1 Corinthians 13

1 Corinthians 13

1 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

I want to focus on verse 11 specifically.

11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.

First off, we must understand that Paul was talking to the Corinthians, so he talked in a philosophical manner that would be appealing to the Greeks and their style of thought.

My question is, what does it take to become a man, or woman? Does becoming a man or woman in conventional terms necessarily mean you become a man or woman of God? Can you be both?

In this chapter, the theme of love is very apparent. Paul is basically saying, no matter how many works you do, or how much faith you have, if you do not love in your works and faith, it is for nothing, like trying to grow seeds in a salted field. Paul is also saying that the followers should mature and reason like adults, but the extreme emphasis on the importance of love, which I am glad to see, is, I believe, no coincidence.

However, this is where this gets interesting... from Jesus Christ

Mark 19:13-15
13 Then people brought little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked them.

14 Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” 15 When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there.

So Jesus Christ kindly rebukes the disciples for rebuking the children and/or the people that brought them to him, and goes on to say, "The Kingdom of Heaven belongs to such as these," referring to the children. Why does Jesus Christ say that the kingdom of heaven belongs to the little children? Because's a child's love is innocent, it is pure. The disciples, almost indoctrinated by the time's societal values, disregarded children as little, insignificant beings, whereas Jesus Christ loved from straight from the start and viewed them equally, if not higher, than the egotistic adults.( This little tidbit of information is important to keep in mind.) Hmm...

This is my take on the whole thing... Paul and the disciples taught fundamentals (religion), whereas Jesus Christ teaches the heart. To explain it a little clearer, the disciples and apostles taught science and math whereas Jesus Christ taught the purest form of philosophy, the truth about the abstract and intangible facets of life.

Religion gives people a way to tie unconventional reality and conventional reality together, bringing the sacred to conventional reality. But the problem lies when religion oversteps its boundary, and acts as an intermediary between you and God, when in truth, your heart and Jesus Christ is. When Jesus Christ says that he is the only way to Father, I think Jesus Christ meant that living like him and seeing as he did and wholeheartedly knowing who he is while we are experiencing this limited, set time in the flesh is the way to be with Father personally and immediately in this life and the next... Since Jesus Christ did away with the Law of Moses, which served a specific purpose that is no longer necessary, and its stacked precepts on precepts, the rules and laws have been written in the hearts of everyone; we just forget to listen to our hearts as we grow up coping to the coldness of this world. We also forget that everyone started in the same place, created with the same love.

WOOOO 2 paragraphs worth of sidetracking... lol. anywho, heres the main topic of discussion again:

What does it take to become a man, or woman? Does becoming a man or woman in conventional terms necessarily mean you become a man or woman of God? Can you be both?

reply to post by DelayedChristmas


you have no soul just like u have no thread

reply to post by DocHolidaze


What... you didn't know?

Its a new trend on ATS... threads that say nothing get tons of stars and flags...

Like this crap... www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by DocHolidaze


You're quite the quick draw there
See what I did there, eh? Eh? Eh...

reply to post by DelayedChristmas


I believe Paul is criticizing adults acting like children. That has nothing to do with Christ praising children.

reply to post by DelayedChristmas

What does it take to become a man, or woman? Does becoming a man or woman in conventional terms necessarily mean you become a man or woman of God? Can you be both?

1. Depends on how you define what constitutes a man or a woman.
2. No.
3. Both what, a man and a woman? Ha ha, kidding.... seriously though, both what? A man or woman in conventional terms and a man or woman of God? I suppose then that would depend on how you define what constitutes a man or woman in conventional terms.

What I believe Paul is referring to in what you quoted above, is the development of spiritual maturity. Such as, when he was a babe he ate milk, but once he was grown he needed meat.
As we grow towards Christ, we take baby steps and the early time of our conversion we are to grow in understanding of the simple tenets of the Gospel. As we mature spiritually, we grow in discernment and understanding, thus are more prepared to receive the more "meaty" tenets of understanding. Like wading out from the shallow waters, into the more deep.
Although our understanding matures, our faith is always to remain pure and innocent, like that of a child.

Originally posted by stupid girl
reply to post by DelayedChristmas

 

What does it take to become a man, or woman? Does becoming a man or woman in conventional terms necessarily mean you become a man or woman of God? Can you be both?

1. Depends on how you define what constitutes a man or a woman.
2. No.
3. Both what, a man and a woman? Ha ha, kidding.... seriously though, both what? A man or woman in conventional terms and a man or woman of God? I suppose then that would depend on how you define what constitutes a man or woman in conventional terms.

What I believe Paul is referring to in what you quoted above, is the development of spiritual maturity. Such as, when he was a babe he ate milk, but once he was grown he needed meat.
As we grow towards Christ, we take baby steps and the early time of our conversion we are to grow in understanding of the simple tenets of the Gospel. As we mature spiritually, we grow in discernment and understanding, thus are more prepared to receive the more "meaty" tenets of understanding. Like wading out from the shallow waters, into the more deep.
Although our understanding matures, our faith is always to remain pure and innocent, like that of a child.

How would you describe/define a fully matured man or woman?

Here are some links that got me wondering about the question I am asking...

www.stevepavlina.com...
www.esquire.com...

reply to post by DelayedChristmas


I consider a "man/woman" as individuals who take personal responsibility for their own actions. Young men and women can do this very early in life and when working at the prison there were numerous individuals who were fully grown physically who were mentally no different than children. Maturity is a matter of the mind, not so much age.

reply to post by DelayedChristmas


Well, one site seems more theologically esoteric. Versus the other (Esquire, no doubt...) seems more pop-culture-ish.

I would have to say that what defines a man or woman is entirely subjective and you will get different answers from everyone that participates in your inquiry. I know that sounds evasive, but it is nonetheless true.

Just in the two sites you referenced, it seems obvious to me that the standard for true manhood, each, respectively, are quite different and reflected as such in their respective "lists of the stuff that makes you manly"...if you will.
Myself, I would lean more towards the theologically esoteric version as it is more reflective of the tenets I believe to be Truth--- those of Christ.
Regardless, no matter how reflective one's beliefs and tenets may happen to be to those of the Gospel message, they are of no value and utterly void without the One Who brought the message and died in our stead.

Meaning, regardless of how parallel one's beliefs and actions are to those of Christ and His teachings, it is all meaningless and worth no recompense unless those beliefs are based on and include Him.

I think a true man or woman is someone that admits that they are flawed and is capable of humbling themselves to the notion that they are a creation, thus subject to something/someone more than they could ever possibly comprehend. The greatest strength is in humility. Even and especially when everyone around you thinks you are a fool.

reply to post by DelayedChristmas


Do you know why the children ran to him? Because they could see who he was and they were not afraid, they ran to his Voice the way A'dama once did, full of love and without fear. This is how Yeshua wants us to run to him, the way children run to a parent they haven't seen in a while. Through the eyes of a child is the key, and through the eyes of children shall we See.

Matthew 21:12-16

12 Then Jesus went into the temple of God[f] and drove out all those who bought and sold in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold doves. 13 And He said to them, “It is written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer,’ but you have made it a ‘den of thieves.’"

14 Then the blind and the lame came to Him in the temple, and He healed them. 15 But when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that He did, and the children crying out in the temple and saying, “Hosanna to the Son of David!” they were indignant 16 and said to Him, “Do You hear what these are saying?”

And Jesus said to them, “Yes. Have you never read,

‘Out of the mouth of babes and nursing infants
You have perfected praise’?”

Hosanna in the Highest .

As for acting like men and women of God, it won't work 100% because we're imperfect. We will stumble, but keep moving forward. God only got mad at Israel when they stopped moving forward and went backward instead so keep moving forward in his strength.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


Ah lonewolf, sorry to nitpick.

Do you know why the children ran to him? Because they could see who he was and they were not afraid, they ran to his Voice the way A'dama once did, full of love and without fear. This is how Yeshua wants us to run to him, the way children run to a parent they haven't seen in a while. Through the eyes of a child is the key, and through the eyes of children shall we See.

Proverbs 9:10
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

Psalms 111:10
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; all who follow his precepts have good understanding. To him belongs eternal praise.

Deut 6:5
Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.

Luke 10:27
27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’[a]; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself

Matthew 22:37
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.

In my opinion, I don't think the children ran to Jesus Christ full of love and without fear as you think.

I think Jesus Christ said "the Kingdom of Heaven belongs to such as these" about the children because the children wanted to seek him. They heard who Jesus Christ truly is, and their intent on wanting to see and experience him was pure; they were seeking if he was really who he claimed to be...

They heard of the news of Jesus Christ's acts of divinity that was fervently sweeping through Israel, and all of Israel was experiencing what Rudolf Otto observed that all religious experiences have in common, mysterium tremendum et fascinans, or fearful, awe inspiring mysteries

After reading that bible verse, I tried putting myself into the childrens' shoes. I am a Jewish boy living in Jesus's time, and I hear about Jesus Christ, a mysterious "man" that was performing all forms of divinity and claiming to be the Son of God. I would be intrigued, and fearful because I have not experienced this type of situation before. I'm all amped and anxious at the same time to go see Jesus. I see Jesus and wanted him to pray over me, but then his disciples stopped and scolded my mother and my young brothers and sisters. I start feeling down on my self because society is constantly reminding me children are unimportant. But just as I am downtrodden, Jesus says the absolutely perfect thing to tell my broken down spirit, and I learn to love him with all my heart.

Excuse me for being pedantic but this was just bothering me and wanted to share my observations.

reply to post by DelayedChristmas


You're confusing fear. When it says "fear" the Lord the writer is talking about reverence/awe. Not being scared or terror, that kind if "fear" is a sin. If you look at Revelation for the classes of people who will not be in Heaven, "the fearful" is at the top of the list. A person guided and ruled by fear is opposite of one ruled and guided by faith.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by DelayedChristmas

 

You're confusing fear. When it says "fear" the Lord the writer is talking about reverence/awe. Not being scared or terror, that kind if "fear" is a sin. If you look at Revelation for the classes of people who will not be in Heaven, "the fearful" is at the top of the list. A person guided and ruled by fear is opposite of one ruled and guided by faith.

edit on 15-9-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

Exactly, fundamentally fear is just the opposite of love and in effect, truth.
As a semi mortal, I blocked out this truth (love) and equated feeling it with weakness.

Fear drops away as the kingdom is revealed. It happens as one.
It is not possible to be without fear until the truth is known.
The fear is caused by wrong thinking, when the mind sees the truth, that one truth will set the mind free of fear.

It is no more than a mistaken identity. You think you are something that you are not and deep down it is known to be false. Only when you find out what you are will the fear drop away.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
Fear drops away as the kingdom is revealed. It happens as one.
It is not possible to be without fear until the truth is known.
The fear is caused by wrong thinking, when the mind sees the truth, that one truth will set the mind free of fear.

It is no more than a mistaken identity. You think you are something that you are not and deep down it is known to be false. Only when you find out what you are will the fear drop away.

edit on 15-9-2012 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

Fear is the opposite if faith. Never a need to fear if a person has faith that the Lord is in control of all things. Check out the amazing fearlessness of the martyrs in Fox's, jaw-dropping faith in the face of certain death. I always tell people also "You can't scare a Christian with the threat of going to meet Jesus."

reply to post by NOTurTypical


The truth is there is no death.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

The truth is there is no death.

True if you're speaking from a Physics standpoint about the soul and spirit. Generally when people talk about "death" we are referring to the death of the flesh/body. It returns to the dust it was made from.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

The truth is there is no death.

True if you're speaking from a Physics standpoint about the soul and spirit. Generally when people talk about "death" we are referring to the death of the flesh/body. It returns to the dust it was made from.

Absolutely fascinating to read these thoughts/
Have you ever heard of G. Harrison? lol

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

The truth is there is no death.

Not so.
There is and will be a second death for those who choose it.

Thinking contrary to that Truth may offer you comfort, but accountability still stands. There will be a day of reckoning for everyone, and destruction for those who have chosen death over life.

Our concept of physics means nothing to He Who exists outside of the confines of His creation.

reply to post by stupid girl


A 'person' is born when the seeming separation happens. That 'person' dies when it is realized there is no such separation. Life continues. There is real no death because there was no real birth of a physical person, it was just a misunderstanding. A 'person' is a dreamt up idea.