Abortion as seen through a perspective of civil rights.

reply to post by ldyserenity


Ok, now we are getting past appeals to emotion. Thank you for that.

So, does a baby who was born prematurely at 22 weeks have civil rights, whereas a baby who is at 38 weeks, but still in the womb, does not?

Originally posted by LanaDan
reply to post by NavyDoc

 

Do you seriously consider fetuses and born human beings equal? To me it is two different things. As long as fetuses cannot survive without a womb, they cannot have equal rights.

It depends on the definition of human, then. If independant survival is the criteria, does that mean someone on a respirator does not have rights? What about a preterm infant in an incubator, is it more human than someone in the womb or not? If so, why? There is no real physiological difference between a baby before it is born, in the womb, and outside the womb a few minutes later, so what makes the difference to you? There is no soul (or at least one that we can measure and quantify) so what is the primary difference in the individual?

reply to post by queenofswords


You do not know about Annee's situation or mine. Please do not say that other women were in worse situations, but still had their babies. You do not know it for a fact. Anyway, it is their lives and they make their decisions, just like I made mine about having an abortion.

Originally posted by LanaDan
reply to post by queenofswords

 

You do not know about Annee's situation or mine.

I don't care if they know or not - - - we do not need to defend ourselves.

It is none of their business.

I talk about it simply to educate people.

Originally posted by NavyDoc

Originally posted by LanaDan
reply to post by NavyDoc

 

Do you seriously consider fetuses and born human beings equal? To me it is two different things. As long as fetuses cannot survive without a womb, they cannot have equal rights.

It depends on the definition of human, then.

I have no need to defend the non-existent.

I do have need to care for living children.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by NavyDoc

Originally posted by LanaDan
reply to post by NavyDoc

 

Do you seriously consider fetuses and born human beings equal? To me it is two different things. As long as fetuses cannot survive without a womb, they cannot have equal rights.

It depends on the definition of human, then.

I have no need to defend the non-existent.

I do have need to care for living children.

How do you know they are non-existent, and what difference are they from your "living children" as you put it? Do they not live also? Do they not have brainwaves too? What is the real difference?


(I know you'll never answer--you never do--but perhaps someone thoughtful might think about it. There is a bit of disconnect with one who has selective caring.)

reply to post by NavyDoc


The primary difference is that a fetus uses a human being (mother) to survive. All cases you mentioned do not rely 100% on a human being. Yes, doctors help sick people to survive, but they get paid well for doing so.

Originally posted by NavyDoc

How do you know they are non-existent, . .

Because it is not a living being. It is a Potential to mature. A non-existent being.

. . .what difference are they from your "living children" as you put it?

This does not even dignify an answer.

reply to post by Serdgiam


So illiterate this country is these days...hmmm I think a 22 week old baby survives outside of the "host" I am pretty sure...even if it takes a little helping out...it is still outside of the womb...English literature must have been your weak point at school.

Originally posted by LanaDan
reply to post by NavyDoc

 

The primary difference is that a fetus uses a human being (mother) to survive. All cases you mentioned do not rely 100% on a human being. Yes, doctors help sick people to survive, but they get paid well for doing so.

I know this post is not directed at me, so I apologize right off the bat. But navydoc and I are asking similar questions. What is your opinion on the question I posed to idyserenity at the top of this page? Please realize, I am not setting up an argument or anything of the sort. I do not understand your position, but I am trying. As I said, multiple times, I am pro-choice in general. That doesnt mean I would choose the same as you, in a given situation though.

And a question for you specifically; When the technology becomes available to allow a baby to grow, from the moment of conception to beyond, outside of the human body, how would this change your definition (if at all)?

Originally posted by ldyserenity
reply to post by Serdgiam

 

So illiterate this country is these days...hmmm I think a 22 week old baby survives outside of the "host" I am pretty sure...even if it takes a little helping out...it is still outside of the womb...English literature must have been your weak point at school.

Please read the question again. The important part is the last part, and Ill clarify to avoid further miscommunication. Does the 38 week old baby still in the womb lack the rights given to the 22 week old in an incubator? If so, what is it, specifically, about the process of birth that makes us human in your mind?

Originally posted by LanaDan
reply to post by queenofswords

 

You do not know about Annee's situation or mine. Please do not say that other women were in worse situations, but still had their babies. You do not know it for a fact. Anyway, it is their lives and they make their decisions, just like I made mine about having an abortion.

edit on 26-8-2012 by LanaDan because: (no reason given)

You are right. All I know is what has been said and posted. I do know personally two worse situations than anything posted on this thread. They came so close to making the worse decision of their lives, because, as it turned out, they got through it, managed it, and to this day break down in tears at the thought that even crossed their minds.

You think we judge you based on our knowledge of what others have gone through. It's not judgement. It's facts that NEED to be laid out there just in case somebody else approaches the same situation and feels lost or helpless. Always....I mean, ALWAYS, choose life. But, that is just my way of thinking. I don't judge anybody for thinking differently.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by LanaDan
reply to post by queenofswords

 

You do not know about Annee's situation or mine.

I don't care if they know or not - - - we do not need to defend ourselves.

It is none of their business.

I talk about it simply to educate people.

And that is why others talk about it ---- to educate people.

reply to post by Serdgiam


I have always been pro choice, but I do not support abortions after 12 weeks if it is not medical conditions or extreme hardships. I think that 12 weeks is enough time to decide whether you want to have a child or not. It is also the safest for a woman to have an abortion early in her pregnancy. That's the thing it is all about choices. You would not make the same choice as me and it is your right. I do not force my beliefs and opinions at you. If some people believe that fetuses should have equal rights, I am fine with that, but please do not tell me to have a child only because you believe that having an abortion is a murder.

And regarding your question:
My opinion won't change. It is not my business what other women do with their bodies.

reply to post by queenofswords


Here again you say that you know two worse situations, but again you do not really know mine. What if my situation is worse that those people you mentioned?

Originally posted by LanaDan
reply to post by queenofswords

 

Here again you say that you know two worse situations, but again you do not really know mine. What if my situation is worse that those people you mentioned?

#1 - Were you 15? Did your mother kick you out of the house? Was the father 16? Were you confused, ashamed, immature, and scared?

#2 - Were you raped by someone you didn't even know while you were stoned? Were you way past the age that was safe to even be pregnant? Were you single, broke, and dysfunctional?


BTW....both of these children are thriving, happy, and amazing. The first is 4 yrs. old and the second is almost 23!

Originally posted by queenofswords

BTW....both of these children are thriving, happy, and amazing. The first is 4 yrs. old and the second is almost

So what. If choice was made to end pregnancy - - - you would not know you were missing anything.

You would not have a story to use as a judgmental club - - on someone that made the right choice for her.

Make sure they are taken good care of. They are Living Children.

There are always stories.

reply to post by queenofswords


I was not 15, but I was broke. And when I mean broke- I mean not even having a dollar in my wallet. As well as being in a foreign country away from the family, 2000 miles away with no friends and means to live. And by the way, I was not a permanent resident then and could not even apply for any type of welfare or help.

That's right, Annee. You would not know what you were missing.

I'm not judging you. I'm just putting some facts out there. We all have to live with the choices we make in life. You seem to be doing just fine, and that's good.

Originally posted by LanaDan
reply to post by Serdgiam

 

I do not force my beliefs and opinions at you.

Nor do I, at least not intentionally. I think we all do a little "forcing" at times, even if we do not realize it.

If some people believe that fetuses should have equal rights, I am fine with that, but please do not tell me to have a child only because you believe that having an abortion is a murder.

I have never felt that legislating any kind of morality works in any way. People will continue to do what they will despite legality. Women will continue to have abortions whether or not it is legal. Though, in the standpoint of pro-life, one can certainly see why so many feel it is imperative that they do attempt to achieve equal rights, legally. Some really do see it in the same vein as the civil rights movement, regardless of whether or not that offends others. They see what had to be done in that situation, and feel the same must be done here.

And regarding your question:
My opinion won't change. It is not my business what other women do with their bodies.

I realize my question may not have been clear, but women would not be involved in that situation other than the ovaries. I respect that you feel it is not your business, but I asked because you mentioned something about a human host, specifically, determining your viewpoint on when a fetus achieves equal rights and becomes a baby. I ask because I am trying to figure out at what point, exactly, each individual in this thread feels that a baby is granted equal rights. I think we all agree that it happens, but the exact criteria differs and it seems very few are actually willing to discuss it and educate themselves and others.