Couple Arrested After 'Burglars' Shot

reply to post by woogleuk


Actually that varies state to state. Here in Louisina we have what is called the "no retreat" law. If someone enters your home without permission, whether armed or not, you have the right to meet force with force up to and including killing them. The catch is you have to prove you were in fear of your life or receiving great bodily harm. so a 300LB man shooting a 150LB teenage better be able to show he was armed or was a ninja or something. But really how hard is it to show you were in fear of your life when an unknwon perosn breaks into your home?

Originally posted by Britguy
reply to post by hawkiye

 

We haven't forgotten history, but what you link to is meaningless and deals with events and laws going back several hundred years. In more modern times, the British people have not been armed at all except for sporting / pest control firearms. Even before the second world war this was the case and ownership was NOT the right of citizens at all, unless required by the government to protect their arses.

I always find it funny when I see the gung-ho ravings of the US gun nuts, with the old adage "they can have my gun when they prise it from my cold dead hand". The truth being they will meekly hand them over when the Feds come knocking to confiscate them. Sure, there will be a few who resist, but on the whole they'll hand them in and grumble about it quietly.

Thing is, the elites who govern us all, globally, will have their installed leaders disarm anyone who may look like a threat. It's not a left or right thing, that is simply another construct used to divide and conquer the masses, who are now too dumb to think objectively outside of TV supplied soundbites and party political directives.

You prove your ignorance! Like I said you don't even know your own history. Britain enjoyed a long history of private gun ownership up till the 20 century and even advocated a gun in every home. And the previous thread I posted is part of that history. Your government brainwashed it out of you and you are defending your ignorance... How said.

Here is a timeline: www.ncc-1776.org...

Oh and there is a reason the feds have not disarmed the American people. WE WON'T LET THEM! They have been trying as long as Britain has but it is not working out for them. You have it backwards a few may turn them in but the vast majority will not as was proven when California banned Assault weapons. Not even 10% turned them in.

We have our many problems but one thing we are superior on to Britain is the right to keep and bear arms! Now stop spouting ignorance and go study your own history instead of trying to justify your ignorance and irrational fear of guns!

Originally posted by HomerinNC
reply to post by Mianeye

 

Figures an anti gun troll would post in here...
Wonder what hed do if someone broke into THEIR house...
"hey, get outta my house"

So you know for certain that the 4 men were burglars do you? Prove it. What If I was to invite somebody round to my house for a discussion about some conflict .....and then shot them and claimed they were burglars.....get a grip.

This is procedure to establish the facts so we don't have morons going around shooting people and inventing reasons to get them off...... DUH i say again DUH!!!!

Oh and by the way. Even if it was a burglar is it OK to shoot and kill an unarmed immobilised burglar or one that is running away (ie your home is safe)?

reply to post by hawkiye


Why is it such a concern of your's what the gun laws are in the UK?

Of course you have every right to give your take on things etc and your views are as welcome as anyone's - but why so passionate?

The simple fact is that the vast majority of people in the UK do not wish to see any relaxation of the gun laws here.
As I have said previously anyone who needs or wants a gun is legally entitled to own one provided certain security criteria are met.
As a result the illegal discharge of firearms is a very rare occurence, even by criminals when going about their activities.
When it does happen MSM tends to make such a big deal of it that outsiders tend to get a quite unbalanced and uninformed viewpoint of things.

Now I'm not saying that what's right for the UK is necessarily right for the USA.
In fact I recognise that it isn't.
The Right To Bear Arms and gun ownership is an inherent part of US culture and society.
The vast majority of Americans wish to retain the Second Amendment - there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

But what's right for the USA isn't necessarily right for anywhere else - something so many Americans don't seem to be able to comprehend.

Where we in the UK, and elsewhere, get really pissed off with you Americans is when you start moralising and criticising other's for their gun laws and using the lack of an equivallent to the Second Amendment as blame for everything and anything bad that happens in our countries and quite bizarrely accuse us of having a lack of balls and backbone.

The British people have risen up and removed several tyrants throughout our history, despite your Second Amendment I don't see any such events in American history.

None of this alters the fact that we should all have a right to defend and protect our families and property - but that does not equate giving someone licence to kill.

reply to post by hawkiye


I am well aware of the history you keep bringing up, but it is irrelevant. Even though the law used to say we could own firearms, back at the beginning of the last century, it did not mean everyone was armed. Very few people owned firearms and those that did had them, for the most part, for practical purposes, not home / self defence. The UK was not some Wild West like society, with everyone packin' heat and ready to blast the next person who looked sideways at them, or overthrow the government.

Thus, no matter how you dress it up and quote statutes of the last few centuries, the fact remains that the UK was not an armed population bristling with firearms. Before the current rifle and handgun bans came into force I was a license holder and I can assure you, there was nobody I knew within the shooting community who would have used their firearms for personal / home defence as that was NOT their stated purpose.
Indeed, to comply with the licensing rules, the firearms were stored in a safe strongbox or, as in my case, with a registered firearms dealer at a safe location. Thus, I was NOT emasculated by the government when the rules changed, merely inconvenienced and pissed off at losing an enjoyable sport. Only someone with extreme paranoia and perhaps small in the trouser department would feel emasculated. Unlike some, we Brits don't need a gun to feel tough - a pointy stick will do just as well.

Originally posted by GunzCoty
reply to post by Mianeye

 

If you turn a gun on another person and pull the trigger no matter the reason, you should get arrested. I don't see anything wrong here.

So if a guy is stabbing me and i pull a gun and shoot him, I should be arrested?
That, my friend sounds ignorant.

Yes. Also, like a good little victim should, make sure to lay supine and spread-eagle to give ready access for the attacker to your vital organs. You don't want your family being sued if he dulls his blade on a rib.

/TOA

Originally posted by Openeye
The article says that the men who broke into their house were arrested as well. I do not know much about the laws in the UK, but I seriously doubt that the couple will be convicted of any wrong doing. I assume they were arrested so an investigation could be properly conducted.

edit on 2-9-2012 by Openeye because: (no reason given)

Seriously doubt the couple will be convicted huh? Just how sure are you? Once you figure out just how sure you are, then read these stories...

The Tony Martin case. In 1999, Tony Martin was woken from his bed at the sounds of 2 people breaking into his rural home. He shot one, wounded another. He served 3 of a 5 year sentence.

The Hastings case. In this case Barry Lee Hastings comes to teh home where his wife and two small children live when he sees a man in in his children's room through a window. Luckily the family was not home, but Hastings was not aware of that fact. He grabbed a knife from the kitchen and the burglar attacks him. Hastings stabs the burglar multiple times and he dies. He was sentenced to 5 years.

There are many cases in the UK where a person who is forced to defend him/her self ends up in jail for doing so successfully.

Originally posted by Mianeye

Originally posted by GunzCoty
reply to post by Mianeye

 

If you turn a gun on another person and pull the trigger no matter the reason, you should get arrested. I don't see anything wrong here.

So if a guy is stabbing me and i pull a gun and shoot him, I should be arrested?
That, my friend sounds ignorant.

Yes, you should be arrested, you could have shot the guy, stabbed your self and blamed it on the dead guy.

It's a normal investigation in to a case where weapons were used.

I don't care where you live it is not normal for the victim to be arrested. In these cases where clearly the two folks who shot the burglars... The evidence will come out if they aren't arrested what do you think an unsolved crime is?

once again the innocent pay for the crooks crimes..... they should not have been arrested and they would not have been in the county where I live......

if you break into my home ... you had better call 911 yourself...

I'm too cheap. I will use the non emergency line.

Originally posted by Britguy
reply to post by hawkiye

 

We haven't forgotten history, but what you link to is meaningless and deals with events and laws going back several hundred years. In more modern times, the British people have not been armed at all except for sporting / pest control firearms. Even before the second world war this was the case and ownership was NOT the right of citizens at all, unless required by the government to protect their arses.

I always find it funny when I see the gung-ho ravings of the US gun nuts, with the old adage "they can have my gun when they prise it from my cold dead hand". The truth being they will meekly hand them over when the Feds come knocking to confiscate them. Sure, there will be a few who resist, but on the whole they'll hand them in and grumble about it quietly.

Thing is, the elites who govern us all, globally, will have their installed leaders disarm anyone who may look like a threat. It's not a left or right thing, that is simply another construct used to divide and conquer the masses, who are now too dumb to think objectively outside of TV supplied soundbites and party political directives.

I would think with the history of the monarchy in GB that they would not allow the masses to have weapons... that is why the poor have pitchforks! Then such an idea would perpetuate it's self through time.

I see this in more of a historical context than a modern day cause and effect.

Originally posted by doobydoll
Don't be too sure that this couple will walk free from court ... .
news.bbc.co.uk...

A farmer who opened fire on two burglars who broke into his remote farmhouse has been found guilty of murder.
Tony Martin, 55, was sentenced to life at Norwich Crown Court for murdering 16-year-old Fred Barras by a majority verdict of 10 to two.

It's against the law to defend ourselves in England. Even if someone punches you, you will be arrested and charged for punching them back.

It is not against the law to defend yourself. In line with the Criminal Law Act you can defend yourself and use reasonable force that may otherwise constitute as criminal in circumstances of a non-threatening nature. Reasonable force is justified force, for example if someone come at you with a knife and you grabbed his hand, the knife went in to him and killed him, you would argue that your life is in danger and his death was caused by his own actions to inflict harm or cause death. If the attackers in this instance come at the person with weapon in hand, after breaking in to the house, it can be argued that their lives were in danger and thus reasonable force was the use of a weapon at hand.

Owning a gun can never be for self defence in the UK, but using a weapon to counter a threat to your life is not illegal. The CPS may try to say other wise as too the old bill, well Senior officers, normal coppers will shake your hand, I should know better than most on here as to how they work. What will get them up is the fact a firearm was used, had these people used anything other than a firearm then they would not have even been arrested and if arrested, would've been promptly released. It will create a lot of argument, my opinion still stands, if your life is in danger all and any form of defence should be used. If you can't justify it, then it is illegal. That it what you are taught in the Police and that is what many of the public don't realise.

If they get away with it, you open the flood gates to people owning guns in their homes, if they get put away for it, the government will lose out on Cameron saying that nobody should be punished for defending their home.

Bottom line, Britain is more violent than most realise, defend yourselves at all cost.

In line with Common law...

"A defendant is entitled to use reasonable force to protect himself, others for whom he is responsible and his property. It must be reasonable."

Don't ever let anyone say that you can't defend yourselves here in the UK, you can, yes it must be justified and yes it must be reasonable, but in relation to the threat posed to you. In such instances of a threat to life, yes if someone dies as a result of you defending yourself it is justified and reasonable given the correct conditions and environment. A jury won't convict you nowadays, they did before during Labour's reign of loving criminal and hating victims and rendering the public totally defenceless. The one thing this government has got right is noticing just how violent things are getting.

As stated, don't ever believe that you cannot defend yourself, if you can justify it then you have nothing to worry about.

Ok just read up about this with details that probably haven't been released yet, they won't be charged at all in fact I'd put my house on it. There was no intent to kill, the intruders were not escaping nor exiting the property when shot, which could indicate unreasonable force even in the undertaking of prevention of crime which you can under Common Law, also act upon. They won't be charged, I reckon they will be released within the next 24 hours. If they are charged I'd be shocked, another useless decsion by the CPS, but they won't go down for this. Not from what I've read.

Originally posted by yorkshirelad
Oh and by the way. Even if it was a burglar is it OK to shoot and kill an unarmed immobilised burglar or one that is running away (ie your home is safe)?

Were they outside the property and running away at the time?
Me I'm a single female and one hears so many horror stories - pensioners being raped even - I am not about to wait to see if they are the 'kindly' burglar variety If I was attacked at close quarters I wouldn't stand a chance. If I couldn't secure myself in a locked room, striking first with an element of surprise would be my best hope. So if I had a gun I wouldn't hesitate to shoot. I wouldn't give a toss whether they were unarmed or not.
As for shooting people running away (Tony Martin case?) yes it's wrong but we have to factor in that he had been 'visited' before more than once by the same family (bunch of chavvy scroats). He was alone, vulnerable, frightened and his adrenalin was probably still in fight or flight mode.

I suppose that if your nation leaves you unarmed to deal with the criminal element who didn't get that memo, you can always try diplomacy...it could work......maybe not.

This is one of the most ignorant things I've read in awhile. You can't kill someone because they burglarized your house. Take ONE gun course and the instructor should tell you that if you fire your gun, expect to be in big trouble. Google the Castle Doctrine, there is much discussion as to the guidelines of self defense in your home.
I am actually surprised when I read stories about people killing intruders and them NOT getting arrested. I have my CCW by the way, I'm not an arm chair quarterback.