Where are the French Germans etc to defend their governments? Admit your wrong doing!

American mad man:

Just what were you thinking? hahaaa. Did you ACTUALLY think that ANYONE would admit that ANOTHER country was at fault!?

**Note the sarcasm!!**

Come on now, we're open minded here! That means that all other countries are great, and if you say anything bad about them, you're a close-minded biggot! That, and America is evil!

OK, now seriously.. The more I hear about this story, the more it's sickening me. It's not even getting very much attention from other news networks other than fox! I haven't been paying much attention because I worked the last two days, but I heard that France was even involved in giving Saddam weapons!!!!! What the hell is that!? No wonder they won't join our coalition! I have nothing against the French or German people, but this is really f-ed up.

Ahm, we just asked for some proof. Damn, you got us. It's us who are behaving wrong. We actually ask for proof!

I should have known that's this is against the attitude of a "no-proof-but-will-start-the-war-anyway-country"

You might argue that American Mad Man gave proof but he didn't refer to the German-Iraq-Oil-Connection he was whining about so much. Furthermore the deals with the weapon companies have been commented by me and if you read exactly I admitted that those dealt with Iraq. I just denied that those companies had any grantification of the BND, my government and the economic impact was too little as it could actually influence Germany's foreign policy.

That's pretty much admitting the wrongdoing of those who did wrong, isn't it?

Now it's up to American Mad Man to proof his oil-accusations.
Thanks for listening.

[edit on 17-10-2004 by shoo]

The reasons I didn't care so much about the links were A.) It's hard to find credible proof on the internet. Just because a website says it doesn't make it so; however, in cases that are THIS big I guess sometimes it can. Which brings be to point B.) All you have to do is turn to a news station and they most likely would have been talking about it already. This was for discussion, and he probably assumed that most people had heard of this by now. But just for you, Here's a link that will at least cover some of it. I don't have much time, but just go to google and type in "German and French connections to Saddam Hussein". Throw in the word "oil" if you want more.

Originally posted by Jedi_Master
marg6043...

Do you have any evidense of US companies that were involved ???

Or is this just another opinion ???

American Mad Man...

Ya I agree they were bought off...

[edit on 14-10-2004 by Jedi_Master]

my thread on this topic cites a CRS report:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

but also, its been all over the news. quit watching fox and pick up a paper. Don't worry, even americans turn off the TV every now and then...

you may remember the 1000+ page pile of documents the iraqi's released the the UN when asked to provide all evidence of their former WMD program, which the US then promptly seized and classified. ever wonder what was in it?

By the way, you all *DO* know Saddam was an American product, right? You all know the US did more to prop him up than Europe ever did? You should also know that Europe was originally in favor of supporting Iran in the Iran/Iraq war, and its only through heavy US pressure that we convinced France to sell weapons to Iraq in the 80s. We even provided them with bank guarantees and brokers to sweeten the deal.

-koji K.

[edit on 17-10-2004 by koji_K]:

[edit on 17-10-2004 by koji_K]

[edit on 17-10-2004 by koji_K]

[edit on 17-10-2004 by koji_K]

Originally posted by Herman
but I heard that France was even involved in giving Saddam weapons!!!!! What the hell is that!? No wonder they won't join our coalition! I have nothing against the French or German people, but this is really f-ed up.

Prime Minister (then Vice President), "Chirac freelanced a deal to sell Saddam two nuclear reactors.Chirac help build Iraq's ''Osirak'' reactor-the Israelis dubbed it ''O-Chirac''-near Baghdad

He also sought to ship Iraq weapons-grade uranium, even though a safer grade was available. France's then president, Valery Giscard d'Estaing sunk that plan though.

Not even getting into the oil for food scandal France had a huge interest in Iraq.

France's largest oil company, Total Fina Elf, has negotiated extensive oil contracts to develop the Majnoon and Nahr Umar oil fields in southern Iraq.These oil fields made up about 25 percent of the country's oil reserves.The two fields purportedly contain an estimated 26 billion barrels of oil.

In 2002, the non-war price per barrel of oil was $25. Based on that average these two fields have the potential to provide a gross return near $650 billion. Now its at what about $50 a barrel would make them worth over about $1.3 Trillion.

Thats alot of money so can you really blame them. I find it funny though when they protest no war for oil in France. Because it was really going to be there oil I understand why they were mad.

Maybe they'll admit they were wrong when the US administration admits it was wrogn to go into Iraq...

And the reports that incriminated everyone else stated there were US individuals and companies involved but their names were suppressed...

But why should the governments admit their wrongdoings (i'm not saying they werent wrong, but their crimes were miniscule compared to that of the US administration), when the USA cant even admits its wrongdoings... wanna be the most influencial country in the world-show some responsibility.

I think you have to remember that people in France protested in the streets against the US going to war for oil and such.

Nobody protested in America about France's actions. Dont you think thats alittle Hypocritical of them?

They tried to make their opposition to the war in the UN seem all noble when it was anything but.

Why are the citizens of a country responsible for the actions of their elected officials? The only thing a citizen can do is have them removed from office. No individual who isn't a politician or somebody who was directly involved with Iraq in a scandal situation has any reason to feel responsible for the actions their country takes.

Back to the issue at hand. The invasion was based upon the threat of WMD, UN inspectors weren't finding WMD, so these countries didn't sign off on the attack. If the U.S. had found WMD only THEN could anybody legitimately criticize these foreign governments for their inaction on the subject of Iraq and claim within the realm of reason that oil for food fraud kept these countries out of the attack. However thats not the case. No WMDs were found and thus any arguments about foreign countries not getting into this invasion for monentary relations falls short of the facts.

Newsflash: Scientists discover that governments and big business are sometimes corrupt. Back to you, Skip.

Wow. That's great news. I hope they prosecute France and Germany.

Meanwhile, why don't we worry about our own country, and let French and Germans worry about their country.

Speaking of our country, here's our Vice President profiting from Iraq as well:

Cheney said sanctions against countries such as Iraq were hurting corporations such as Halliburton.

"We seem to be sanction-happy as a government," Cheney said at an energy conference in April 1996, reported in the oil industry publication Petroleum Finance Week. "The problem is that the good Lord didn't see fit to always put oil and gas resources where there are democratic governments," he observed during his conference presentation.

Sanctions make U.S. businesses "the bystander who gets hit when a train wreck occurs," Cheney told Petroleum Finance Week. "While virtually every other country sees the need for sanctions against Iraq and Saddam Hussein's regime there, Cheney sees general agreement that the measures have not been very effective despite their having most of the international community's support. An individual country's embargo, such as that of the United States against Iran, has virtually no effect since the target country simply signs a contract with a non- U.S. business," the publication reported

"That's exactly what happened when the government told Conoco Inc. that it could not develop an oil field there," Cheney told Petroleum Finance Week. Total S.A. "simply took it over."

In 1998, Cheney oversaw Halliburton's acquisition of Dresser Industries Inc., the unit that sold oil equipment to Iraq through two subsidiaries of a joint venture with another large U.S. equipment maker, Ingersoll-Rand Co.

The Halliburton subsidiaries, Dresser-Rand and Ingersoll Dresser Pump Co., sold water and sewage treatment pumps, spare parts for oil facilities and pipeline equipment to Baghdad through French affiliates from the first half of 1997 to the summer of 2000, U.N. records show. Ingersoll Dresser Pump also signed contracts -- later blocked by the United States -- to help repair an Iraqi oil terminal that U.S.-led military forces destroyed in the GGulf War, the Post reported in a June 2001 story.

What pisses me off is when propagandistas who aren't as good as I am try and provide a counter-scandal. People with ten-second attention spans suddenly forget current crimes to focus on new crimes. And since hating 'Old Europe' is in vogue among the easily-led these days, an oil-for-food scandal gets their flea-like minds onto something other than our countries current embarrasing, massive, deadly, and costly #ups.

Pay no attention here, folks, look at France and Germany. That's right, suckers.