My problem with Conspiracy Theories......NWO, Illuminati, chemtrails, etc..........

Originally posted by Poveglia
Ok, let me open by saying why I even bothered coming to ATS in the first place. For starters, I'm interested in the paranormal. Not so much as to do "scientific research" to "prove" hauntings or anything like that, but for the simple fact that whether you believe them or not, ghost stories have been entertaining man-kind since time immortal. And even if they are all false (which I am on the fence on due to my own personal experiences, which we can discuss privately or in another thread at another time), they serve as a fine example of the powers of the human imagination and exhibit some damn fine storytelling.

Same here.

A bit about me, I am currently an active duty military guy (Army Paratrooper) stationed in Europe at the moment. Before that, I was stationed with the 1st Special Forces Group, 82nd Airborne Division, and 173rd Airborne Brigade Combat Team.

I've been an Infantryman, paper pusher, and everything in between. I have a combat tour in Iraq. Besides all of that, I am an ordinary guy with a semi ordinary life. I love European beer, love Marlboro cigarettes, 80's rock, Harley motorcycles, and the occasional video game.

Moving onward, I am not a sheeple, or a government plant, or a reptilian for that matter (in case it comes up). I'm basically a normal guy.

You know, this made me realize here on ATS every now and again people tend to forget that people in the military, cops, etc. are people and most of them are trying to do what they think is right. Thanks for that.

1.- If there is a NWO / Illuminati, where is the proof? I know some of you will say "Use the search button", or "research this yourself", but honestly, I have been to hundreds of sites and read hundreds of topics and seen hundred of videos on this, and I am not a believer that they exist.

I've also read a ton of topics, videos, etc. but I DO believe they exist. I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

2.- If these guys do exist, what is the end goal? Say everything they want DOES occur, then what? Ok, so WW3 happens, they take away our rights, they successfully implemented "population control" through the wars etc, then what? Based on history, this conglomerate of evil would eventually break apart, and start competing with their other NWO rulers, which would then, in turn, cause us the "sheeple" to once again choose sides and fight for the one we thought is right.

The only answer I have for this would be that it ends up somewhat resembling George Orwell's 1984. Other than that, I don't know.

I believe religion itself is mostly evil, and is one of those "competing evils" who has their own agenda based on the religion.

BIG disagreement on this one. Personally, I am religious so I'm curious about how you've determined that "religion itself is mostly evil".

Originally posted by PatrickGarrow17
Call me an optimistic moron, but looking at society I'd say it's set up pretty good and has potential to progress. While some ruminate about doom theories, I'll be planning entrepreneurial activity in the goal of eventually becoming wealthy and influential myself with the purpose of continuing to make society better.

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edit on 20-8-2012 by PatrickGarrow17 because: (no reason given)

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WHAT WHAT WHAAAAAT? I might just go as far as calling you exactly that!

Society is set up pretty good??? If you don't see the prison walls, I'm sure prison is a lovely place, yeah...
Entrepreneurial activity, I wonder how well that works out for plenty of people every damn day... I wonder where the fairness, according to you, is in favoring big corporations, to the extent of helping them out with money they have no right to, while intentionally killing off the smaller ones?
Making society better by exploiting others is another favorite of mine, definitely a great plus!
And let's not forget wars obviously started for purposes other than "helping people", you don't have to believe in an organized secret society behind all this, but you can't go saying it's all positive either because that sh¨t pisses me off.



I'm going to meet halfway though, in the universal scheme of things I DO believe it a possibility that they are doing this to make mankind move forward, I don't know what's driving them, but it would make sense, we've been stuck in this game doing the same thing over and over for a bit too long, we have to evolve at one point, and if they were the ones pushing us in that direction, I wouldn't mind, I guess. If this world were stable, there would be no fairness and no equality, and like said earlier, they do indeed have the option to keep the status quo (they have the power and the money), but they don't.

reply to post by Poveglia
I agree. Yeah, there are extremely rich folk and they will gather together for their own ends when it suits them. The question is: Are they trying to kill the excess population and use the rest as slaves in some pedophilic deal between satanists and evil aliens? Some would say 'yes' and if that makes sense to them it's gonna pretty hard to *reason* sensibly with them.

Political parties compete against each other and in-party rivalry has always gone on. Politicians stab each other in the back every single week. The FBI, CIA, MI5, MI6, MOSSAD and dozens of other agencies are also rivals - one not knowing what the others are up to. Families have squabbles and bad apples. Folk get drunk and say things they shouldn't or trust people they shouldn't.

BUT - the so-called illuminati dudes manage to never fall out, not betray each other and not plain screw things up. Super-Evil, invisible psychos with excellent people-skills and healthy relationships?! Hmmmm...

Once your mind has taken you to the point where these villains are real, well, it's open season for ideas like chem-trails!

reply to post by ThisIsNotReality


The people who set up those corporations were simply the superior business people of their time. Should they not have the freedom to grow their brand?

Look at Zuckerberg. Yeah he was born pretty high up, but he had a great idea and made 10 billion pretty much all on his own. Same with Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Warren Buffet. There's still oppurtunity. A lot of today's business models will be obsolete before you know it. Oil is already starting to go out of style and the majority of the world's top 10 companies (by revenue) are petroleum related.

Fact is, the longer a society is continuous the more potential there is for top companies to retain power. Industrialism is only 150 years old and those families are all still around.

But we'll see new revolutions and newly wealthy. There's untold money to be made in the emerging sciences of biotech, robotics, information tech, nanotech, and genetics (BRING) .It's not completely rigged. Just wait until the space program really takes off and a galaxy of resources become available for economic growth.

And yeah, I stick by saying we're moving forward. It's been almost 70 years now since WW2 and nothing has come close to that level of violence. The middle class today is better off than ever (except six years ago, of course).

I think many are consumed in small recession and not focused enough on large picture. If you say things got worse 2007-2012, a five year span, you might be right. But not sure that holds for a better sample, say 50 years, 1952-2012.

Or better yet, 500 years. 1512-2012.

What's the trend when you look at the bigger picture?

reply to post by Poveglia


all i can say is if you claim you already are a non believer, why would anyone waste time trying to convince you of the opposite?

your cup is already full?

reply to post by Poveglia


its a bummer that you mention the very real NWO and chemtrails in the same post. Its true they are spraying chemmies in the air, but in the grand scheme of things, the issue paints conspiracies as a joke.

Originally posted by PatrickGarrow17
reply to post by ThisIsNotReality

 

And yeah, I stick by saying we're moving forward. It's been almost 70 years now since WW2 and nothing has come close to that level of violence. The middle class today is better off than ever (except six years ago, of course).

After reading this, I am left here scratching my head, thinking you must have not been paying a lot of attention lately?

The middle class? Yes, I'm sure they are better off every damn day, since they are slowly disappearing and we now call them "the poor" Maybe what is left of the middle class, has it better, yeah.

Also, to think "coming revolutions" are not already paid for by the people where the big money sits, to me, is a pretty overoptimistic, perhaps even a bit deluded, way of looking at things. Perhaps I'm being a pessimist here, but do you honestly believe that the innovations of the future will come from a bunch of regulars? Lol, good 'ol Billy already has his hands in bio engineering etc, and every other aspect you can come up with, is already being dominated by the people that get the opportunity FIRST, and THAT is what it's all about. When you have the money, you can be first in all these things, and continually stay in power. I don't understand how on one side you can admit that the power has been with these people for all these years, but now suddenly supposedly, they will lose control, and the regular people will take over? Nope, don't think so, you know, these people know the same stuff and more, than you do, they are not "asleep" and they will make sure they get in this first so nobody else can. They don't like competition

Also, I refuse to believe much progress will be made in future years in areas such as power generation etc... The possibilities have already been there in the past, but they are suppressed, free energy means free people and that beast, I can guarantee you, is something nobody in power is ever going to set free.

Can you imagine people doing research in electricity discovering a free energy device? Now do you honestly believe the people, that make money from other people who need their product, are going to release a device that removes them from the equation? That's some funny sh*t, people never consider these things, and when they do they are often at a loss for words, because when you remove all the layers of added confusion, this is what remains, and this is why we are currently "stuck". We can't move on any further without them losing control.

Wow guys! Thanks for all the overwhelming responses, stars, flags, etc.... You guys are great. Soooo many posts to reply too, and so much in my head that it is impossible to put it all down right now. Everytime I think of something, something else pops in my head...

Ok, I'll being (sorry so late...been at work)

1.- Do I believe in an Illuminati, or a brotherhood of powerful people who have combined forces to control the world? No....what I do believe in is various monetary and economic forces who are attempting to control all monetary funds as well as as many natural resources as possible to maximize their own wealth. I also believe these industries use lobbyists and campaign fund to line the pockets of politicians, to get them to vote their way. Or they offer them positions of power within the coorperations when they leave politics...I think of it as a biker gang or classic mob movie, just on a larger scale. They make money, and then pay the cops (politicians) to look the other way or give them special favors. But I also believe that they are not unified, and only work in cohesion when it mutually benefits them all. But, on any other given day, their "co-conspirators" can become their rivals very quickly.

2.- Do I believe it is part of a Satan worshipping cabal, or a secret ancient sect that believe they can unlock hidden human super powers? No, emphatically no!! I can't even believe some of you brought this into the equation. You want to talk conspiracy theories, the Bible and it's history is a big enough one! But you cannot come into what I hope you consider a logical thread and through in all of this paranormal material. No, I dont believe their is or never will be an anti-christ. Also, when you bring up the "super human" theory, you basically said that it is not something I can prove, it is something that I will feel. This is completely illogical to me. So you are basing your ENTIRE way of thinking around a "feeling" you get? If this were even remotely true, then some people with super powers would be appearing at a slow rate all around us. And please dont tell me psychic abilities count. Ask Harry Houdidi about that one. Psychics NEVER pass when tested, they only appear psychic when using hot or cold reading techniques, which anyone can do.

3.- Do I believe wars are a sacrifice to Satan? Absolutely not. "Wars are old men talking and young men dying"--Gladiator Wars have been the same throughout history....race, religion, greed......thats basically it. Those who are in power, or influence those in power strategically plan wars that will benefit themselves or their nation in some way.

4.- Do I believe that 9-11 was an inside job? Hell no. I believe it was an attack that was used to justify two wars that served multiple purposes. I believe 9-11 was a tragedy that was exploited by some in power. Now I have a completely different out take on this issue, because I am military, and because I have been in units that you play video games about (namely Special Forces). But here is why I have a different out take on this. I cannot get into any details,, at all, but I will say that we stopped some VERY sinister deeds from occuring all over the world, that you will NEVER know about. There REALLY are terrorists, regardless of what you skeptics and conspiracy theorists think, and they REALLY do plan to hurt innocent Americans and people all over the world. They WILL kill wives, kids, grandmothers, sisters given the chance. I'm not saying this to promote fear tactics, but it is true. And, if we hadnt have been there to stop these things, there would have been dozens more "false flag" posts on this site. I have seen this first hand, and I shake my head. But thats why some citizens consider us "unsung heroes", because you will never know.

Also, yes I believe coorperations and private interests took advantage of the tragedy to increase their own profits. That is why we have been there so long, but it is not the cause for the initial invasion. They didnt use the military to go to war, they took advantage of the fact that we were already there and "secured" the areas....

Some conspiracy theorists are brilliant thinkers with awesome imaginations, but they are most assuredly NOT critical thinkers. This is actually exhibited quite regularly in this very thread............

Originally posted by Kandinsky
reply to post by Poveglia

 

I agree. Yeah, there are extremely rich folk and they will gather together for their own ends when it suits them. The question is: Are they trying to kill the excess population and use the rest as slaves in some pedophilic deal between satanists and evil aliens? Some would say 'yes' and if that makes sense to them it's gonna pretty hard to *reason* sensibly with them.

Political parties compete against each other and in-party rivalry has always gone on. Politicians stab each other in the back every single week. The FBI, CIA, MI5, MI6, MOSSAD and dozens of other agencies are also rivals - one not knowing what the others are up to. Families have squabbles and bad apples. Folk get drunk and say things they shouldn't or trust people they shouldn't.

BUT - the so-called illuminati dudes manage to never fall out, not betray each other and not plain screw things up. Super-Evil, invisible psychos with excellent people-skills and healthy relationships?! Hmmmm...

Once your mind has taken you to the point where these villains are real, well, it's open season for ideas like chem-trails!

Exactly, exactly, exactly! I couldn't have said this more brilliantly!

Originally posted by rainbowbear
reply to post by Poveglia

 

all i can say is if you claim you already are a non believer, why would anyone waste time trying to convince you of the opposite?

your cup is already full?

No I am asking why people believe the way to do to see if they bring up substantial or revelant evidence, I am open to change my views. I am not to closed minded to change my point of view, but if you are basing it on faith, the Bible, feelings, coincidences, or books written to appeal to people who already have a preconceived notion that these things are UNDOUBTEDLY TRUE, then I will remain a skeptic.

I am just here asking for the reasons that convinced you as an individual. That's all....

Honestly, the time some people spend delving over conspiracy theories would be MUCH better invested in solving the money problem. How do we get away from using it and acting dependent on it?

MONEY is the true bad guy here....

We keep pointing to banks, businesses, and cooperations like they are individuals but they are not. Of course business and the like ARE the bad guys. Because their SOUL PURPOSE is to make as much money as possible, period. The CEO's are not the villains, the villains are our own trains of thought.

If you form a home or internet small business, what is your soul purpose? To make enough cash to live on. Then your business booms, you must hire more people to help it run, and invest in more resources to please your growing clientele, which make you think of even more ways to increase your businesses revenue stream.

Now, 20 years later, you are a world-wide economic powerhouse of a company...Fortune 500 stuff. At this point you are so high on the food chain that you may inadvertently or intentionally hurt people and other businesses to get your way and even increase profits further. You may partner with unlikely allies, you may even outsource workers to maximize your profits. If your company crashes, it is so big that it may actually damage a nation's or world economy. You have led your company from the ground up, and the now board of directors and stock holders (even though you originally started the business by yourself) want to keep you leading the company to greatness and making them vast amounts of money, so they give you huge bonuses and perks to keep you from outsourcing to rivals. If something goes bad, your the fall guy. If some legislation threatens your profits, you must attempt to bride politicians or give them incentives to keep you looking good to the board and the stockholders. An aggressive (some people say it's ruthless) businessman, but overall a success to the company.

NOW, picture ONE THOUSAND COMPANIES, exactly like yours! And they will step on you in a heartbeat if you play nice.

See this scenario? If you agree with my above posting then it is NOT the Illuminati you hate, it is NOT the NWO you hate, it is NOT the CEOs you hate, and it is NOT the politicians you hate.................it is Capitalism itself....

anyone agree?

Aww I'm talking to myself now... ;(

reply to post by Poveglia


Ok what about the ones we can prove?
Like the CIA's MK ultra, or the gulf of tonkin false flag?
That's just 2 conspiracy theories that turned out to be conspiracy fact.

Look at all the conspiracies that are real and ask your self if you believe everything they tell you, or if you believe they may be lying to you.

If all of that was proven, undeniably as fact, then we wouldn't be discussing it on a conspiracy website.

We still would be talking about it, just like i used the gulf of tonkin false flag to point out evil people try to run the world without a care for human life. If 911 was "proven, undeniably as fact" then we would say that "blank thing or date was an inside job because nothing adds up just look at 911 we now know that was a inside job."

reply to post by Poveglia


Your post and this thread are absolutely brilliant. I have been watching this thread for a while just wondering where your patience and calm civility comes from. I would lose my cool in your shoes having to reply too many of these posts. I love reading these threads for the shear entertainment value but sometimes I come across a post that makes me want to blast them for their shear ignorance to reality.You took the time to talk sense and articulate what many of us (well at least myself) have wanted to put out here for a while. I hope you continue in some other threads especially ones of military relevance.

Unfortunately I do not think you will sway any conspiracy addicts but your posts may stop some new to the topics from going further down the delusional paths others have taken.

Originally posted by GunzCoty
reply to post by Poveglia

 

Ok what about the ones we can prove?
Like the CIA's MK ultra, or the gulf of tonkin false flag?
That's just 2 conspiracy theories that turned out to be conspiracy fact.

Look at all the conspiracies that are real and ask your self if you believe everything they tell you, or if you believe they may be lying to you.

If all of that was proven, undeniably as fact, then we wouldn't be discussing it on a conspiracy website.

We still would be talking about it, just like i used the gulf of tonkin false flag to point out evil people try to run the world without a care for human life. If 911 was "proven, undeniably as fact" then we would say that "blank thing or date was an inside job because nothing adds up just look at 911 we now know that was a inside job."

But thats the thing....because a few conspiracies have been proven, or were factual, doesnt allow for the whole lot of conspiracies to be taken as true until further notice.

Plus, these were exposed because enough evidence was found to prove it. And, since you bring this up, why not ALSO take a look at all the conspiracies that were proven FALSE. I believe that list is much more extensive.....

Plus, if we then look at both of these number rationally, we will see that based on the numbers and probability, it is much more likely that a majority of conspiracy theories are false as opposed to true. The ones that have been proven are basically the "winning lottery tickets" in the conspiracy theatre...........

After spending years on this site, I must say that the evidence towards a NWO is quite lacking.

People fail everyday in life. Most pick themselves up and try again until they succeed. But others don't want to admit to their failures, and try to blame outside factors for keeping them down.

I'm sure we have all seen those clips from the television show American Idol. You know... the ones where the guy is a terrible singer who can't hold a tune. When he finished singing, the lead judge explains to the singer that he is no good, and he will not move on to the next round. Instead of accepting this criticism, the singer storms out and declares that the whole show is BS and they didn't pick him because they didn't like the way he looked or some other trivial matter. Well, this is how some fragments of society act when it comes to their everyday lives. And many of those people end up on sites like these to vent their frustration and look for scapegoats.

In the past, it was easiest to blame your misfortunes on the Devil/Satan/Lucifer. Today, its easiest to blame your misfortunes on a hidden group with a secret agenda.

We probably don't have enough data yet, but I think in ten years time, we will realize that conspiracies rise and fall in congruence with the unemployment rate. When people are out of work, or their families are out of work, they have more time to listen and subscribe to crazy theories. When times get better, they begin to have a more positive outlook on the world around them.

Originally posted by ProtectedWitness
After spending years on this site, I must say that the evidence towards a NWO is quite lacking.

People fail everyday in life. Most pick themselves up and try again until they succeed. But others don't want to admit to their failures, and try to blame outside factors for keeping them down.

I'm sure we have all seen those clips from the television show American Idol. You know... the ones where the guy is a terrible singer who can't hold a tune. When he finished singing, the lead judge explains to the singer that he is no good, and he will not move on to the next round. Instead of accepting this criticism, the singer storms out and declares that the whole show is BS and they didn't pick him because they didn't like the way he looked or some other trivial matter. Well, this is how some fragments of society act when it comes to their everyday lives. And many of those people end up on sites like these to vent their frustration and look for scapegoats.

In the past, it was easiest to blame your misfortunes on the Devil/Satan/Lucifer. Today, its easiest to blame your misfortunes on a hidden group with a secret agenda.

We probably don't have enough data yet, but I think in ten years time, we will realize that conspiracies rise and fall in congruence with the unemployment rate. When people are out of work, or their families are out of work, they have more time to listen and subscribe to crazy theories. When times get better, they begin to have a more positive outlook on the world around them.

Then after researching the History of the Prussian Education system in Europe in the 1850s and WHO brought it to America in the 1900s--you realize that the conspiracy is obviously a corrupted Education System. One that churns out mindless consumers--yeah, i was one myself--- This is an important key to why things are so.

NONE of this is possible without our willing participation.

The conspiracy of the corruption of our Learning Institutions and the monopolies they have TODAY will prove without a shadow of a doubt that there are people that will stop at nothing for control of the population.

"Illuminati" is too cliché now. Better to look into its root definition. Are you aware of the meaning of the word? Its not us and them. Its dupes and adepts.

Originally posted by Grimpachi
reply to post by Poveglia

 

Your post and this thread are absolutely brilliant. I have been watching this thread for a while just wondering where your patience and calm civility comes from. I would lose my cool in your shoes having to reply too many of these posts. I love reading these threads for the shear entertainment value but sometimes I come across a post that makes me want to blast them for their shear ignorance to reality.You took the time to talk sense and articulate what many of us (well at least myself) have wanted to put out here for a while. I hope you continue in some other threads especially ones of military relevance.

Unfortunately I do not think you will sway any conspiracy addicts but your posts may stop some new to the topics from going further down the delusional paths others have taken.

Aww thanks a ton brother! I appreciate it! Honestly, my semi patience and semi calmness come from the fact where I just dont take stuff personal. I just picture these forums as a bunch of people sitting around, drinking a beer, and chatting about life, love, politics, and conspiracies.....

At least I hope you guys are having a beer =P I'm cracking one now....

reply to post by Poveglia


im out of suds but life is a trip, is it not?

Originally posted by ProtectedWitness
After spending years on this site, I must say that the evidence towards a NWO is quite lacking.

People fail everyday in life. Most pick themselves up and try again until they succeed. But others don't want to admit to their failures, and try to blame outside factors for keeping them down.

I'm sure we have all seen those clips from the television show American Idol. You know... the ones where the guy is a terrible singer who can't hold a tune. When he finished singing, the lead judge explains to the singer that he is no good, and he will not move on to the next round. Instead of accepting this criticism, the singer storms out and declares that the whole show is BS and they didn't pick him because they didn't like the way he looked or some other trivial matter. Well, this is how some fragments of society act when it comes to their everyday lives. And many of those people end up on sites like these to vent their frustration and look for scapegoats.

In the past, it was easiest to blame your misfortunes on the Devil/Satan/Lucifer. Today, its easiest to blame your misfortunes on a hidden group with a secret agenda.

We probably don't have enough data yet, but I think in ten years time, we will realize that conspiracies rise and fall in congruence with the unemployment rate. When people are out of work, or their families are out of work, they have more time to listen and subscribe to crazy theories. When times get better, they begin to have a more positive outlook on the world around them.

You know what....that is a BRILLIANT point that I never even thought to consider. Thumbs up to you! You opened my eyes on that possiblity (conspiracies rise and fall in congruence with the unemployment rate). I will definately have to attempt to scrutinize this correlation. Thank you sir!