Have i been duped? Jesus Christ is legit ?

Originally posted by NewAgeMan

Originally posted by g146541
reply to post by Th0r

 

There may have been a Jesus, but several men since have claimed the same.
There are no living witnesses of Jesus's miracles that still live.

That may not be true, not if Jesus did what he did in such a way that there are vectors in time and space that we could use to verify and contextualize his work in time and history. Then we might see, given that he would also have been aware of this, and was working to a schedule known well in advance, that indeed we ourselves are living witnesses to a Jesus miracle, even one involving his work leading to the cross, one left just for us to discover at this moment in time and history (since we possess the astronomical physics models), where on discovery of it, left reeling and floored by the implications, we exclaim to our dismay, if not delight - HOW DID HE KNOW?!

Here's the info

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
The Real Star of Bethlehem (part 1 of 7)

www.bethlehemstar.net...

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Former Publisher and Editor, Scientific American magazine, and President, American Association for the Advancement of Science

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Originally posted by NewAgeMan

The Day of the Cross
www.bethlehemstar.net...

reply to post by ahnggk

2000 years ago where Jesus lived and preached, there were little, if any temptations as compared today. It's probably much much easier back then to not be sexually charged, to not have lust burning you:

You're decieving yourself if you think no one suffered temptation in his time or that it was minimal. Perhaps you need to go reread all of the hebrew bible to see what befell Israel. By the time Jesus came he found Israel in the state of Laodicea and he will find the modern church in the state of Laodicea when he returns because we're mirroring Israel, the only difference is we're under his Grace. In fact God railed at Israel and Judah for "neighing like stallions after their neighbor's wives" so yes sexual immorality was rampant.

Not only that but how many people turned away from Jesus because he advocated they sell all their possesions and give to the poor? There were many yes? The same sins befell them as befell every man since Adam fell. The whole reason the second covenant was made was because:

Hebrews 8:7-12

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

Pay particular attention to the underlined portion "because finding fault with them". The fault was not the law the fault he found was in Israel, they could not keep the law, they were found guilty of breaking every one of them before Moses came down from Mt. Sinai and many many more times as the centuries wore on which is what all the exiles were about. By the time Jezebel and Ahab rollled around in Elijah's day, only 7000 in all of Israel were found still faithful to God, everyone else fell to Jezebel's Ba'al worship and all the sexually immoral acts that came with. You seem to have this fantasy that Israel was perfect, and i can assure you they were far from it. They were so imperfect it caused them to miss their own Messiah and to this day they still don't see him when he's right in front of their faces.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
Hebrews 8:7-12

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

Underline noted.

However, it is suspected that Paul wrote the Hebrews.

www.gotquestions.org...

First verse shows his lack of understanding of the original teachings. The only new covenant is Jesus, no new teachings. The teachings they had before Jesus was false, it's antichristian.

We lost the original teachings so Jesus came.

reply to post by ahnggk

Underline noted.

However, it is suspected that Paul wrote the Hebrews.

www.gotquestions.org...

First verse shows his lack of understanding of the original teachings. The only new covenant is Jesus, no new teachings. The teachings they had before Jesus was false, it's antichristian.

We lost the original teachings so Jesus came.

The original scriptures were not lost, they were buried under a mountain of fence laws that not even the people who erected those fencelaws, the pharisees themselves, would even obey them. They erected those fence laws in the Babylonian exile to keep believers from even getting close to breaking them and it got the the point the focus was the fence laws themselves.

Matthew 23:1-30

Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. 4 For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 5 But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments. 6 They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, 7 greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, ‘Rabbi, Rabbi.’ 8 But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. 11 But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.

13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. 14 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.

15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

16 “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it.’ 17 Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies[d] the gold? 18 And, ‘Whoever swears by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gift that is on it, he is obliged to perform it.’ 19 Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift? 20 Therefore he who swears by the altar, swears by it and by all things on it. 21 He who swears by the temple, swears by it and by Him who dwells in it. 22 And he who swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by Him who sits on it.

23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. 24 Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!

25 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.

27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. 28 Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 and say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.’

No new teachings after Jesus? Then you can consume blood and commit sexual immorality and eat foods and drink offered to idols? The Council of Jerusalem is nothing then? We still have moral laws. He didn't leave us lawless and without direction, that is what the Apostles were for. They learned from Him and they passed it to us.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
No new teachings after Jesus? Then you can consume blood and commit sexual immorality and eat foods and drink offered to idols? The Council of Jerusalem is nothing then? We still have moral laws. He didn't leave us lawless and without direction, that is what the Apostles were for. They learned from Him and they passed it to us.

Haven't you read me say, not all of the Bible is inspired by God? When people were sacrificing animals, etc, they weren't sacrificing to God, they were sacrificing to fallen angels. The Bible in some parts is corrupted. It did not reflect the mind of God which is the same always.

Some aspects of the Council is wrong. They let their own will decide the fate of the Gentiles, not the Will of the Father. They failed to see the spirit that is in work with Paul, the spirit of the antichrist. They compromised.

Either the apostles after Jesus left were corrupted or the written account of them in the Bible.

The original scriptures were not lost, they were buried under a mountain of fence laws

What's the difference really? Does it even matter?

Lost, hidden, buried. They all have one thing in common, you have no access to them! They all achieve the same purpose. If you lose or hide or bury something, you can't use them can you?

reply to post by DeadSeraph

You are anti-christian. You know as well as I do that you will systematically discredit and attempt to belittle anyone who does come forward and claim to be a "REAL" Christian.

Having a certain P.O.V on the bible and discussing scripture with christians does not make me an "anti-christian". If I discredit Christians, its through h their scripture.

I find it strange how people who don't believe in Jesus Christ at all, are all so eager to dissuade someone who wants to know more about him. If you think it's all hogwash, why do you have so much emotion invested in the subject, and why do you see it as your duty to interject your non-belief, and attempt to dissuade someone who wishes to learn?

I think you've mistaken me for an atheist.

reply to post by ahnggk


Paul never denied Christ came in the flesh or denied the relationship between the Father and the Son, what are you talking about?

Originally posted by DeadSeraph

Originally posted by JesuitGarlic
reply to post by DeadSeraph

 

Please elaborate on the 7th Day Adventist doctrine which is not in the Bible...I am SDA and will be able to show you exactly where it is in the bible so obviously I would like to clear up any confusion when you give a recommendation against my church if you are only operating on incomplete information.

I figured you'd pop in

7th day adventists teach that Jesus Christ and the Arch Angel Michael are the same entity. This is heretical, and not in the King James bible (no matter how much you want it to be).

I agree with your assertion that different denominations are neither perfect or completely flawed. People ultimately answer to God, and only He alone truly knows our hearts. But some doctrine can be destructive, and it is my personal opinion that equating Jesus Christ with an Arch Angel is one such doctrine.

Just so your reading of my supporting evidence isn't framed the wrong way I will say straight away that by calling Arch-angel Michael to be another name for Jesus we are not saying that Jesus is a created being by any means (but rather taking on the other meaning of 'angel' being 'message' or in this instance as arch-angel to mean 'highest message to the world').

Let us first look at some instances where a particular Angel (messenger) of the Lord claiming the titles of God, recognized as God and honoured as God is given to us:
- Judges chapter 6...concerning Gideon

Judges 6:12 And the angel of the Lord appeared to him...[verse 14] Then the LORD [Strong's #3068 Yhvh] turned to him and said...

Here we have an angel of the Lord identified as YHVH, the God of Israel and if no one has ever seen the Father then guess who it is then...

- Judges 13 - The Birth of Samson

[verse 3]And the angel of the Lord appeared to the woman...[verse 22]And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God [Strong's #0430].

This angel is identified by Manoah as God...if they had seen God the Father then his concern of them surely dying might be justified but they didn't see the Father, they saw His Son.

- Exodus 3 - Moses at the Burning Bushing

[verse 2] And the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush...[verse 4] And when the LORD [Strong's #3068 Yhvh] saw that he turned aside to see, God [Strong's #0430] called to him out of the middle of the bush...[v. 5] Then He said, "Do not come near here; remove your sandals from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground." [v. 6] He said also, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." Then Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God.

So an angel (messenger) talks to Moses and this messenger is identified as LORD, God, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob and says the ground Moses is on now is holy and more reverence should be paid. Surely this would be blasphemy for this 'angel of the Lord' to claim and demand such things if he was in fact one of the created angels. It is not blasphemy because the meaning once again is messenger and not a reference to a created being.

- Genesis 31:11-13

[v.11] And the angel of God spake unto me in a dream... [v.13] I am the God of Bethel...

--------
What does the name Michael actually mean?
The name Michael is of Hebrew origin, and is a word compiled of three separate hebrew words. These are:

(1) miy - This word is an interrogative pronoun of persons, according to Strong’s, and literally means “Who?”
(2) kiy - This is a conjunction, connecting miy with el.
(3) el - This word is normally translated “God” and refers most often to the God of heaven.
The name therefore literally means, as Strong’s puts it: Who (is) like God?
-------
What does “archangel” mean? According to Strong’s, it means “chief angel.” Thayer’s Greek Definition says it means, “Chief of the angels.” So Michael is the chief angel, or chief of all the angels of God.

The Hebrew equivalent of “chief” is the Hebrew word sar which can be translated either chief, prince, ruler, or captain.
-----
Other parallels which shows they are the same

Daniel 12:1-2
(1) And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
(2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Note that it is only after Michael stands up that those who sleep in the grave “shall awake.” Now read what Jesus said of himself:

John 5:25-29
(25) Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
(26) For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
(27) And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
(28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
(29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The parallel between verse 29 and Daniel 12:2 is clearly seen. At the appearance and sound of both Michael and Jesus Christ the dead will rise from the grave. Who then is the one who will raise the dead? Michael or Jesus? Paul has the answer:

1 Thessalonians 4:16
(16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first

Michael, who is really Jesus Christ, is the one with whose voice “of the archangel” raises the dead… “some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt!”
source

------
From some logical reasoning - (We are told of 3 arch-angels (highest angels) in the bible but surely there can only be one at a time)

Lucifer was the original arch-angel in heaven and understood to be the highest created being. How could Michael defeat Lucifer if Lucifer is higher/more powerful than Michael? Well it is because Michael (the one who is what God is, God's highest message to the world Jesus) is higher and more powerful than any created being. When Lucifer fell he was replaced by Gabriel who then became the highest amongst the angels. But Michael who is also given the title arch-angel is not an angel, He is the highest message/messenger and captain of the angels and heavenly hosts but not a created being angel himself.

Don't think that Adventists are being heretical in viewing Michael as God, it is just like viewing Immanuel (name given to Jesus meaning 'God with us') as God.
----
Even the top occultist sources infer that Michael is Jesus. Here we have Crowley describing his god Satan.

It is through this weakness that the perfected man, the Sun, is of dual nature, and his evil twin slays him in his glory. So the triumphant Lord of Heaven, the beloved of Apollo and the Muses is brought down into the dust...
source: p. 635, chapter 67 Confessions by Aleister Crowley

Considering that Satan wants to see himself as God's equal and that in the occult/New Age they call Jesus darkness thus the use of the words 'his evil twin', we see here that Crowley admits Jesus is the one who slays him and causes him to be 'brought down into the dust' (thrown out of heaven and on to the Earth). So if the Bible says it was Michael and a follower of Satan admits it was Jesus then perhaps like the Bible heavily infers, they are one and the same.
-----
Now I can do this kind of analysis on probably another doctrine you'll raise eventually, the investigative judgment, and with the same results of showing you that the doctrine is there and perfectly justified in the Bible, although it will most likely be as equally time consuming. Rather than bring up this one next that most people would not be all that familiar and not be all that interested in hearing about I would rather bring up the topics of:
- hell fire (burning until ashes not forever, consequences last forever not the burning)
- the state of the dead (the dead remain in a state described like a sleep, when one dies they don't go to heaven or receive judgment straight away)
- that we are still expected to keep the Divine Law (therefore the 4th commandment of the Sabbath as well as part of the new covenant terms)

It is my understanding (although I am open to correction) that these are by-in-large completely unique doctrines to Seventh-Day Adventists (except for perhaps some minor denominations like 7th-Day Baptist or Puritan that might hold the 3rd one of those only).

Because it is my contention that all other denominations do not teach and practice correctly these fundamentals of doctrine then they are all false prophets unto God's Word and I will show this in my next post(s).

Also, in a sense that all the other denominations (expect JW's but their other doctrines are another story lol) don't teach Michael is but another name for Jesus and pay Michael, this highest message/messenger of the Lord due respect, then they are the ones being 'heretical' hehe, food for thought!

reply to post by Th0r


there are corrupt people in some churches yes but not all of them. It warns against false prophets in the bible in which jesus says you can tell them by their works. Instead of just listening to what a pastor is saying watch what he does to minister. If their works dont match thier words get out.

Originally posted by The GUT

Originally posted by corporateslave
Jesus was a buddhist

Nah, couldn't have been. If he had he would have cast the demon out of the Dalai Lama's state oracle and then no more Buddhism:

The first Dalai Lama didn't exist until 1391. But if Jesus WAS around, he probably would've pitched in. He was known for his demonology talent!

Also, Jesus was most certainly influenced by Buddhism. What religion do you suppose the Magi from the east were?

JESUS: "A foolish man, which built his house on sand."
BUDDHA: "Perishable is a city built on sand." (30)

JESUS: "Therefore confess your sins one to another, and pray one for another, that you may be healed."
BUDDHA: "Confess before the world the sins you have committed." (31)

JESUS: "In him we have redemption through his blood, the foregiveness of sins."
BUDDHA: "Let all sins that were committed in this world fall on me, that the world may be delivered." (32)

JESUS: "Do to others as you would have them do to you."
BUDDHA: "Consider others as yourself." (33)

JESUS: "If anyone strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also."
BUDDHA: "If anyone should give you a blow with his hand, with a stick, or with a knife, you should abandon all desires and utter no evil words." (34)

JESUS: "Love your enemies, do good to those who hate, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you."
BUDDHA: "Hatreds do not cease in this world by hating, but by love: this is an eternal truth. Overcome anger by love, overcome evil by good." (35)

JESUS: "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you."
BUDDHA: "Let your thoughts of boundless love pervade the whole world." (36)

JESUS: "Let anyone among you who is without sin be the first to cast a stone at her."
BUDDHA: "Do not look at the faults of others or what others have done or not done; observe what you yourself have done and have not done." (37)

JESUS: "You father in heaven makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous."
BUDDHA: "The light of the sun and the moon illuminates the whole world, both him who does well and him who does ill, both him who stands high and him who stands low." (38)

JESUS: "If you wish to be perfect, go sell your possessions, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven."
BUDDHA: "The avaricious do not go to heaven, the foolish do not extol charity. The wise one, however, rejoicing in charity, becomes thereby happy in the beyond." (39)

www.thezensite.com...

reply to post by ahnggk

Haven't you read me say, not all of the Bible is inspired by God? When people were sacrificing animals, etc, they weren't sacrificing to God, they were sacrificing to fallen angels. The Bible in some parts is corrupted. It did not reflect the mind of God which is the same always

The bible is not corrupt. It's your interpretation of it that is wrong.

Some aspects of the Council is wrong. They let their own will decide the fate of the Gentiles, not the Will of the Father. They failed to see the spirit that is in work with Paul, the spirit of the antichrist. They compromised

All i am seeing is your opinion, no proof? There was nothing wrong with Paul other than he stated his opinions and they too were recorded. Alot of what Paul preached can be found in the OT, he relied heavily on the prophets. What aspect of the Council of Jerusalem is wrong hm? Do you see a problem with not being forced to learn the laws of Moses? Do you see a problem with not being allowed to consume blood, or eating food offered to other gods or abstaining from sexual immorality? You are not reading between the lines.

Lost, hidden, buried. They all have one thing in common, you have no access to them! They all achieve the same purpose. If you lose or hide or bury something, you can't use them can you?

New Covenant of grace. We don't have 603 jewish civil laws.

reply to post by windword


That's interesting, windword. The first few especially, but it seems a little more of a reach as you go down the list. I do agree that folk of all ilk and philosophy do find common spiritual truths, so I personally don't interpret it to mean that Jesus ever studied Buddhism, and his overall message certainly veers away from the philosophy.

I have no doubt, however, that Jesus would enjoy a spirito-philosophical discussion with anyone.

reply to post by The GUT


When I studied ancient world history in college, back in the '70's, I learned that philosophers used to go on junkets to philosophical "capitals" to discuss and debate each other. Athens, Babylon, Jerusalem, Memphis, just to name a few, all held such conventions, and the likes of Plato and and Pythagorus participated.

Plato left Attica along with other friends of Socrates and traveled for the next twelve years. To all accounts it appears that he left Athens with Euclides for Megara, then went to visit Theodorus in Cyrene, moved on to study with the Pythagoreans in Italy, and finally to Egypt. During this period he studied the philosophy of his contemporaries, geometry, geology, astronomy and religion.

The other two philosophers who were to influence Pythagoras, and to introduce him to mathematical ideas, were Thales and his pupil Anaximander who both lived on Miletus. In [8] it is said that Pythagoras visited Thales in Miletus when he was between 18 and 20 years old. By this time Thales was an old man and, although he created a strong impression on Pythagoras, he probably did not teach him a great deal. However he did contribute to Pythagoras's interest in mathematics and astronomy, and advised him to travel to Egypt to learn more of these subjects. Thales's pupil, Anaximander, lectured on Miletus and Pythagoras attended these lectures. Anaximander certainly was interested in geometry and cosmology and many of his ideas would influence Pythagoras's own views.

I wouldn't be surprised to find out that some ancient ledger lists Jesus as an attendee or speaker at one of these conventions!

you may be asking the wrong question. no one denomination has got everything right, and never will.

if you had 15 people with no religious background read the bible, you would have 15 diffenet opinions about what certain parts meant. does this make them corrupt? no, of course not. but that is why there are so many different denomonations. everyone is always out looking for the right answers that they will never find. (although some are arrogant enough to believe it)

you must find your own truth on how you understand God and be at peace worshiping him anywhere.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by ahnggk

 

The bible is not corrupt. It's your interpretation of it that is wrong.

That is just your opinion/faith, we have evidence that the bible was changed but you choose to believe it is God's will or ignore it.