Looks like the US Ambassador to Libya got exactly what he deserves.

reply to post by milominderbinder


I still stand by what i posted i have every right to disagree with this thread and yes I'm outraged..

This has nothing do do with Hitler's boys ..He was not responsible for being murdered the man dedicated his life Middle East for a better life..peace,sugarcookie1

Originally posted by lapi7

Originally posted by Nite_wing
If you feel that an American ambassador and his staff got what they deserved, then you are not fellow American of mine so don't pretend to be.

So then, your allegiance is to your country (good or bad) and not to the whole of humanity or the moral ideal of right and wrong...have I stated that correctly?

Yes. You stated that absolutely correctly.
There is a caveat. I believe we have done more for humanity than any other country at any time and I hope we can do more.

Originally posted by Nite_wing

Originally posted by lapi7

Originally posted by Nite_wing
If you feel that an American ambassador and his staff got what they deserved, then you are not fellow American of mine so don't pretend to be.

So then, your allegiance is to your country (good or bad) and not to the whole of humanity or the moral ideal of right and wrong...have I stated that correctly?

Yes. You stated that absolutely correctly.
There is a caveat. I believe we have done more for humanity than any other country at any time and I hope we can do more.

I don't believe that to be true. Certainly the US has contributed quite a bit to the modern age with technology and entertainment (I'll leave out the "liberation" of other nations). But if we were to say which nation or civilization best benefited humanity on a whole the US would be a few places down I'm afraid.

Top place could possibly be the Romans or the Greeks, followed by The British. But then again, the British just expanded on what the Romans developed really.

This is wildly off topic though, could be a good idea for a thread actually.

reply to post by marker3221

No. Let's include liberation. Germany , France, etc, etc, etc.

Originally posted by Nite_wing
reply to post by marker3221

 

No. Let's include liberation. Germany , France, etc, etc, etc.

A single war (or series of modern wars) does not overshadow or overtake the sheer size of the contribution across a vast many areas of modern civilization developed by the Romans, Greeks & British.

As I said, it would make a fascinating thread & I may have just found my next research topic.

reply to post by My.mind.is.mine


Seriously, did you just say that? The United States of America, in world historical context is not young. We are young in the sense of "American culture", and drop the straw dog argument that American form of democracy and American culture as it currently manifested are the same thing, they are not, but as a form of government, we are middle aged, again in the context of world history. Please know what you are talking about before you join the blame America first crowd. Killing diplomats is abhorrant, even to the adherants of the Koran. And in case you haven't been informed, Chris Stevens was sodomized before he was assassinated. I guess in your world, that is just tit for tat.

Originally posted by LAUGHING-CAT
reply to post by My.mind.is.mine

 

Chris Stevens was sodomized before he was assassinated. I guess in your world, that is just tit for tat.

It is my understanding that Chris Steven's locked himself in a caged room & died from smoke inhalation.

Can you provide a source for this claim?

edit to add: For anyone interested, the sodomized report comes from a single Lebanese source which was translated from Arabic. To date there are no other reports of Stevens being sodomized & its unclear where this Lebanese publication got their info.

Originally posted by queenannie38
reply to post by milominderbinder

 

Why can't we be outraged when ANYONE is brutally murdered?
No matter the situation?

Because some people dedicate their lives to creating death, suffering, and misery for millions if not billions of other people. It will be 50-100 years before we REALLY know what the true effects of these actions. Quite frankly...there is absolutely ZERO empirical evidence to support that Western intervention in the Middle East will do anything but keep the region in a state of endemic warfare for generations to come. There will be CHILDREN that wind up getting killed from the "ambassadors" that haven't even been born yet and who did not share even one single second of their time on this earth with EITHER Chris Stevens OR Ghadaffi.

...and that's on a GOOD DAY. On a bad day, Mr. Stevens just helped nudge us a little closer to WWIII by toppling Africa's most stable and prosperous government. Approximately 20 million people died in WWI. WWII wiped out about 70 million. What sorts of numbers do you think WWIII will bring?

...and I think we can ALL agree that the Middle East is on the short list of places for a truly global and/or nuclear war to break out...right? Do we REALLY want any more instability in that region FOR ANY REASON AT ALL??

Seems kinda like we are just nonchalently rolling the dice w/ about 7 billion lives if you ask me.

Originally posted by queenannie38
reply to post by milominderbinder

 

Why can't we be outraged when ANYONE is brutally murdered?
No matter the situation?

Because some people dedicate their lives to creating death, suffering, and misery for millions if not billions of other people. It will be 50-100 years before we REALLY know what the true effects of these actions. Quite frankly...there is absolutely ZERO empirical evidence to support that Western intervention in the Middle East will do anything but keep the region in a state of endemic warfare for generations to come. There will be CHILDREN that wind up getting killed from the "ambassadors" that haven't even been born yet and who did not share even one single second of their time on this earth with EITHER Chris Stevens OR Ghadaffi.

...and that's on a GOOD DAY. On a bad day, Mr. Stevens just helped nudge us a little closer to WWIII by toppling Africa's most stable and prosperous government. Approximately 20 million people died in WWI. WWII wiped out about 70 million. What sorts of numbers do you think WWIII will bring?

...and I think we can ALL agree that the Middle East is on the short list of places for a truly global and/or nuclear war to break out...right? Do we REALLY want any more instability in that region FOR ANY REASON AT ALL??

Seems kinda like we are just nonchalently rolling the dice w/ about 7 billion lives if you ask me.

Originally posted by sugarcookie1
reply to post by milominderbinder

 

I still stand by what i posted i have every right to disagree with this thread and yes I'm outraged..

This has nothing do do with Hitler's boys ..He was not responsible for being murdered the man dedicated his life Middle East for a better life..peace,sugarcookie1

Tell that to those 50,000 corpses he helped pile up during the 2011 Libyan civil war. I'm sure their loved ones will find great solace in the idea that Chris Stevens was just "helping",

Originally posted by Nite_wing

Originally posted by lapi7

Originally posted by Nite_wing
If you feel that an American ambassador and his staff got what they deserved, then you are not fellow American of mine so don't pretend to be.

So then, your allegiance is to your country (good or bad) and not to the whole of humanity or the moral ideal of right and wrong...have I stated that correctly?

Yes. You stated that absolutely correctly.
There is a caveat. I believe we have done more for humanity than any other country at any time and I hope we can do more.

Yeah...but that doesn't mean much. Hitler thought he was doing the best thing for humanity by "purifying" the gene pool.

Just because we "think" we are helping everyone out...that doesn't necessarily mean that we ARE helping anyone.

Originally posted by marker3221

Originally posted by LAUGHING-CAT
reply to post by My.mind.is.mine

 

Chris Stevens was sodomized before he was assassinated. I guess in your world, that is just tit for tat.

It is my understanding that Chris Steven's locked himself in a caged room & died from smoke inhalation.

Can you provide a source for this claim?

edit to add: For anyone interested, the sodomized report comes from a single Lebanese source which was translated from Arabic. To date there are no other reports of Stevens being sodomized & its unclear where this Lebanese publication got their info.

edit on 14-9-2012 by marker3221 because: (no reason given)

The Lebanese source probably got it from Fox News is my guess.

Originally posted by marker3221

Originally posted by Nite_wing
reply to post by marker3221

 

No. Let's include liberation. Germany , France, etc, etc, etc.

A single war (or series of modern wars) does not overshadow or overtake the sheer size of the contribution across a vast many areas of modern civilization developed by the Romans, Greeks & British.

As I said, it would make a fascinating thread & I may have just found my next research topic.

edit on 14-9-2012 by marker3221 because: (no reason given)

Shoot me a link to that thread when you create it...you've got me thinking now.

Originally posted by milominderbinder

Originally posted by marker3221

Originally posted by Nite_wing
reply to post by marker3221

 

No. Let's include liberation. Germany , France, etc, etc, etc.

A single war (or series of modern wars) does not overshadow or overtake the sheer size of the contribution across a vast many areas of modern civilization developed by the Romans, Greeks & British.

As I said, it would make a fascinating thread & I may have just found my next research topic.

edit on 14-9-2012 by marker3221 because: (no reason given)

Shoot me a link to that thread when you create it...you've got me thinking now.

Will do, if I am the one who creates it.

Originally posted by milominderbinder

Originally posted by Nite_wing

Originally posted by lapi7

Originally posted by Nite_wing
If you feel that an American ambassador and his staff got what they deserved, then you are not fellow American of mine so don't pretend to be.

So then, your allegiance is to your country (good or bad) and not to the whole of humanity or the moral ideal of right and wrong...have I stated that correctly?

Yes. You stated that absolutely correctly.
There is a caveat. I believe we have done more for humanity than any other country at any time and I hope we can do more.

Yeah...but that doesn't mean much. Hitler thought he was doing the best thing for humanity by "purifying" the gene pool.

Just because we "think" we are helping everyone out...that doesn't necessarily mean that we ARE helping anyone.

Ahhh. I see. You are comparing the U.S. to Hitler.
That tells me a whole lot about your ideology.

Originally posted by marker3221
reply to post by LiberLegit

 

So you think that in this ambassador's mind he was fighting for the liberation of Libya because he wanted America to get its hand on their oil reserves along with other countries? You must have been really close with him.

You don't think these radical Muslims who express anger over a stupid video deserve death? Enough anger to kill four other men? They are excused for their lack of tolerance for free speech in OTHER COUNTRIES? Come on. I'm tired of bowing down to Islam. I want pictures of Muhammad painted like a clown on the highest perch for all of them to see. They need to learn others don't think the way they do and they need to learn it NOW. Every other religion has faced persecution, and the reason Islam isn't poked in the same way is because we are afraid of their violent regressions.

1) I'm not pretending to know what was in the ambassadors mind.

2) I don't believe anyone deserves death, I never said that either. But if people play a dangerous game where death is a possible outcome they must accept it if or when it happens.

So let's persecute Muslim's because they haven't been persecuted yet? Your logic is flawed.

Nice post. This is the constructive discussion I love about ATS. I'm not saying let us go out of our way to persecute Muslims, i'm saying they need to understand that others disagree with them and will mock their religion just like all others. I know a majority of Muslims are peaceful, but it is not possible to ignore the millions that are not.

reply to post by LiberLegit


I agree with what you are saying in principle, but your methods are doomed to fail. Do you think if we mock them incessantly they'll realize that "hey, their just going to keep doing this, so lets just ignore them". ?

No, I think the best tactic is not to inflame the situation by mocking something that will flare up violence.

edit to add: I believe when we have a stable situation in the Middle East we'll see a lot less of this kind of behaviour. When that will be is anybodies guess, but I firmly believe Western governments should stay out of the region until that happens.

Unfortunately this is wishful thinking, so long as its an oil rich region (never mind the Israeli situation) thats not going to happen.

Some people on here are so naive - why the heck do you think we have US Embassies?

To spy on people! Our Embassies are filled with CIA - the Russians are filled with KGB...etc.

Of course this guy was CIA - feel bad he got killed but make no mistake he was a spook.
& hate to burst your bubble we use the Peace Corp for intelligence gathering as well.

CIA makes up half of some US embassies

"The Central Intelligence Agency makes up fifty percent of U.S. embassy staff in certain countries, according to a former senior State Department official who has recently been in Afghanistan. In fact, the U.S. embassies in Kabul, Afghanistan and Baghdad, Iraq have the highest complement of CIA official cover and non-official cover agents of any U.S. embassy."

www.opinion-maker.org...

Originally posted by Nite_wing

Originally posted by milominderbinder

Originally posted by Nite_wing

Originally posted by lapi7

Originally posted by Nite_wing
If you feel that an American ambassador and his staff got what they deserved, then you are not fellow American of mine so don't pretend to be.

So then, your allegiance is to your country (good or bad) and not to the whole of humanity or the moral ideal of right and wrong...have I stated that correctly?

Yes. You stated that absolutely correctly.
There is a caveat. I believe we have done more for humanity than any other country at any time and I hope we can do more.

Yeah...but that doesn't mean much. Hitler thought he was doing the best thing for humanity by "purifying" the gene pool.

Just because we "think" we are helping everyone out...that doesn't necessarily mean that we ARE helping anyone.

Ahhh. I see. You are comparing the U.S. to Hitler.
That tells me a whole lot about your ideology.

Not at all.

I'm pointing out that just because we think we are doing the right thing...doesn't mean that we are doing the right thing. The Son of Sam killer was totally convinced that he was doing the right thing because his dog told him to. Stalin thought he was doing the right thing. Pol Pot believed in his cause.

My point is that we should observe the reality of our actions. I'm sure that the good "Ambassador" was 100% convinced he was "saving" the Libyan people or whatever. However...the reality is that the Middle East has been one gigantic disaster ever since the US and Britain started sticking their noses into it after WWI and every attempt to "fix" it has only yielded greater problems down the road.

Just because we can develop a rationale for our actions, that doesn't mean that they are inherently noble.

Originally posted by yourmaker

Originally posted by stonedogdiary
reply to post by milominderbinder

 

Seriously? Did you really just say that?

Opinions are opinions and I understand that. But with that opinion I'm thinking maybe we should send an angry mob to your house to burn it down and fire rockets at you and your family. Is that okay with you?

Did he help overthrow a foreign government though?

His opinion isn't the same as him actually acting out on it on the behalf of our governments.

He overthrew an Islamic government for another Islamic government. Which Islamic side should he have taken? Charlie Wilson raised millions of dollars in aid for the Taliban. Sylvester Stallone made a movie with the Taliban. Gee, I wonder now if that was a good idea for them to help topple the Russians. Islamic supporters need to realize that tomorrow, they will be dhimmis and going to be forced to be Muslim, or pay the jizyah tax, or be killed.

Stonedodgery, it's people like the OP who can't seem to understand that their freedom is gone tomorrow if they can't wake up to the fact that their freedom is worthless under Sharia law. How much clearer can we make it for people like the OP, their freedom is done away with, so they need to get used to it now.