ISI. the commonality in all three cases is the installation of a foreign ideology and government by foreigners. Afghans have a very dim view of foreign intervention in their internal affairs, and rightly so.

Help Afghans to attain the government structure THEY want, assist them in developing supporting infrastructure like roads, communications, power transmission and water transport, and you will have friends for life. Impose the government structure YOU want them to have, and you will make an implacable foe. Promise them the world and deliver to them a vacuum instead, and you will also raise ire. So far, the US in the past 30 years really hasn't been hitting on much in Afghanistan, just as the Soviets didn't. It will not change until US policy at least attempts to align itself with the realities of life in the real world rather that trying to re-make the world in it's own flawed image.

"Regime change" is NOT "nation building".

Originally posted by Freeborn


I don't suppose to have all or even any of the answers.
But I do know that 'we' can not continue repeating the same old mistakes.

I would like to discuss the points you raised about 'the war on terror' and it's origins and related issues etc in greater detail but I feel it could completely derail this thread.

I believe that people are discussing the war on terror in this thread due to the fact that when I read the OP that is the impression I got: that he was using this particular incident to illustrate the reasons why Middle Eastern peoples are beginning to riot accross the globe.

Therefore speaking of this war on terror and how it is affecting average ordinary people is, IMHO, relevant to this thread, using Afghanistan as the highlighting point, since it is the country which can teach us the most all the way around, about how to deal with some of the problems we face today, because they have the extreme of all the problems all the way around, therefore it all becomes easier to understand in general.

If I am wrong in this the OP I am certain will correct me, but I would like to continue for now under that assumption.

I also apologize in advance for the length of what I will say, but there is so much to be said I am not certain it can be quite so short and sweet as to keep the attention without boring everyone to death!

I agree with most of what you have said, but I would like to add to it from my point of view, that of a Muslim.

It also makes me sick when people start acting like there was anything good or upstanding about the Taliban, and to any who wish to speak their praises I wish they could, even for a few days, have to suffer under them, perhaps then they might change their tune! Taliban is evil personified, and nothing less.

But what is at issue here is what the US is doing. Yes, war is hell, but people are sick of the United States deciding what is best for them, and having additional suffering because of this. Instead of doing a good, the US ended up just making things worse for people, and this is the larger issue here. This additional suffering is not only in Afghanistan, but in almost every middle eastern country now. And people are tired, because rather than only one battle, they have two.

Extremism and radicalism is a great evil upon our world, but at the same time, through United States and her allies support of Saudia and Wahabism in other places, such as Egypt and the Muslim Brotherhood, Libya and the Muslim Brotherhood, Tunis and the Muslim Brotherhood, Syria and the Muslim Brotherhood, Saudia as a whole who exports Wahabism (extreme and fanatical religion used for political gain) across the globe, places such as Afghanistan will always exist, not only exist, but become stronger and stronger until the world finds itself in danger.

I beleive the US MUST stop supporting the people who espouse these extreme ideologies everywhere, even though she seems to believe it can be used to her own gain, for our world to become a better place, so people who just want to live in peace, can. Until US stops this, it will only become worse, because you have ordinary Muslims who are angry about the US making their lives worse, and people whose desire for power is so great, they will use any tactic to get it, including religion, no matter how badly they have to twist it.

Stop supporting the source of these political ideologies under the guise of religion, stop creating power vaccums in countries so these people can rise to power, (see Nenothtu's post above), and become a help rather than a hinderance, if you want change for the better.


Until then, you wont have even one happy Muslim in the world. Even the ones in the west, who like the west, have family in the middle east who still suffer due to all of this.

reply to post by nenothtu


Thank you so much for that!

reply to post by OpinionatedB


Afghanistan could have been handled a LOT better. First choice would have been giving the assistance to them that some in intelligence begged for when the Soviets bailed. Congress and the CIA higher ups said "NO!" They were only there to give the Soviets a black eye, and could give a crap about the Afghans. When the Russians tucked tail and ran, so did the US, leaving a vacuum there, and so the Taliban had a fertile field, which had known nothing BUT war and hardship for years, to grow in.

Some DID argue for some genuine nation building back in that day, but were turned down cold. we get what we got from that dumbassed move.

THEN, in the current round of unpleasantness, we went in right - just a few SpecOps to provide coordination and support, air support, etc., and almost all the actual fighting was done by Afghans. THEY were regaining THEIR OWN country, and that's the way they liked it - the way it ought to be. all we were doing was coordinating, directing, and providing support. the Afghans were hauling the freight. then some stupid-assed generals somewhere at CENTCOM decided that SpecOps shouldn't have all the fun... they wanted MEDALS. Chest candy. Fruit salad. Confetti. Shiny crap to make folks think they'd done something. So then the took out the SpecOps, marginalized both them AND the Afghans - in their own country! - and sent in the conventional troops. all so some dumbassed general who never even set foot on the ground there could line his chest with shiny baubles.

That was yet ANOTHER mistake... we HAD it whooped, up to that point!

THEN, some other dumbassed "decision makers" decided that Iraq needed some special attention, and more than Afghanistan. So, they invaded Iraq for no good reason. Just more chest candy for the chairborne commandos. took their eye off the ball in Afghanistan, where they SHOULD have been concentrating, in order to take out a guy they already had pinned down, and who could do no harm at that point. Wasted resources, wasted lives. just another bad, dumbassed decision that contributed to the End of All.

NOW, they are backing the wrong horses again, in Libya, Egypt, Tunisia, Syria, etc. they are backing the very people who are trying to kill them. it's insane. To top that, they are talking about pulling out NOW, after dropping good people in the grease, and leaving them to their own devices. "Sure, you helped us and stood by us, so now you're on yer own." I don't wonder why the level of trust has dropped in the US, do you? What good is an "ally" that leaves you for dead?

Two MORE dumbassed decisions. And the band plays on. There is gonna be a meltdown sure as hell if some of these dumbassed "decision makers" don't start growing a brain to make decisions WITH!

I'm mad as hell about it as an American - I can only imagine how pissed off the Afghans must be by now.

Yes, things like this are wrong and should not happen. But what is the point of organized religion if not to better people morally and ethically? Why is there a need to always retaliate? The greatest spiritual leaders, of any religion or era, have all preached non-violence. It is just so hypocritical in my opinion, as far as what is going on with Muslims. But the other religions aren't clean by any means. If organized religion wasn't a part of our lives, I can guarantee you there wouldn't be so much hate and killing in the world today.

No one will care about these women, people will still be more worried about the diplomat that was killed. Seems Muslim life is very cheap to westerners...

www.bbc.co.uk...


too many trigger happy americans.

they should be prosecuted.

i feel sorry for them and their families and children.

muslim life is very cheap to muslims.


muslims are NOT paragons of virtue.

they are just evil as anyone else.

they rape and kill more women in honor killings every single day.

they are hypocrits and very nasty zealots.