Does the Catholic Church teach from the Bible?

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by Augustine62

 

Quick question: Are Catholics encouraged to read the word themselves through which they might continue to build their relationship with God, and increase in Christ as his bride, and what is meant by "the church" if it isn't the body of all true believers? Is "the bride" an institutionalized religious organization, or the people of God? I'm a little confused about this idea of exclusivity of the RCC as the Bride.

I consider myself a Bride of Christ and I'm not Roman Catholic. Am I disqualified, even though I love Him?

edit on 20-8-2012 by NewAgeMan because: typo

I'll answer as if your questions were numbered:
1)Reading the Bible is encouraged. It is, after all, the word of God.
2)We are called to increase in holiness. All relationships are analogous to this as to know, perfectly, another, is to build a relationship to its logical end: unity. To be in union with Christ is to be conformed to Christ and to be in a relationship with Him.
3) The Church is two parts, but not separated though by our limited means and understanding (think the human being: body and soul, but we only experience them together while seeing just one): visible-- the Catholic Church and invisible to us, the Mystical Body of Christ. This is the proper understanding of "No Salvation Outside the Church". For a forceful and not-dry explanation, see the following link: jonbhorton.wordpress.com...
4) Both, and the same. Cf. Baltimore Catechism #3 Questions 510-513; Catechism of Pope Saint Pius X Questions 27-29; and this amazing two-part series by Fr. Brian Harrison: 1) www.rtforum.org... 2) www.rtforum.org...
This Franciscan Brother does a very good explanation in less than 10 minutes on this video:
www.youtube.com... ( I tried to use the youtube code, but it keeps messing up... )

Hope I've answered your questions!!

I'll try to answer the other legitimate questions tomorrow. A bit late here.

reply to post by Sublimecraft

I would suggest that this is the scripture that the OP is referring to. It's also the 1 piece of scripture that the Catholic Church hangs its hat on regarding being given their authority. Interpretations (there's that bloody word again) of this passage, according to Catholic doctrine, verifies Peter as the "rock" (or foundation stone and later the Vicar of Christ or Pope) that Christ said he would build his church upon - so in effect the OP's comment is correct - Christ did indeed intend to form a church well before Constantines little "epiphany" some 300 years later.

Okay let's assume this interpretation to give credence to the idea Christ wanted a Church.

Begs the question...

Why didn't he himself actively start one... or more explicitly state one to be started?

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy

Why didn't he himself actively start one... or more explicitly state one to be started?

Firstly, let me clarify something:-

Church=group of devout people with a common understanding of Christ's message of peace and salvation, NOT a set of bricks whos overlords are ornately decorated in Gold and Jewels, so..........

"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church"........

When I read those 19 words, it appears to me that:-

1. He did actively start a church - firstly through his ministry whilst on Earth and then via Peter once he ascended.
2. "I will build my church" is a clear and explicit statement, imo, for an intention to start a church. "I will", being future tense, appears to me to mean it has not yet happened but it will eventually occur.

Jesus, before his death, had a massive church and 2000 years later it is still going strong so, imo, there is truth to the story otherwise it would have fizzled shortly after he was crucified.

I care not whether one is a labelled a Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Protestant or other - the history of the break-up of denominations is pure politics and the "overlords" of those sets of bricks do not represent the "church"(or "body of Christ) - a lot of them are the Pharisees and Sadducees of today, imo, but what is undeniable is that the individuals who attend those sets of bricks all believe in Christ and a believer forms part of his church.

What say you LL ?

Text"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it". Matt 16:18

reply to post by Sublimecraft


That is one of the most argued verses known to exist in theology. Even though it was derived from the Greek manuscripts it was more than likely spoken in Aramaic or Hebrew originally and it was Jewish. This church that the Jewish Jesus established was first introduced to the Jewish culture and not the Gentile Roman culture. They had only the Old Testament manuscripts and the first body of Christ was in Jerusalem. Not Rome by whom it was stolen.

The Roman Catholic church establishment came into power by manipulation and force and not by decree of Jesus as is parroted. Its history is a history of shame and deception as well as murder and torture. The true church does exist today in the Christian Jews and not through the hundreds of other cults in the world. A claim is not necessarily the truth. The Christian Jews are the true church that Jesus established through Peter. The Roman church came through Paul and the Gentiles

In reference to Paul -- Act 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

The many different churches and cults claim many things that are not scriptural and teach that the authority of a few chosen are what you must accept but this is not the teachings of Christ. Christ Jesus teaches that the gospel is preached to all people and not a select few. The original congregations were formed by the people taking turns at leading the congregation. Each year the congregates would vote the overseer of the congregation.
These overseers were known as Bishops in the early churches. As it eventually turned into a political mess they wound up with what you see today but only by force of the Roman Empire.

Sublime- Excellent basic defense of that verse. I'll build on it here (note, this is just me copying and pasting something I'd written before and saved, so I'm not ignoring the other questions and am just crunched for time)

An understanding of the actual Greek and Aramaic helps, but websites like bible.cc and biblestudytools.com make this easy with interlinear outlines, concordances, etc. For example:

"13 And Jesus came into the quarters of Cesarea Philippi: and he asked his disciples, saying: Whom do men say that the Son of man is? 14 But they said: Some John the Baptist, and other some Elias, and others Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 15 Jesus saith to them: But whom do you say that I am? 16 Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answering said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. 20 Then he commanded his disciples, that they should tell no one that he was Jesus the Christ. "- Matthew 16:13-20

This entire passage is the key, if you will, to unlocking the "duh!" aspect of the Church being Catholic and St. Peter being the head honcho on earth, including his successor.

To understand this requires some ability to understand language outside of personal/colloquial understanding. The Calvary Chapel types will be extremely challenged by this because most of their doctrine comes from this very approach. It's harder for someone with no exposure to a language outside of modern, bastardized English to understand. In a lot, most languages actually, and specifically Latin, Greek, etc, the words all have a relationship to each other.

Let's explore it, with emphasis on the key passage in verses 17 and 18 of the 16th chapter of St. Matthew's Gospel:

...: Blessed art thou (makarios, blessed; insinuates being made larger through God, though small on one's own), Simon Bar-Jonah (OK, so, he has a proper name and Peter is a nickname.. how interesting, let's see where this leads!), ... thou art Peter (Petros, small pebble) and on this rock (Petra, big rock...) I will build my Church.


3107 makários (from mak-, "become long, large") – properly, when God extends His benefits (the advantages He confers); blessed.

3107 /makários ("blessed") describes a believer in enviable ("fortunate") position from receiving God's provisions (favor) – which (literally) extend ("make long, large") His grace (benefits). This happens with receiving (obeying) the Lord's inbirthings of faith. Hence, faith (4102 /pístis) and 3107 (makários) are closely associated (Ro 4:5-7,14:22,23; Rev 14:12,13).

4074 Pétros (a masculine noun) – properly, a stone (pebble), such as a small rock found along a pathway. 4074 /Pétros ("small stone") then stands in contrast to 4073 /pétra ("cliff, boulder," Abbott-Smith).



So, Simon Bar-Jonah is the name, he is a pebble and on a big rock Christ will build His Church. Well gee, Mr. Catholic, it's plain as day, Peter is just a pebble and Christ, the Big Rock will be the foundation. Right? Wrong, actually.

We must go back to the watering down of language. Makarios, Blessed, isn't just "hey dude, i'll make sure you get rich and stuff, k brah?". It goes directly into understanding that passage. Blessed means to take something small and make it larger. Well, that bears scrutiny as applied to this whole pebble/Rock thing, doesn't it? I mean, everyone knows it refers to Christ and such, right? Wrong. But with salvation needing actual declarations of faith in Christ, particularly Jesus as the Christ, and Christ being the cornerstone, anyone who has a modicum of experience knows a cornerstone must be placed on a foundation- in this case, Christ is letting Peter be the foundation on which to lay Himself, is He not?

So, what is Jesus saying to St. Peter? He's simply saying I'll make you larger because of your faith, Simon Bar-Jonah. You pebble, don't you know I'll make you a giant rock? Oh, and I'll give you the keys to Heaven as well, binding and loosing.

So, wait, St. Peter was basically given the responsibility and office of what is only analogous to the Pope? Well, I'll be...

The language doesn't lie, and neither does Sacred Scripture. No amount of "but... but..." can fight this truth.

Lets think about who compiled compiled the Bible. Before the Protestant Reformation, Catholics wrote the only Bibles in existence. The King James Bible and all Protestant Bibles are based on the Catholic Bible, but many words were changed to justify Protestant beliefs. You see, Catholicism was the only game in town for over a thousand years until the Eastern Orthodox Church split with Rome and the Protestant Reformation further splintered Christians. The doctrines of Catholic faith have not significantly changed in 2000 years! Yet Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 11:2 those who "hold fast to traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter". In 2 Thessalonians 3:6 Paul says "Shun any brother who conducts himself not according to tradition they received from us." The Gospel of John 21:25 states that not everything Jesus said was recorded in scripture.

So from the Resurrection of Christ until 1000AD the only Christians were Catholic. Catholic literally means "Universal". Catholics read the bible, study it, and believe it is the inspired word of God.

Originally posted by spoor

Originally posted by Augustine62
Well, in terms of the Catholic Church, which is the Church Christ founded,

No it is not actually, that is just a claim that they make - it is just a church that worships the pope and Mary.

en.wikipedia.org... explains it

And the church of Rome hide kiddy fiddlers.

edit on 20-8-2012 by spoor because: (no reason given)

Do you not know your Christian History? Jesus said to Peter -you are the Rock and on this Rock I will build my Church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it. The first century Christians earnestly spread the gospel around the globe and the faith quickly became Universal the literal translation of Catholic. For the first 1000 years the Catholic Church was the only church studying scripture, practicing sacraments, celebrating Mass, baptizing and serving those in need.

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy

Well, in terms of the Catholic Church, which is the Church Christ founded

Really? Christ founded the Catholic Church?...

The Council of Nicaea was a few hundred years after he died..

Either way... Christ didn't form a church....

Am I wrong? New to me.

edit on 20-8-2012 by Lucid Lunacy because: (no reason given)

The Council of Nicea was a meeting of the church's bishops who all had dioceses (regions) for which they were responsible to share the faith. These bishops who were originally ordained by Peter and then by subsequent popes. This all began in year number 1....so to say it did not become official until the year 300 (approx) is ludicrous. That is like says the United States did not exist until the most recent amendment was ratified. Everything that is Christian today was founded by the Roman Catholic Church: Churches, the Bible, Mass, Sacraments, Priests, Bishops, etc.

reply to post by Augustine62


Thanks for the expansion of the verse and analysis of same - thats some rather interesting points made.

At the end of the day, my personal instincts tell me that salvation and eternal life is rather easy to attain - all that is needed is a pledge that Jesus is the Christ - the Son of the Living God. This must be from the heart and NOT just lip-service.

His ministry has stood firm with the innocents through 2000 years of blood-shed and the end is getting closer:-

"you shall be hated of all nations for my names sake"

Well - thats pretty much the situation globally at the moment - you only have to mention the word JESUS and people get their backs up immediately and spew hate, plus, imo, Revelations is playing out to the letter:
-Deception/delusion
-Our fight is against Principalities, powers and rulers in high places
-Soon you will not be able to buy or sell unless part of the "system"
-Persia is rising

And........to top it off now we have UFO's and the whole shebang - my instincts tell me that with it will come the great "falling away" from the faith when people are deluded into believing a new gospel.

Thanks again

Ahh yes. Interpretation of the Bible

For providing reasons when you know you're right and providing excuses when you know you're wrong

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


I am a devout Catholic and had a very ill child. One night I was in church praying before the exposed Blessed Sacrament (the Bread that is Consecrated into the Body, Blood Soul and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ) and I prayed that Gods will be done. In my mind I offered my child up on the altar as Abraham offered his own son and I said to God...you can have her if it is your will because I know your ways are best. At that moment I felt as if a statue in the sanctuary moved. It was the Corpus (the Body of Christ on the Cross) and His head moved lifting up his chin and I heard a voice in my head telling me the prayer was being delivered to Our Father.

Long Story Short...daughter miraculously healed afterwards on All Saints Day!!!!!

Originally posted by Missing Blue Sky

Originally posted by spoor

Originally posted by Augustine62
Well, in terms of the Catholic Church, which is the Church Christ founded,

No it is not actually, that is just a claim that they make - it is just a church that worships the pope and Mary.

en.wikipedia.org... explains it

And the church of Rome hide kiddy fiddlers.

edit on 20-8-2012 by spoor because: (no reason given)

Do you not know your Christian History? Jesus said to Peter -you are the Rock and on this Rock I will build my Church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it. The first century Christians earnestly spread the gospel around the globe and the faith quickly became Universal the literal translation of Catholic. For the first 1000 years the Catholic Church was the only church studying scripture, practicing sacraments, celebrating Mass, baptizing and serving those in need.

Do you know your Christian history? During the first 1000 years the Catholic church did everything they could to hide, distort and twist the words of Jesus, until it became a divisive and hateful body, killing those who would dare to question their authority. They literally turned Christianity and the church into an idol.

THE COMPLETE CANONS OF THE SYNOD OF LAODICEA IN PHRYGIA PACATIANA

CANON XXXIV.

No Christian shall forsake the martyrs of Christ, and turn to false martyrs, that is, to those of the heretics, or those who formerly were heretics; for they are aliens from God. Let those, therefore, who go after them, be anathema.

CANON XXXV.

CHRISTIANS must not forsake the Church of God, and go away and invoke angels and gather assemblies, which things are forbidden. If, therefore, any one shall be found engaged in this covert idolatry, let him be anathema; for he has forsaken our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and has gone over to idolatry.

CANON XXXVI.

THEY who are of the priesthood, or of the clergy, shall not be magicians, enchanters, mathematicians, or astrologers; nor shall they make what are called amulets, which are chains for their own souls. And those who wear such, we command to be cast out of the Church.

CANON XXXVII.

IT is not lawful to receive portions sent from the feasts of Jews or heretics, nor to feast together with them.

CANON XXXVIII.

IT is not lawful to receive unleavened bread from the Jews, nor to be partakers of their impiety.

CANON XXXIX.

IT is not lawful to feast together with the heathen, and to be partakers of their godlessness.

Matthew 22
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

edit on 21-8-2012 by windword because: (no reason given)

reply to post by NewAgeMan


good post....the christian belief matches the jewish bride and groom tradition....and the RCC doesn't have too many scripture readers, nor does the general believing bunch.
about the rapture....the belivers are the bride...and the groom has to patiently wait for his father to tell him when to go steal the bride...as a huge surprise to all....no one knows the day or hour even....only the father of the groom.. .then they have seven days of feasting......cool huh!!

reply to post by windword


Wow....my paradigm is so different than yours. I learned of a church established in Rome by Peter and the other disciples and Paul. I know of the journeys of Mary, Martha and Lazarus into Southern Gaul to spread the word, the Journeys of Paul and his extension of the faith to Gentiles, I know of Matthews journey to India to spread the Gospel. I know of communities who lived in mountains and caves and all the while they celebrated the Eucharist. That is what it is all about. Jesus here with us intimately. He allows up to consume Him body Blood, soul and divinity in His ultimate sacrifice of himself. The Catholic church is the continuation of the Jewish teachings in the OT-the fulfillment.

I have learned and taught to hundreds of schoolchildren the stories of the early Christian martyrs by Nero and the Romans. I know of the multitude of Saints who have gruesomely given up their lives for the one true faith.

For me it is not an ascetic conversation about who is right and who is wrong, for me it is a living breathing thing...the Church, My Church-the Catholic Church. It is a continuous and unbroken line of believers who have let nothing bring them down.

reply to post by windword


why did you post those old canon points? The Canon is the rule of law for a period of time and can become outdated. Those were written to assist the faithful with issues of the time. If you read today's Canon it will speak of such topical issues as porn and hypnosis. In another 1000 years when future generations read our Canon it may seem odd to them too.

The Canon are a set of guidelines. The Bible is not the Canon.

reply to post by Missing Blue Sky


I'm not even going to get into my disgust for a religion that believes their god lusts after a human blood sacrifice to protect us against his own wrath, or the cannibalistic qualities of the Eucharist.

But speaking of saints who were murdered for a cause, I refer you to indigenous people all over the world, who fought and lost their lives to Christians who wanted their land and their resources.

In the first few decades since 1492, it was thought that Indians did not have souls because they were "animals" in human form. Therefore, it was believed they could be hunted down like animals, which they were. It was only in 1530 CE that the Pope declared that the Indians were human. Having established their humanity, it was decided that they must be inducted into Christianity. As the Indians were unwilling, this was accomplished by force. Though the change in their status from animal to human might appear to be an improvement, in reality, little changed in their plight.

Unfortunately for the Indians, with the arrival of Christians would come the intolerance for their indigenous ways of life:
The Indian chief Hatuey fled with his people but was captured and burned alive.

As"they were tying him to the stake a Franciscan friar urged him to take Jesus to his heart so that his soul might go to heaven, rather than descend into hell. Hatuey replied that if heaven was where the Christians went, he would rather go to hell."

What happened to his people was described by an eyewitness:
"The Spaniards found pleasure in inventing all kinds of odd cruelties ... They built a long gibbet, long enough for the toes to touch the ground to prevent strangling, and hanged thirteen [natives] at a time in honor of Christ Our Saviour and the twelve Apostles... then, straw was wrapped around their torn bodies and they were burned alive.

freetruth.50webs.org...

Originally posted by Missing Blue Sky
reply to post by windword

 

why did you post those old canon points? The Canon is the rule of law for a period of time and can become outdated. Those were written to assist the faithful with issues of the time. If you read today's Canon it will speak of such topical issues as porn and hypnosis. In another 1000 years when future generations read our Canon it may seem odd to them too.

The Canon are a set of guidelines. The Bible is not the Canon.

I posted those canons because you asked another poster if they knew "Christian history." Those cannons are Catholic Christian history, that is most unchristian. They represent how the church, from early on ignored and twisted the words of Jesus, and turned the church itself into an idol!

I would suggest that each word in scripture is there for a purpose, and I've noticed that nobody has raised the issue of the location Caesarea Philippi as part of the interpretation. And what is the biggest feature in the area? A huge mountain of rock.

"This city, which sits at the foot of Mount Hermon, butts up against a large cliff, referred to as the ‘Rock of the Gods’, in reference to the many shrines built against it. Shrines to Caesar, Pan and another god (possibly the fertility goddess Nemesis) were all built up against this cliff. In the center of the Rock of the Gods is a huge cave, from which a stream flowed (after 19th century earthquakes, the stream began flowing out from the rock beneath the mouth of the cave). This cave was called the “Gates of Hades”, because it was believed that Baal would enter and leave the underworld through places where water came out of it." www.fishingtheabyss.com...

Originally posted by Missing Blue Sky

So from the Resurrection of Christ until 1000AD the only Christians were Catholic.

I have mentioned in other threads how trinity Christians like to rewrite history. The above is proof. The one God Church existed before the Catholic Church. Even tertullian, around 200AD, admitted that the trinity Christians were small in number compared to the one God Christians.

Its so misunderstood! We don't worship Mary or the Saints. Frankly I'm tired of this misconception. How many times do those, that know nothing of the Faith, have to be told that we ask for intercession (to pray for us) or (to ask God to forgive us, guide us and grant us the grace and mercy we need). Yes we pray directly to "our Lord" Jesus Christ! No we don't think that salvation comes through Mary or the Saints. Research it and you will understand.