On the Subject of Riches

i completely understand where you're coming from but don't worry bout it so much, they already got caught cheating multiple times. it is only a matter of time before they are expelled, three strikes you're out ya know? except they have had waaaaaay more than three strikes.

reply to post by Symbiot


Dear Symbiot,

Actually I think you have some really good points also; I think we may just have different definitional issues. One thing we do agree on is that the system has been allowed to corrupt itself to the point where it can no longer be hidden. I refer to most people as sheep; but, it is not a put down. Most people are looking for lives low on drama that allow them to just raise their families and be comfortable. They are also ill informed and emotional when upset.

I must also agree that it is wrong to idolize either wealth or the wealthy; however, people like Gates and Jobs did not do what they did to become wealthy, they did it to bring this technology into the hands of all, money was merely a by-product. I admire them for what they created.

In the end all societies fail as the the times change new structures and systems replace the old. This only occurs when the old systems fail. The failure may be caused by an environmental problem (the industrial revolution or natural catastrophe) or a moral failure which results in overindulgence and self worship. I believe we are seeing both.

reply to post by AQuestion


Although I am not Christian, I believe there are some similarities between myself and Christians. Personally I feel that the Bible has been tampered with over the years, maybe it was due to hidden agendas or maybe it was due to misunderstandings I'm not positive, but I think there is still at least some insight to be had there. Obviously I think that there is some insight with the 7 deadly sins and those characteristics do play a major role in the state of chaos the world sees today.

I find it odd that many churches are up in arms over things such as gay rights and abortion, meanwhile the 7 deadly sins are raping and pillaging the world's population. To me I'm thinking, you know there's this massive elephant in the room over there and no one's paying any attention to him at all.

Edit: I do not know a whole lot about Bill Gates, I've read some information on Steve Jobs that leads one to see his darker side, but I'd rather not comment on it because I don't want to pick on him. I will just say that I believe Mr. Jobs has done the world a service by bringing forth a technology or technologies that brings enjoyment to many, but at the same time I believe he has brought forth much that contributes to poverty and much that actually works to keep his technology and similar technologies out of the hands of those with little. Oddly enough many of the people that make the parts in his technologies cannot afford to buy his products.

reply to post by Symbiot


Dear Symbiot,

Obviously I think that there is some insight with the 7 deadly sins and those characteristics do play a major role in the state of chaos the world sees today. I find it odd that many churches are up in arms over things such as gay rights and abortion, meanwhile the 7 deadly sins are raping and pillaging the world's population. To me I'm thinking, you know there's this massive elephant in the room over there and no one's paying any attention to him at all.

Let me start with the 7 deadly sins, I don't believe it is biblical. What you know as the 7 deadly sins is really a Catholic belief. The book of Proverbs mentions 7 sins that the lord detests and they are:

A proud look.
A lying tongue.
Hands that shed innocent blood.
A heart that devises wicked plots.
Feet that are swift to run into mischief.
A deceitful witness that uttereth lies.
Him that soweth discord among brethren.

There is only one unforgivable sin and that is believed to be a rejection of the holy spirit from which comes love for God and others, a rejection of love for anyone other than ones self. Having said that, clearly the things you are referencing are to be avoided; but, we can be saved from them. As for homosexuality and abortion, both of those things are also not unforgivable. The short of the matter is that we all fall short; but, we have lots of outs if we love others for then we have the mind of Christ. We were told he will forgive us as we forgive others. I am not asking anyone to believe in Christ, I just wanted to clarify how Christians are supposed to view such things.

As for the massive elephant in the room, there is one and it is destroying the church. The real problem is that the church is more worried about correcting behavior than teaching about the hope that is supposed to be within us. The church has become better known for what it is against than what it is supposed to be for. The other major problem that churches are facing is that they are doing a poor job of self policing and ridding themselves of people who do wrong. They are afraid of the bad publicity.

I was speaking to my head pastor today about dating. As an elder and a preacher I have a duty to the church and felt it would be wrong for me to date any members (not that I had any plans to, one of the other elders is dating a member). I also don't believe in dating co-workers. He told me I was wrong and that if the it would be best, if it came up, for me to date a member who had been there for awhile and had the same beliefs. He said that if such a thing happened, it would be my responsibility to make sure he and the other elders knew of such a thing. He also makes sure that me and the other elders know of his relationship status. I told him that if he ever went out sleeping around I would quit and I figured that if I did so, he would fire me. He agreed. The same thinking does not apply to member or non-members, it is just that elders and Pastors have special responsibilities. Self policing and accountability keep church leaders on the right path and I see too little of it.

We are seeing the death of the church and a great falling away because the leadership has failed to do their real job. The Mormon church spent around $80 million to fight gay marriage in California, they could have used that money to start churches and feed the hungry. I do not know how much christians spent; but, it could have also been put to better use. I believe abortion is wrong; but, I also believe that legislating people's bodies is slavery and I have no right nor wish to be a slave master or owner.

As I have said to others, the amazing thing is that the bible is the only holy book that predicted that it would be spread throughout the whole world in all languages and that once that was accomplished, the church would be persecuted and there would be a great falling away. It predicted that 2,000 years ago. Christians were told to be good slaves by Christ and many who claim to profess seek to be masters, the church has lost it's true purpose.

reply to post by AQuestion


Personally I have nothing against abortion, however; I think that many abortions can be averted if we take a look into just why it is that many have an abortion. I think a lot of abortions are brought about by those who become pregnant, but cannot afford to raise a child. In society today I find that a supercomputer can cost millions and a battleship billions, but a human child is worthless. When IBM produces a laptop they are rewarded with a few hundred or a few thousand dollars, when Cray produces a supercomputer they are rewarded with a few million dollars, but when two people come together and produce a child there is nothing. Now don't get me wrong, the child is a reward in my mind, but for those who cannot afford him he becomes a burden and this is something I find very disturbing about how society views the value of life. Are we saying that mans creations are worth billions, but Gods creations worth nothing?

Many are happy to legislate against abortion, but are willing to do absolutely nothing to help a parent raise a child they cannot afford to raise. Is parenting not work, is it not a job? Many are happy to legislate against abortion under the guise that they value life, so they would prefer that a child be born only to starve?

Being as how you are a member of a church I'm sure you are privy to more intimate information regarding activities than I, but I feel that we are not witnessing the death of the church, but its stagnation. In my eyes the church has never truly understood and I say this because there was a time when the church felt burning witches was a good idea. A time when the church felt that kings and queens had a birth right to a thrown. Not that it's only the church, as a race we used to think that drilling a hole in a persons head to alleviate a headache was a good idea. As a race we've grown with knowledge and the church has done the same, but in this day I see that growth appears to be stagnating. I have seen little in the way of new ideas from churches, new understandings. I see only new ways to fight for the survival of old ideas. In my eyes we are a family, all children of the same father, God, but in many ways we look at one another as though they are foreign where to me they are not, but as close to me as my very own brother, as close to me as I.

Originally posted by Symbiot
reply to post by AQuestion

 

Now don't get me wrong, the child is a reward in my mind, but for those who cannot afford him he becomes a burden and this is something I find very disturbing about how society views the value of life. Are we saying that mans creations are worth billions, but Gods creations worth nothing?

Many are happy to legislate against abortion, but are willing to do absolutely nothing to help a parent raise a child they cannot afford to raise. Is parenting not work, is it not a job? Many are happy to legislate against abortion under the guise that they value life, so they would prefer that a child be born only to starve?

Being as how you are a member of a church I'm sure you are privy to more intimate information regarding activities than I, but I feel that we are not witnessing the death of the church, but its stagnation. In my eyes the church has never truly understood and I say this because there was a time when the church felt burning witches was a good idea. A time when the church felt that kings and queens had a birth right to a thrown. Not that it's only the church, as a race we used to think that drilling a hole in a persons head to alleviate a headache was a good idea. As a race we've grown with knowledge and the church has done the same, but in this day I see that growth appears to be stagnating. I have seen little in the way of new ideas from churches, new understandings. I see only new ways to fight for the survival of old ideas. In my eyes we are a family, all children of the same father, God, but in many ways we look at one another as though they are foreign where to me they are not, but as close to me as my very own brother, as close to me as I.

Dear Symbiot,

I would say that the world does not value life as a rule anymore. People are quick to call for killing others (and by this I am referring to war and the death penalty). Abortion for many years has been the number one method of birth control in Russia though this may have changed. We glorify death in way too many ways. I believe we have ceased caring for one another and have become selfish and selfishly materialistic.

Many are willing to legislate away all of our freedoms and choices. I am not.

I must disagree with your last paragraph, the church is not stagnating and the problem is that it has failed to follow it's first love, God's forgiveness for our sins. Much of the church has done what you have said, they have changed with the times; but, the consequence is that they stopped teaching what Jesus taught. Fundamentalists attempt to return to the old testament and legalism and the liberal church stopped teaching about the bible at all for a touchy feel new age approach. Neither has anything to offer of value. The worst of all the churches is the prosperity movement which teaches that God is a giant slot machine designed to reward you for following rituals (basically occultism).

The lessons Jesus taught are just as relevant today as before. No need to change the message, the need is to teach it and not what people want to hear or believe. It also says that in the end people will love to have their ears tickled, hear what they want to hear and that is the death of Christianity even if churches remain, they will not be of him. Peace.

reply to post by AQuestion


I think what I meant is not that the old sayings be forgotten, but a greater understanding be granted. Rather than teach that one goes to hell for not following, but why one goes to hell for not following. We may be likely to disagree here, but it is of my opinion that hell is not a place a person goes to after they die, but a place a person puts themselves into by committing sin. So the punishment for sin is not eternity in hell after death, but the sin itself for when we are jealous we hurt ourselves, when we murder we hurt our family and by extension ourselves, when we judge we hurt our family and by extension ourselves. Hell is a state of mind, a state of being that a person commits themselves by the very act of denying the love of the family, the very act of hating the children of God.

You speak of war and how killing is glorified these days and that is true, but look at the world around us. What hell could be worse? We've placed ourselves into never ending conflict, a never ending cycle of hatred and in so doing we've cursed ourselves to a life spent feverishly defending ourselves from the backlash. Committed ourselves to a life of fear, fear of our enemies and our enemies have done the same. I read articles of nuclear submarines sitting on sea beds leaking radioactive materials into our waters. Corporations dumping toxic waste in the cheapest place possible in a bid to out do their competition. We try to defeat each other in so many ways and in so doing we destroy our planet, our livelihood.

It is in my opinion that our punishment does come from God, but not in the form of judgment after death, but in the form of natural consequences for ones actions. We waged war and so war was waged on us. We demand life or death corporate competition and so we reap cheap products with ill considered toxicity. We not only allow, but demand a vast disparage in wealth and we reap wealthy rapists who simply are not used to refusal, poor gang members who cannot seek acceptance anywhere else, theft from those who cannot afford housing. This is hell and it is our doing.

Originally posted by Symbiot
reply to post by AQuestion

 

I think what I meant is not that the old sayings be forgotten, but a greater understanding be granted. Rather than teach that one goes to hell for not following, but why one goes to hell for not following. We may be likely to disagree here, but it is of my opinion that hell is not a place a person goes to after they die, but a place a person puts themselves into by committing sin. So the punishment for sin is not eternity in hell after death, but the sin itself for when we are jealous we hurt ourselves, when we murder we hurt our family and by extension ourselves, when we judge we hurt our family and by extension ourselves. Hell is a state of mind, a state of being that a person commits themselves by the very act of denying the love of the family, the very act of hating the children of God.

You speak of war and how killing is glorified these days and that is true, but look at the world around us. What hell could be worse? We've placed ourselves into never ending conflict, a never ending cycle of hatred and in so doing we've cursed ourselves to a life spent feverishly defending ourselves from the backlash. Committed ourselves to a life of fear, fear of our enemies and our enemies have done the same. I read articles of nuclear submarines sitting on sea beds leaking radioactive materials into our waters. Corporations dumping toxic waste in the cheapest place possible in a bid to out do their competition. We try to defeat each other in so many ways and in so doing we destroy our planet, our livelihood.

It is in my opinion that our punishment does come from God, but not in the form of judgment after death, but in the form of natural consequences for ones actions. We waged war and so war was waged on us. We demand life or death corporate competition and so we reap cheap products with ill considered toxicity. We not only allow, but demand a vast disparage in wealth and we reap wealthy rapists who simply are not used to refusal, poor gang members who cannot seek acceptance anywhere else, theft from those who cannot afford housing. This is hell and it is our doing.

Dear Symbiot,

I do not know if we are off topic; but, it is your thread and nobody but us is reading it so I feel free to continue the conversation. If you ever feel we have gotten too off topic, just say so.

Now, I can only speak on what the New Testament teaches (as opposed to whatever church). Hell is separation from God, not a place but a state of being. It is not imposed because of sin, all actions can be forgiven, it is chosen when we choose to not love others. If all you want is yourself then eventually that is all you have, an eternity in self chosen solitary confinement. There are no places, there is only perception. Quantum physics proves that the world in not material, they cannot even identify a matter particle and when they think they have matter acts like a wave and waves act like particles. If one looks at them, they change their actions. Look up the double slit experiment, fun stuff.

By the way, I am enjoying the conversation even if we disagree on parts, good things to consider in a friendly and pleasant manner, thanks.

As for your last paragraph, the bible says that Satan rules the earth. I believe we are here to accomplish two things. I believe we are here to exercise our free will under grueling temptations and challenges, our decisions define who we are and prove it to ourselves as we leave this life (I had an NDE with a life review). We make mistakes, we learn, we go through life until we have made all of our choices and there must be hard ones, those are individual as are the choices. I cannot condemn anyone's choices nor condone, some things just work better than others. Solomon, the smartest man ever according to many, wrote a whole "book" explaining how some things were just bad ideas. He didn't say you went to hell for doing them; but, he explained there were consequences. A murderer can avoid hell; but, who wants to go before God with blood on their hands? If we forgive each other for our mistakes and wrongdoings then we show God's forgiveness, the thing that saves us the meaning of the name Jesus Christ. We also forgive ourselves, makes it easier later.

The more sin, the more lies, the more lies, the harder it is to admit our sin and then forgive ourselves. You cannot forgive yourself for what you do not admit to yourself and accept and accept the imperfection in other. If the church taught this, the truth, the church would be loaded with people and growing. Peace

reply to post by AQuestion


I don't really consider this to be off-topic, personally I find that most conversations simply lead down a path from one topic to the next naturally.

I don't really disagree with anything you've stated in your last post, in fact I think by and large its quite similar to what I said in my last post. I believe in free-will to the fullest extent, that each person is a self governing entity and problems arise when their ability to govern themselves is taken away. The methods by which control can be taken away from a person are many. Obviously there are the forceful methods by which a person is forced to follow the command of another via law enforcement and the like. Money is something I would consider to be a forceful method by which free-will is denied, if one does not follow the command of their employers or customers they are sanctioned or denied money and thus strangled until they submit. There are more psychologically based methods such a judgment, the judgment by ones peers is an attempt to ridicule someone into conforming to the ideas of others, rather than the ideas of the self. Lies and deception are an attempt to control a persons actions whereby the deceiver controls what the receiver believes to be true which in turn he bases his actions off of. Now things such as greed and lust can lead one to employ some of the above mentioned tactics in order to obtain that which they lust.

It is in my opinion that the removal of self-control, self governance, causes much anger and pain among many people and drives them to acts such as murder and rape. If you'll notice that many serial killers bound their victims and revel in the amount of control they have over their victims before the actual killing. I believe this is because the assailant feels a lack of control over his own life, a lack of control in his home life and a lack of control in his work life so he seeks to make up for this in a violent display of control over his victims. It is in the fact that control has been taken from him via lies, sanctions, law enforcement, etc that he seeks to commit murder.

So I think we're not in total disagreement, though we clearly have our differences in ideology. I believe that we are all kings, my life is my kingdom and your life is yours, God is the king of kings and having another king before God, such as a manager or a president, is simply a bad idea that leads to atrocities such as murder, rape, war, depression, irritability, etc... Hell is suffering and much of what I mentioned above leads to suffering or hell, there is no peace in hell. Heaven is Gods kingdom it is a place where God reigns king of kings and all his people have no other before him.

Indeed many rich people are unhappy because those sins are spirit killing traps they have to overcome.It wouldn't be difficult to find many cases of people being murdered for someone else's financial gain.The wealthy have their problems too just money isn't one of them.

reply to post by AgentX09


Nice to see you Mr. X09

Personally I feel that money is one of their problems, but not for any traditionally understood reason. Many of the wealthy find themselves in constant battle, a battle to protect their money and their investments. Their riches make them targets for those that want to obtain their money, from a variety of angles. I think you'll find that many of the ultra wealthy surround themselves with body guards and security escorts, never able to simply walk into a bar and have a drink with friends or go window shopping without sending a small army of security guards to survey the area beforehand is what I would call living a life in isolation.

They need to protect themselves from those that they've angered and those that want their money. I don't think that they necessarily set out to anger people on purpose, but their ignorance towards life in poverty or life in the working class causes them to make insensitive statements and pass illogical legislation that can cause a lot of anger towards them. In addition to that many of them own businesses that are in constant battle with other businesses, they play a never ending game of corporate chess. I liken this to the gladiatorial battles of ancient Rome, it's sink or swim and that type of stress can give one a few heart attacks. I believe Dick Cheney had 10 heart attacks, this is not a sign of a person that is living comfortably well, but of a person living in fear and under much stress. I think if they were to walk a mile in your shoes or my shoes they would find that it is far tougher than they originally thought. Likewise if I were to walk a mile in their shoes I would find that it is also tough, but in an entirely different sense.

Years ago, back in '01 actually, I worked as a security guard for, well I won't name the company. Whenever the owner arrived we were tasked with doing a full security swap of the building and if anything, anything at all, appeared out of place we were to give a secret gesture to notify his arriving escort not to stop. We were also tasked with opening his mail because he was afraid it might contain a bomb or anthrax. The point is... He was afraid. He was and currently is the richest man in my state, I do live in the states by the way

its the age old question should they just give everything away, lets say they are living honest lifes trying thier best but a million pound to them is like 1000 to us. They can chose to give it away and lower their family life but why?

I think the problem is not the people but the system.

Taxation, interest, licence and fees for everything in every state is why you really hate rich folks OP.
Laws against darn near anything you can think about doing. Those are some of the things that keep less fortunate people broker than they would have been to start with.

To live big you have to have a lot of cash flow, one time riches such as lottery winning and inheritance won't last.
If you live the big life on lottery winnings or inheritance it will be gone one day, you can count on that. You can't stay rich and spend money like there's no tomorrow. You also need enough power and connections to keep some "A" hole from taking it from you.

Good luck in your quest for riches.