Where are the French Germans etc to defend their governments? Admit your wrong doing!

I don't know who can beat the Russians in recioeving more oil.

The Russian state itself received 1,366,000,000 barrels. The list also included the following:

Companies belonging to the Liberal Democratic Party received 79.8 million barrels - the list notes the name of party president Vladimir Zhirinovsky. The Russian Communist Party received 1 million barrels. The Lukoil company received 63 million barrels. The Russneft company received 35.5 million barrels. Vladimir Putin's Peace and Unity Party received 34 million barrels - the list notes the name of party chairwoman Saji Umalatova. The Gazprom company received 26 million barrels. The Soyuzneftgaz company received 25.5 million barrels - the list notes the name Shafrannik. The Moscow Oil Company received 25.1 million barrels. The Onako company received 22.2 million barrels. The Sidanco company received 21.2 million barrels. The Russian Association for Solidarity with Iraq received 12.5 million barrels. The Ural Invest company received 8.5 million barrels. Russneft Gazexport received 12.5 million barrels. The Transneft company received 9 million barrels. The Sibneft company received 8.1 million barrels. The Stroyneftgaz company received 6 million barrels. The Russian Committee for Solidarity with the People of Iraq received 6.5 million barrels - the list notes the name of committee chairman Rudasev. The Russian Orthodox Church received 5 million barrels. The Moscow Science Academy received 3.5 million barrels. The Chechnya Administration received 2 million barrels. The National Democratic Party received 2 million barrels. The Nordwest group received 2 million barrels. The Yukos company received 2 million barrels. One Russian company which phonetically reads as Zarabsneft received 174.5 million barrels. Vouchers were also granted to the Russian foreign ministry, one under the name of Al-Fayko for 1 million barrels, and one to Yetumin for 30.1 million barrels. The Mashinoimport Company received 1 million barrels. The Slavneft Company received 1 million barrels. The Caspian Invest Company (Kalika) received 1 million barrels. The Tatneft Tatarstan company received 1 million barrels. The Surgutneft company received 1 million barrels. Siberia's oil and gas company received 1 million barrels.

Here's the complete list where the above information came from, which includes France (and they didn't have nothing like this), but nothing about Germany. I'm still looking.

scoop.agonist.org...

Common sense dictates that this report written by Americans, under the sole auspices of Americans will go out of its way to shelter guilty Republican Americans or American firms, a minimun of three in fact, that wash the hands of politicians. That is already evidenced by invoking the privacy act, and the plethora of redactions in the report.

Common sense also dictates that since this news is months old and nothing has come of it, nothing will. Memories of that beloved crook Reagan and his band of treasonists.

Now that does not mean these officials and corporations should not be behind bars, but what exactly do you expect to do to France and France's officials, or Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, North Vietnam when you can do absolutely nothing against;

Russia and China?

Your friends; Jordan and Kuwait, Indonesia, Qatar, UAE, switzerland and Malaysia?

Your oil alliance; Royal Dutch Shell?

But don't fret, other countries, just as America, are not immune to double dealing, and you did make off with all the spoils when you invaded and took ownership of all this oil. After all, why go the route of sharing when you can have it all? Just bless Halliburton with ownership instead of them having to go the treasonous routel, like Cheney and Halliburton are currently being investigated for?

[edit on 10/14/04 by SomewhereinBetween]

Originally posted by Otts
I have ALWAYS taken pains to get people to show respect to people of other nations and not generalize an accusation to an entire people. I will be the FIRST to tell other people how unfair it would be to put the entire American nation in the same category.

So you know, I really resent ONCE MORE being branded because of my nationality.

Forget it, I'm done with this forum.

Otts, I hope you will reconsider or at least return soon. Yours is a voice of reason and much enjoyed by this poster.

Forgetting all the jingoistic patriot "america is always right" garbage.



Neither European and American governments are right. They both have the same hard-capitalist agenda at grabbing all the wealth possible at the cost of spilled blood of our comrades.

We should take some of these right-wing jingoists and let them spill some blood so a few corporations can reap the profits, while they get spat upon and told to shut up.

Regardless , whether or not it's the US government, French government, Russian government.. they do what hard capitalists always do and grab grab grab.

[edit on 14-10-2004 by RedOctober90]

Originally posted by RedOctober90
Neither European and American governments are right. They both have the same hard-capitalist agenda at grabbing all the wealth possible at the cost of spilled blood of our comrades.
[edit on 14-10-2004 by RedOctober90]

This is preatty much my point. People such as the anti-American french crowd in Europe are very very quick to point out any small thing that America does wrong. Just look around this message board to see what I mean.

But when it comes to themselves, you don't hear anything. Not a peep.

That is my point. That is the point of this thread.

I am sorry if I offended anyone with my admittedly harsh generalizations of the french in general, but I am sick and tired of hearing how bad and evil the US is, and then not hearing anyone say a word about any other country when they pull some stunt like this.

I mean, could you imagine if it was America that had done this? There would be 30 different threads about how evil America is, how evil Bush is, how this is the first stage of the American empire, how this is what the Nazi's did bla bla bla...

And the funny thing is that America is it's own worst critic. We constantly analize our selves and what we do wrong - I just wih some other nations would do the same.

Originally posted by American Mad Man

And the funny thing is that America is it's own worst critic. We constantly analize our selves and what we do wrong - I just wih some other nations would do the same.

Tell me, when was the last time you read a French newspaper or participated in a French discussion board?

Now that I've calmed down...

Folks, I know that a good number of Americans are irritated at what they see as unilateral judgement of their nation by other countries. And as I've said, trust me, the French and other European countries know they're not perfect, and that their governments are certainly not 100 percent pure and wholesome. Heck, I'm ready to recognize as a Canadian that my government isn't always one I'm proud of.

However - and this is just a point on methodology for dialogue - if you want French posters to come in here and give you their take on this whole situation, insulting their heritage is not the way to do it. You'll just make them angry and antagonize them into defending themselves at all costs. I don't think it would serve any kind of understanding to do that.

People deplore that French posters won't come here and "confess". With that attitude and the number of anti-France threads out there, I have to say that if I were French, I wouldn't feel welcome at ATS.

So what I'm saying to the ones who are really interested in dialogue and understanding what the French think of all this - the oil-for-food scandal, the war on Iraq, etc. - try to change the way you go about it.

If you're angry, be critical of the French government. That's fair game. Question its motives, question its integrity. Hell, the French themselves do!

But leave the French nation as a whole alone. Remember that intelligence, courage, stupidity and cowardice, honesty and corruption are pretty evenly spread across all nations.

The French, Germans and Russians aren't doing anything different than any other power is doing. They just got caught with their pants down. America is looking for ways to discredit the opposition to its foreign policy at the moment. A way to prove " we were right all along!".

America forgets, they were the one to support Saddam in the first place, selling him arms( only to be used against them later). They were the ones that supported the Shah in Iran, which only led to resentment, and a coup, bringing the Islamic Fundalmentalists to power.

America is the country that led a war in Iraq, under false pretenses, and is now trying to substantiate the invasion, by pointing fingers at European countries, to try to lift the blame of its illegal war.

During WWII, American companies sold the Germans supplies. IT & T, Ford, GM, Standard Oil, Goodyear: all supported the German war machine. If you think the government didn't notice billions of dollars in sales to an aggressive nation, think again. Their silence at the time only proved the knowledge.

This is from AceOfBase link.

TextThe 918-page report says that four U.S. oil companies - Chevron, Mobil, Texaco and Bay Oil - and three individuals, including Oscar Wyatt Jr. of Houston, were given vouchers and got 111 million barrels of oil between them from 1996 to 2003. The vouchers allowed them to profit by selling the oil or the right to trade it.

The other individuals, whose names appeared on a secret list maintained by the former Iraqi government, were Samir Vincent of Annandale, Virginia, and Shakir Al-Khafaji of West Bloomfield, Michigan, according to the report by the inspector, Charles Duelfer.

The fact that these companies and individuals received oil from Iraq does not mean that they did anything illegal, experts on the program said. Such allocations may have been proper if the individuals and companies received appropriate UN approval. In interviews on Friday, spokesmen for the oil companies and for El Paso Corp., which assumed control of the assets of the company once run by Wyatt, said the transactions had been legal. But each confirmed that they had received subpoenas from a U.S. grand jury in New York, which is investigating "transactions in oil of Iraqi origin" as part of the oil-for-food program, according to a U.S. financial filing by El Paso

When the deals are make by another country is illegal, when deals are made by the US they had done nothing bad at all.

Originally posted by American Mad Man
With the Oil For Food scandal and France/Germany/Russias involvment, I want to hear those from these countries who always seem to be bitching about the US say something negative about their own government.

You guys were bought by Saddam - now admit it!

Sure thing. Just give me the links to those newspapers writing that the German government was bribed by Saddam.

I mean, you can do this or? I am just asking for the most simple question in response to such an accusation.

Hoping for a reply!

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween

Originally posted by American Mad Man

And the funny thing is that America is it's own worst critic. We constantly analize our selves and what we do wrong - I just wih some other nations would do the same.

Tell me, when was the last time you read a French newspaper or participated in a French discussion board?

The last time I read a French news paper was last year, when I was in Paris.

And please, if you think they are critical of themselves, point me to a single thread where a person from France, Germany, or Russia made a post/thread that attacked their own government.

I really hopre you can find one, because that would really make me feel alot better about some of these people, because at present, they seem awfully hypocritical.

Originally posted by shoo

Originally posted by American Mad Man
With the Oil For Food scandal and France/Germany/Russias involvment, I want to hear those from these countries who always seem to be bitching about the US say something negative about their own government.

You guys were bought by Saddam - now admit it!

Sure thing. Just give me the links to those newspapers writing that the German government was bribed by Saddam.

I mean, you can do this or? I am just asking for the most simple question in response to such an accusation.

Hoping for a reply!

You honestly don't know that German weapons manufacturers were recieving billions from Saddam? Or that Germany was recieving billions in oil from Saddam?

Wow, talk about ignorance - and you live in Germany too. I thought it was Americans who had no idea of global politics

This is a very very small sample of the information relating to Saddam-German relations, and their economic importance, as well as one that shows intel cooperation. Clearly, German economic intrests - especially concerning arms and oil trade. Since it was detrimental to take out Saddam for Germany, they were directly influenced by trade agreements, and thus the reasoning in their vote on the UN security council was compromised, just as Russia, France, and China were.

"Germany is also suspected to have one of the closest relationships to Saddam's Iraq in recent years providing him with annual exports amounting to 21.7 million euro in 1997 and 76.4 million euro the following year. The trend continued in 2001 with exports to Iraq bringing German firms profits in the range of 336.5 million euro. Both heavyweights Siemens AG and DaimlerChrysler are reported to be reaping profits in the double-digit millions through these deals. Statements like these wouldn't be so intriguing if Germany and Chancellor Schr�der were not so dead set against any Iraq conflict or even the possibility of assisting the U.S. in a 'regime change.'"

Source

Direct trade between Germany and Iraq amounts to about $350 million annually, and another $1 billion is reportedly sold through third parties.[10]
It has recently been reported that Saddam Hussein has ordered Iraqi domestic businesses to show preference to German companies as a reward for Germany�s �firm positive stand in rejecting the launching of a military attack against Iraq.� It was also reported that over 101 German companies were present at the Baghdad Annual exposition.[11]
During the 35th Annual Baghdad International Fair in November 2002, a German company signed a contract for $80 million for 5,000 cars and spare parts.[12]
In 2002, DaimlerChrysler was awarded over $13 million in contracts for German trucks and spare parts.[13]
Germany is owed billions by Iraq in foreign debt generated during the 1980�s.[14]
German officials are investigating a German corporation accused of illegally channeling weapons to Iraq via Jordan. The equipment in question is used for boring the barrels of large cannons and is allegedly intended for Saddam Hussein�s Al Fao Supercannon project.[15] An article in the German daily Tageszeitung reported that of the more than 80 German companies that have done business with Baghdad since around 1975 and have continued to do so up until 2001, many have supplied whole systems or components for weapons of mass destruction

Who benefits from keeping Saddam in power?

Documents recovered from the bombed Iraqi intelligence headquarters in Baghdad reveal Germany's intelligence services attempted to build closer ties to Saddam's secret service during the build-up to war last year, according to a report in the London Telegraph.

The documents point to a meeting on January 29, 2002 between an agent named as Johannes William Hoffner and Lt. Gen. Taher Jalil Haboosh, the director of Iraq's intelligence service.

Haboosh indicates the Iraqis are anxious to cultivate a relationship with Germany's intelligence agency ''under diplomatic cover," and offers to give lucrative contracts to German companies if Berlin helps prevent an American invasion of Iraq. He also urges Hoffner to lobby the German government to raise its diplomatic mission in Baghdad to full ambassadorial level, according to the Telegraph.

German/Iraq intel ties

They are the market leaders in supplying Iraq, even in the ten years following the Gulf War. U.N. weapon inspectors have filed numerous reports of German firms working with Iraq in its covert programs for weapons of mass destruction. The German newspaper, Tageszeitung, recently reported that German firms are the leaders in supplying Iraq, even in the decade following the Gulf War.

Source

American Mad Man:
You honestly don't know that German weapons manufacturers were recieving billions from Saddam? Or that Germany was recieving billions in oil from Saddam?

Where's the information on the billions in oil they were getting?

I still haven't seen any evidence showing that the french government was receiving these oil vouchers. The link posted by Intelearthling shows some french individuals and companies but nothing to implicate the government of france. In case anyone's interested, this is the french ambassador's view on it:

www.ambafrance-us.org...


As for selling weapons to saddam, i have only one thing to say:

www.cbsnews.com...

edited for spelling

[edit on 15-10-2004 by Chris McGee]

Originally posted by American Mad Man
You honestly don't know that German weapons manufacturers were recieving billions from Saddam? Or that Germany was recieving billions in oil from Saddam?

Wow, talk about ignorance - and you live in Germany too. I thought it was Americans who had no idea of global politics

This is a very very small sample of the information relating to Saddam-German relations, and their economic importance, as well as one that shows intel cooperation. Clearly, German economic intrests - especially concerning arms and oil trade. Since it was detrimental to take out Saddam for Germany, they were directly influenced by trade agreements, and thus the reasoning in their vote on the UN security council was compromised, just as Russia, France, and China were.

"Germany is also suspected to have one of the closest relationships to Saddam's Iraq in recent years providing him with annual exports amounting to 21.7 million euro in 1997 and 76.4 million euro the following year. The trend continued in 2001 with exports to Iraq bringing German firms profits in the range of 336.5 million euro. Both heavyweights Siemens AG and DaimlerChrysler are reported to be reaping profits in the double-digit millions through these deals. Statements like these wouldn't be so intriguing if Germany and Chancellor Schr�der were not so dead set against any Iraq conflict or even the possibility of assisting the U.S. in a 'regime change.'"

Source

Direct trade between Germany and Iraq amounts to about $350 million annually, and another $1 billion is reportedly sold through third parties.[10]
It has recently been reported that Saddam Hussein has ordered Iraqi domestic businesses to show preference to German companies as a reward for Germany�s �firm positive stand in rejecting the launching of a military attack against Iraq.� It was also reported that over 101 German companies were present at the Baghdad Annual exposition.[11]
During the 35th Annual Baghdad International Fair in November 2002, a German company signed a contract for $80 million for 5,000 cars and spare parts.[12]
In 2002, DaimlerChrysler was awarded over $13 million in contracts for German trucks and spare parts.[13]
Germany is owed billions by Iraq in foreign debt generated during the 1980�s.[14]
German officials are investigating a German corporation accused of illegally channeling weapons to Iraq via Jordan. The equipment in question is used for boring the barrels of large cannons and is allegedly intended for Saddam Hussein�s Al Fao Supercannon project.[15] An article in the German daily Tageszeitung reported that of the more than 80 German companies that have done business with Baghdad since around 1975 and have continued to do so up until 2001, many have supplied whole systems or components for weapons of mass destruction

Who benefits from keeping Saddam in power?

Documents recovered from the bombed Iraqi intelligence headquarters in Baghdad reveal Germany's intelligence services attempted to build closer ties to Saddam's secret service during the build-up to war last year, according to a report in the London Telegraph.

The documents point to a meeting on January 29, 2002 between an agent named as Johannes William Hoffner and Lt. Gen. Taher Jalil Haboosh, the director of Iraq's intelligence service.

Haboosh indicates the Iraqis are anxious to cultivate a relationship with Germany's intelligence agency ''under diplomatic cover," and offers to give lucrative contracts to German companies if Berlin helps prevent an American invasion of Iraq. He also urges Hoffner to lobby the German government to raise its diplomatic mission in Baghdad to full ambassadorial level, according to the Telegraph.

German/Iraq intel ties

They are the market leaders in supplying Iraq, even in the ten years following the Gulf War. U.N. weapon inspectors have filed numerous reports of German firms working with Iraq in its covert programs for weapons of mass destruction. The German newspaper, Tageszeitung, recently reported that German firms are the leaders in supplying Iraq, even in the decade following the Gulf War.

Source

So much to quote, so little information. As always American Madman gave not the response that I asked for.

You clearly accused my government of being involved into deals with Iraq and being bribed by Saddam. So did you and so did other Americans on ATS.

So where is the proof that my government was bribed/working together with Saddam Hussein?

The fact that german companies traded with Saddam is no secret at all, as I said just like a thousand times before on ATS(but people must be DEAF!) those people have been prosecuted. Giving the above quotes and facts on a completly different question...what is this?

You have some communication problems? Language too complex for you?
Try to give me the answer I asked for and don't divert focus on something that hasn't been denied. I know about the german companies and I didn't deny it. Give proof for your accusations or leave this forum.

Originally posted by shoo
So much to quote, so little information. As always American Madman gave not the response that I asked for.

You clearly accused my government of being involved into deals with Iraq and being bribed by Saddam. So did you and so did other Americans on ATS.

So where is the proof that my government was bribed/working together with Saddam Hussein?

Did you even read the quotes I presented? How about your governments collaborating on intel? I'd call that working together. Also, allowing weapons trade - isn't that working together?

The fact that german companies traded with Saddam is no secret at all, as I said just like a thousand times before on ATS(but people must be DEAF!) those people have been prosecuted. Giving the above quotes and facts on a completly different question...what is this?

You have some communication problems? Language too complex for you?
Try to give me the answer I asked for and don't divert focus on something that hasn't been denied. I know about the german companies and I didn't deny it. Give proof for your accusations or leave this forum.

OK - since you obviously have no deductive reasoning I will explain it to you. Germany was selling arms to Iraq. That is a fact. Companies must get permission from their government before selling military hardware. That is a fact.

So use your brain! Germany was benefiting mightily from Saddam economically. Because of this, they voted AGAINST UN mandate to remove Saddam from power if he broke the peace treaty. This is a form of bribery, though indirect. Sadam bribed the German government through economic benefits - if you can't see that then I will stop responding to you on the topic because you are in denial.

As for your pathetic attitude, grow up. I am not going anywhere, so if you don't like me, or my opinions or my posts, YOU CAN LEAVE!

Understand that language?

[edit on 16-10-2004 by American Mad Man]

Originally posted by American Mad Man


So use your brain! Germany was benefiting mightily from Saddam economically. Because of this, they voted AGAINST UN mandate to remove Saddam from power if he broke the peace treaty. This is a form of bribery, though indirect. Sadam bribed the German government through economic benefits - if you can't see that then I will stop responding to you on the topic because you are in denial.

Germany exports over $700 billion dollars worth of goods a year, including over $60 billion in exports to the US. They would not put that trade with the US at risk because of a couple hundred million in business with Iraq.
Their objections had to be based on more than just money.

BTW, still waiting for the billions in Oil that Germany received.

Useless. Try to explain that to somebody who is lost in his weired thoughts that whole countries are bribed for economic favours that are so little we don't even care about.

American Mad Man, I read your post but let me get this straight: you have no knowledge on this topic. You might not know but the German BND has no right to do what he is accused of. It it happened like that, certain individuals being paid(not working...thats a BIG difference) did it illegally and without government grantification.

The German BND is furthermore the most controlled intelligence service on this planet, which actually sucks as it restricts operations to a very basic and unusefully legal level.
Their prior task is economic & technology espionage as in other countries. From where do I know this? I spend 3 days talking about the organization, tasks and present operations of the BND, VS and MAD. It was boring, it's not even as interesting as anybody would think.

What I am wondering though, I actually believe that there were illegal weapon exports from Germany to Iraq and other countries but hey...if it was soooo damn much and soooo economically important...where are those huge amounts of weapons? Eh? They weren't used, that's what we know for sure(at least not in Iraq).

What about the U.S involvement in the so called "oil for food program"?

Didn't you know that all the American company and individuals names were taken off the U.S published list because of national privacy laws?

Just because the names aren't there doesn't mean they didn't do business.

I wouldn't throw stones when you live in a glass white house.

Still your chosen name sums it up.You're American,You're a man, and you're mad so I can make allowance for your lack of knowledge on this topic.

[edit on 17-10-2004 by John bull 1]

The reason why they do not post is becouse they do not want to be ostrasised(sp) by people like you. People in other countries that do not like thier government are like americans in some ways, they will speak thier minds whenever they can. But they also differ in many. One thing I have noticed, unlike americans they are more willing to stand up to thier gov'ts even if it means loosing thier way of living or thier lives.

americanmadman you are handling this very imaturaly and you are giving me(an american) a bad name. Otts, I commend you for keeping your kool in a hostile situation.

We are all one race, the human race. If you want the answers madman just look withen yourself. I am sure you have been in situations before, if you have lived life that can help you solve this puzzle you think exists. Do not hold citizans accountable for thier governments doing.