The United States has collapsed economically, socially, politically, legally, constitutionally, and

Is Economic growth needed in reality? Not really if everyone is working. Economic growth is judged by GNP. Since when was rent considered part of GNP. The government has changed the rules of economics to show economic growth when in reality our Economy is declining. Figured in Economic growth is advertising. Advertising is something that just brings up the costs of products, shuffling these costs to the media.

Imports are a small part of our economy acording to government studies? I saw lies about this many times. I suppose if you add rent, overpriced military spending, deceitful practices of legally calling things American made as long as one part is put on something, and many other distorted philosophies than this is true. Buying Chinese stuff for a dollar and selling it for five bucks makes it appear that Americas input to the GNP is high compared to imports. We can't blame this on China, the middle man is making all the money, that's evident if you compare products that say "Made in America" or "Assembled in the USA"---they are identical to Chinese made, maybe one part is added that is made in America......the label........That was a legal practice say eight years ago and I am sure it still is..

This Economy is a big lie, a Consumer based Economy is never sustainable for a long term. Who were the idiots who thought this would work when all evidence, except for Switzerland, shows elsewise. Sure, a small country like Germany can have half their economy this way but not all of Europe or all of America.

reply to post by seeker1963


"Entitlement programs" is code for "poor people".

They're easy to blame, because they fit a bogus narrative which seeks to shield the wealthy from any culpability. Ironically, this is often carried out by the poor themselves.

reply to post by rickymouse


An economy based on perpetual growth is doomed. It's unsustainable.

Originally posted by jtap66
reply to post by rickymouse

 

An economy based on perpetual growth is doomed. It's unsustainable. [/quote




Yup, but this is what they use as an economic indicator on a global basis. What fools they be.

edit on 28-8-2012 by rickymouse because: (no reason given)

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
I'm not at all impressed with Craig roberts article. For a former Reaganite, he seems pretty focused on the same old Democrat class warfare. Although he is correct about the low wages and the disparity between rich and poor, he does not explain how it got that way to my satisfaction. He will have to ask to audit the fed and stop printing money to pay for entitlements and other overspending by Congress to get my approval, as this is a direct correlation to why inflationary prices are higher than our wages can sustain. The war on the middle class is waged also by raising taxes, so don't be thinking that raising taxes will fix it. You have to cut spending first, because raising taxes just gives the govt more money to spend.

The only thing he forgot to say was 'tax cuts for the wealthy". That is the typical ruse Democrats use to make people accept the progressive income tax, which already taxes people in higher income brackets a higher percentage. The progressive income tax is a tool of communism incidentally.

Incidentally I cannot understand why a Reaganite is bashing free market economy. Let him recite Milton Friedman and I will take him seriously. Now he just sounds like a Democrat who followed Reagan and Kirkpatrick into the Republican party and now feels economic and social justice is necessary to fix things.

edit on 27-8-2012 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)

edit on 27-8-2012 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)

Where to start wit this nonsense?

First of all it is not class warfare to demand that the most wealthy the ones who have received pretty much all of the financial gains that has come from the increased productivity of the last few decades, to kick in a share of all that money to support the government. Oh I know government is a bad word, and we'd all be better off without it, but just keep in mind that those individuals who made all this cash benefited greatly from services and infrastructure that was provided by their government and tax dollars. I think it ironic, no not ironic more like disgusting despicable and dishonest, when bringing to the attention of the uninformed, that the wealth of their country is flowing more and more to the top, is called class warfare.

You want to know how the disparity in income got that way? Tax policy. The super wealthy have manipulated the tax code to their advantage allowing them to skip paying any real taxes and have fooled people like you into defending their larceny. What's truly ironic is that those that have been snookered, that would be you and me, are forced to bear the brunt of this.

Audit the Fed. That will get you somewhere. I think they should. Then maybe it will become clear that all the printing of money did not go to pay for those dastardly entitlement programs, but all went to replace the money the super wealthy made off with. It ain't inflation that is killing your paycheck. No, no, it's corporations demanding more profits. The guys at the top need more income this year than last, just to feel good about themselves.

Te real issue here is that any country that wants to think it has a prosperous and comfortable population, cannot allow such a huge disparity in wealth and income distribution. Free markets can bring out the best in an economy. Free markets with no regulation or control can destroy an economy.

Communism, what a buzz word. Talk about trotting out a ruse.

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus]

That's a nice argument and all, but very Keynesian, which allows for the welfare state as a method to increase the flow of money in the marketplace. Keynesian theory holds that when people stop spending, it causes contraction in the economy. A severe contraction can lead to depression. The Fed controls the contraction and the expansion of the money supply by raising and lowering interest rates and various other means. So the theory goes that if you give welfare to people, they will spend it. Ok, but the people will become poorer and poorer and more masses of people becoming poorer and the disappearance of the middle class because we can never keep up with inflation. They have to stop printing money, but they won't do that until we tell the govt to stop spending. Why does the Fed do this? Because they make money off the principle of the loans to the govt.

All the Obama admin is doing is growing bigger govt for which we have to pay ever more from either taxes or printing money, further devaluing the dollar.

Wrong but typical right wing attack on keynesian economics by stating it "means higher welfare spending". It absolutely does not. What it does state is that wage cutting and welfare cuts as a means to reducing unemployment are ultimately futile.....Dah Dah we have all noticed this just recently across the western economies !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What Keynes did state is that during a depressed economy the private sector contracts and does not invest. It is at these times that the state can invest in infrastructure to stimulate the economy. This does two things, first it stops the downward spiral and thus results in demand in the private sector. Second it improves the state of the country so that when the private sector starts to re-invest there is decent infrastructure. NB private companies DO NOT "decide" to build roads across country they DO NOT "decide" build bridges they DO NOT "decide" to build a power station. These kind of projects are far too costly to be undertaken without a guranteed income (or sale) at the end of it. Only the government can take a broader view of these kinds of projects.

reply to post by speculativeoptimist


Serenity? Yeah, to keep from blowing out a biological gasket, I get it... however, letting the loudest idiot off the hook while they're spreading misinformation is a prime reason the U.S., and the world, is in the situation it is in.

I could preface any reply with "no offense to the loud, paranoid, isolationist, regressive, self-deluded, selfish sociopaths" but perhaps it's time to be as loud as the misinformed masses clogging the info highways because the "discussion" doesn't seem to be getting any more civil.

Most of today's journalists (what few remain) are so careful to not offend that they empty their reporting of context or even clarifying facts.

The fear-driven right wing fanatics are shouting us into a dark age. They aren't actually "right wing." They are simply incorrect in their facts and resulting assumptions.

The other political and philosophical leanings have their share of imbeciles, too, but at least they are mostly harmless.

The new right, however, with their weird fetish for the iron fisted and exploitive upper class few (gee, thanks Ms. Rand) and disdain for any impulse to make our common environment livable or, god-forbid, make some other human being's life more bearable, are pushing us toward literal extinction.

So screw serenity, unless you've given up.

reply to post by leosnake


At the rate we, as a country, are going we are done for. It's just a matter of time if things don't change. A lot of the problems start at home with parents who are "raising" kids with no morals or values. Many people don't want to work hard anymore and it's far easier to get noticed for doing something evil than for working hard to make a difference and slip through the cracks. Violence is over-whelming. Pornography has gotten out of hand. Godlessness in all forms (I am speaking of all religion or spirituality without implying one is better than another) abounds. People care too much about self and too little for their neighbor. We are raping the earth. We need a change. We need to take America back or we will collapse. History has shown this time and time again with many advanced countries and nations.

~LR

reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus


Appreciate your response, and it clarified what I did not understand about your statement of "entitlement programs".

reply to post by leosnake


So yet another person that is advocating taking the "easy" way out for the majority of Americans, and you find this witty or relevant how?

When I say taking the easy way out I mean that this guy is advocating raising taxes which won't affect most of the Americans he hopes reads this article. (aka the working poor). As a member of the working poor i can tell you that whatever taxes I pay into the system I promptly get returned to me at the end of the year. This means that tax hikes will basically not affect the working poor.

While i think the wage situation is SERIOUSLY out of control, I don't think that this guy has all or even some of the answers. He's just telling you what you want to hear. The Obama administration has done, and will continue to do next to nothing to help the plight of the working poor. So saying that this could all magically be fixed by voting democrat is just stupid.

If you are stil looking for your answers from one of the big 2 I'm afraid you probably aren't smart enough to understand the real solutions anyway.

reply to post by okyouwin


When a person is in business and creates jobs for people he deserves a tax break. The owner of a small flooring mill or lumber yard or small factory that employs say three hundred people as a single proprietor or type c corporation where his personal assets are at risk. A person who tries to give his workers benefits and does not lay off his workers if the economy goes bad for a little while, choosing instead to stock his warehouses and keep his employees happy. Meanwhile this person is running at a loss for a while hoping things will pick up. This kind of employer shouldn't be taxed as much.

Then you have the corporations that only look at bottom line figures. They lay off or fire employees when something happens and profits dip. They look to outsourcing the jobs to continue profits with little risk or loyalty to their employees. This is what America has turned into. these people have taken over the businesses that had what made America the best nation in the world to fulfill the American dream. They are often overextended, choosing to hire middle management that screw things up as they play golf and take business trips to entertain anyone who's influence will benefit them. They are fairweather friends who will abandon their ties at the drop of a hat. These corporate elite rarely benefit society if everything is taken into consideration. This type of corporate system deserve to pay lots of taxes to ballance the playing field with good corporations and businesses. Incorporate real jobs creation and sustaining into tax laws.

I am not saying all corporations are bad. Some do not play this safe and greedy game and supply services and jobs for the American people. Sorry to say but the products these good American corporations supply are a little higher priced than the other corporations because they treat their employees fairly. Good corporations and businesses also keep their workers working when times are a little tough. If we would have had all good businesses we would have never had this depression. They contribute to the stability of the nations.

Bottom line is destroying the Country. Easy profits over supplying jobs. We need the Elite, ones who create jobs and bet on the American People. We also need the American people themselves to examine their needs. Is that cruise trip vacation necessary this year, we went last year?. Do I have to insist on a raise because I need New York Strips everytime I eat beef? Is that 666 buck burger a necessity? Do I need to have the best quality clothes and twenty pairs of expensive cloths. Sadly to say, this kind of behavior is misguided. Most people aren't bad, their behavior and perception is bad. They just need fixing, they need to experience humility to come back down to the earth we live on. They need to be awakened.

This mess we are in is everyones fault. When you point a finger at someone three are pointing at yourself with the thumb pointing somewhere else altogether. We need to stop supporting these businesses that are not making real American Jobs. They can import some things because foreign trade is important but not as important as American jobs.

we need good businesses but we do not need these Bottom line corporations. The country is failing, so are the other countries that allow this to happen. This can be fixed

I agree with rickymouse. These corporations that send jobs over seas should be heavily taxed while the ones keeping there jobs here should be given breaks.

reply to post by leosnake


Agree with some of what he says and I disagree with some of what he says.
This definitely promotes class warfare. And the sad thing is that the people at the top who truly get off on the work of others is a smaller few.
He is right that both parties are guilty.

I think the thing is though....
When it comes to the poor... those who don't want to work, the jobs were offshored...
To be fair:
Be a business owner in America for one year, see how that works for ya.
People want cheap everything. Cheap clothes, cheap food, cheap everything.
Even when they have more money, they want cheap and they want it now.
Wholesaling say t-shirts from Taiwan or wherever is way cheaper than wholesaling American made.
So putting those out there for the average American customer is pretty damn hard.
But we've created a nice little cycle haven't we?
I've worked in a union shop. People wanted $30 an hour to drink and smoke pot and take breaks every chance they had. They weren't willing to really work for it. But they wanted to be paid. They put out crap work and wonder where the jobs went. Any smart CEO would off shore to people who want to make a buck.
And the sad thing is the more people I talk to who have worked in those types of shops have the same pathetic stories.
Sure, maybe there are a fair group of hard working people who were thrown under the bus with them. And that is the lousiest part. And yes, there are CEOs who unnecessarily shipped overseas. But when American made pride becomes harder to come by, can you really blame them?

Further.....
I think people have this idea that they should make as much as the business owner or at least a larger fraction.
Nope.
If you have opened and grown a business you know how hard it is to do so. The time away from your family, the late hours, going without pay in the beginning and barely making ends meet. Driving a clunker, meeting clients in hand me down suits. You did that. You got your business to the point that you could hire people, but it took YOUR time and sweat and tears.
Very, very, very few people right now in America are willing to do that.
Why?

Because it's just way easier to let the govt find you a job or pay for you. Sure, it's crap pay, but it's better than having to work your butt off. And when regulations at the town/city, state and federal level begin to strangle your business, why bother?
I'm not saying regulation doesn't have it's place, it does. But when business owners across the country are saying "you're strangling my business" we need to listen to what they're trying to tell us.
Not to policy makers who have agendas to meet and palms to grease.

And BOTH sides are guilty of this.
The reason why those elite few will never be torn down is because people don't really want them torn down.

However, we are now at an interesting crossroads.
The jobs that are being brought in by the corporations are cheap, low paying jobs. And we have a bloated American populace that is so used to living a posh life.
They don't know what it means to go without, they don't know what it means to say NO to the IPhone or the big screen or to.... credit.
They're beholden to the hand that feeds them. They're biting it but they're starting to see that the crap food that they're being force fed is all that they are going to get.
And had they appreciated good hard work and paying your debts the last one hundred years, they might not be in this stupid situation.
Instead, the CEO's are going to exploit it to the very end.
Why not?

I don't blame the CEO's nearly as much as I blame us.

reply to post by rickymouse


"'When a person is in business and creates jobs for people he deserves a tax break. The owner of a small flooring mill or lumber yard or small factory that employs say three hundred people as a single proprietor or type c corporation where his personal assets are at risk. A person who tries to give his workers benefits and does not lay off his workers if the economy goes bad for a little while, choosing instead to stock his warehouses and keep his employees happy. Meanwhile this person is running at a loss for a while hoping things will pick up. This kind of employer shouldn't be taxed as much"


If he's operating at a loss he's not paying any taxes.

I agree with you brother. The small business man is really getting it where you don't want to get it. A lot of this is in the way of local fees and licenses. I am not a tax attorney. But I do believe when you hit that line on you return, that says total adjusted income, and that figure is somewhere north of $300,000.00 You damn well need to pay some income tax.

It always confuses me how people don't understand this. Time and time again when you say high income earners need to pay their fair share of income taxes, the story is told about the goodhearted employer taking it on the chin, taking a loss, yet keeps his people working. I know these people exist. and god bless them. I guess my question is, how can we use these people as a defense for the ones raking in millions, hundreds of millions every year.and through a tax code they helped write, end up paying less of a percentage on these enormous sums than a journeyman plumber who works his ass off every day.

If your argument is that, for a couple of months in the summer the guy don't take a pay check, but at the end of the year took home a million dollars, and because he didn't lay off his workers, he deserves a break. I don't think so.

Americans have been convinced that the business owner ,or job creator, is some benevolent fatherly figure, watching out for his valued employees. That may have had some degree of truth in the past when America was doing quite well as a whole. But today it's all about the money and us small monied people better get hip to this quick, while we still have any power at all.

Originally posted by ANOK
reply to post by hoochymama

 

But the reality is, it is not a free-market, it is a capitalist market. Capitalism is not free-market. Private owners of the means to produce are as much an authority over the markets as the government is. Capitalism is based on surplus capital, and only a minority have access to it. That access is obtained by exploiting labour, the worker has to produce more than they are paid for, to create surplus capital, or surplus value, profit.

Free markets have been around for ever, but surplus capital only became a reality in the 1700's when laws concerning land ownership were changed. Free market does not mean capitalism.

The root of our economic problems, and the social problems that stem from it, is an economy ran by and for private owners of the means to produce. The up and down of capitalist economies is know as the business cycle

Now we are in a global economy countries, rather than just regions, will be more effected by this. So many of the jobs of the US, and I guess some European countries, have gone to cheaper labour markets. This would not be possible if the means to produce were owned in common by the workers, who would of course be more concerned with their communities interests, and not send their own "jobs" overseas. Of course also with no single owner it would be much less likely.

On top of that you have the expense of supporting capitalists interest overseas with a military paid for by you. The oil companies and the military industrial complex are doing very well thank you very much.

If you want to know who the "shadow government" is look no further than the oil industry...

Extreamly well written and clear post. I understand and agree with your PoV. Thanks for this contribution.

God Bless,

Originally posted by Drunkenparrot

Originally posted by buster2010
reply to post by Drunkenparrot

 

Poverty and debilitation effects of Reaganomics? The U.S. economy thrived as a result of Reagan's economic policies....

The national debt went up 186% under Reagan. Because Reagan had to borrow money like crazy to make up for the huge tax cuts he gave the wealthy. Not to mention they had to raise the debt ceiling 17 times while he was in office. When Reagan went into office the national debt was 800 billion when he left office it was 3 trillion. Reagan's voodoo economics was a failure.

Voodoo economics

, I havent heard that in a few years.

History disagrees with your assessment...

These economic policies amounted to the most successful economic experiment in world history. The Reagan recovery started in official records in November 1982, and lasted 92 months without a recession until July 1990, when the tax increases of the 1990 budget deal killed it. This set a new record for the longest peacetime expansion ever, the previous high in peacetime being 58 months.

During this seven-year recovery, the economy grew by almost one-third, the equivalent of adding the entire economy of West Germany, the third-largest in the world at the time, to the U.S. economy. In 1984 alone real economic growth boomed by 6.8%, the highest in 50 years. Nearly 20 million new jobs were created during the recovery, increasing U.S. civilian employment by almost 20%. Unemployment fell to 5.3% by 1989.

The shocking rise in inflation during the Nixon and Carter years was reversed. Astoundingly, inflation from 1980 was reduced by more than half by 1982, to 6.2%. It was cut in half again for 1983, to 3.2%, never to be heard from again until recently. The contractionary, tight-money policies needed to kill this inflation inexorably created the steep recession of 1981 to 1982, which is why Reagan did not suffer politically catastrophic blame for that recession.

Real per-capita disposable income increased by 18% from 1982 to 1989, meaning the American standard of living increased by almost 20% in just seven years. The poverty rate declined every year from 1984 to 1989, dropping by one-sixth from its peak. The stock market more than tripled in value from 1980 to 1990, a larger increase than in any previous decade.

Reaganomics Vs. Obamanomics: Facts And Figures

Where is the failure exactly?

edit on 28-8-2012 by Drunkenparrot because: (no reason given)

We see what you did there, you didn't respond to what was said, you simply changed the subject a little to paint your view right.

Having lived through ole saint Ronnie... Forbes can spin it any way they want, those Reagan years are what contributed to the BUST now. Really.

As a former banking officer, I can regale you with the myriad of schemes that are foisted upon us now and all are shell game.

Derek

My-my-my. Some of you on this thread sure have bitten it haven't you? Hook, line and sinker.

"Save the wealthy! they are job creators"

"No! Save the poor because they are helpless"

"The wealthy earned their money"

"The wealthy earned their money on the backs of the poor!"

On and on....pitiful really.

This thread is the perfect example of the intentional divisiveness TPTB are casting into our society. When the truth is...a very select few are standing back and watching us tear each others throats out.

Those of you defending the poor....Do you volunteer, donate and help? Are you part of the solution or part of the problem?

Those of you defending the Rich....What income level are you personally? Are you so sure you are not biting your own nose off to spite your face?

This division within us is terrible...and a well executed plan by a very small group of would be Global "rulers"...not "leaders".

Please just stop...we know the system is broken and it will not be fixed until we wrestle the wheel out of 'their" hands and get this ship sailing the right way again. Fighting each other is completely useless and pointless. You are not going to change each others minds...neither side will admit they have made mistakes. Time to forgive, heal and find a solution together...

A nation divided...cannot stand.

Originally posted by Jeremiah65
Those of you defending the poor....Do you volunteer, donate and help? Are you part of the solution or part of the problem?

Well I for one support the "poor" because I am poor. Self interest you know.

Really though I support the "workers", poor or not. The "workers" being everyone who owns no capital, and works for a wage.

But it's not all about rich and poor, it is about the inequality that such a system creates. It's about the wars capitalism creates. The economy is seemingly collapsing, but in reality only working people are being effected. Some capitalist industry is still making massive profits. The market is simply manipulated by the capitalist class to ensure they make as much profit as possible, supported by the state and it's military.

Originally posted by ConspiracyBuff
The only thing I wonder at this point is if we can defeat our own ‘military’…

Good Point!!!

Originally posted by Jeremiah65
My-my-my. Some of you on this thread sure have bitten it haven't you? Hook, line and sinker.

"Save the wealthy! they are job creators"

"No! Save the poor because they are helpless"

"The wealthy earned their money"

"The wealthy earned their money on the backs of the poor!"

On and on....pitiful really.

This thread is the perfect example of the intentional divisiveness TPTB are casting into our society. When the truth is...a very select few are standing back and watching us tear each others throats out.

Those of you defending the poor....Do you volunteer, donate and help? Are you part of the solution or part of the problem?

Those of you defending the Rich....What income level are you personally? Are you so sure you are not biting your own nose off to spite your face?

This division within us is terrible...and a well executed plan by a very small group of would be Global "rulers"...not "leaders".

Please just stop...we know the system is broken and it will not be fixed until we wrestle the wheel out of 'their" hands and get this ship sailing the right way again. Fighting each other is completely useless and pointless. You are not going to change each others minds...neither side will admit they have made mistakes. Time to forgive, heal and find a solution together...

A nation divided...cannot stand.

edit on 28-8-2012 by Jeremiah65 because: (no reason given)

edit on 28-8-2012 by Jeremiah65 because: (no reason given)

Amen to this statement , really.