Do we still deny ignorance on ATS?

I've been on ATS for years. And even though I rarely posted during my time here, I visited ATS almost every time I could. It used to be such a terrific site during my first two years, influencing me and greatly assisting me in my search for the truth, and I owe its members a lot for that.

Now I'm not a westerner (even though I'll admit I'm largely influenced by Western civilization and you would find for example that I've hardly read a book that isn't in English for years). I'm from Egypt, and I lived here most of the 22 years of my life. We will come to why I mention that in a moment.

Anyway, in the past two years I've seen ATS fall into exactly what its members turn to it as an alternative to. The MSM. Intolerance and hatred. Negativity and flaming. A bombardment of Propaganda and lies. I realize and appreciate that so many members of this site are aware of that and are always doing their best to fight with it, but there are still many others who don't. We call the people who fall for MSM propaganda and lies sheeple, but what is someone who, while not believing MSM, will believe anything that is written on the internet and then posted by any member of the website he now accepts as the place where people are not sheeple. You know, well-informed, ignorance-denying, etc. And he does that without any research, questioning or even using simple common sense?

As someone who has lived most of his life in a country with Muslim majority, I've always been especially astonished at the incredible amount of anti-Islam lies and propaganda. Much like the Egyptian revolution, this is an area I have more real-life knowledge about than most people on ATS, so it's always quite easy to spot lies on ATS about these specific topics. Now I'm actually not religious, haven't been for years. And I'll criticize religious radicalism and general idiocy as quickly as the next guy on ATS will, and in fact do it all the time in real life with people I know. But I'm also honest and hate nothing more than to see people mistaking lies for the truth by people intentionally or not misleading them with completely made up stories.

I came to find those kind of threads incredibly dark and disturbing and full of hate and intolerance, on those some members made remarks that made me shudder from how evil and violent they were. Comments that made the "I wish the middle east would be destroyed by a meteor or nuked out of existence so that the world could live happy ever after" sort of comments that I heard earlier seem innocent. All that even though I share almost nothing with the people around me and their culture and religion, other than the mere fact that I lived all my life among them including my family and most of my friends. More than that what disturbed me is how I knew it was all lies and propaganda that people mistook for the truth.

I don't want to make this thread too long for people to read and I know that if I go on I'll make this a bit of a personal story (if I haven't already. Not even sure if General Conspiracies is the right forum for it) and would go into a related big conspiracy of mine, so I won't. Instead I will say what finally made me post a thread about it all.

It was a thread I just saw about the Muslim Brotherhood (whose candidate won the presidential elections a couple months ago) actually crucifying people naked on trees! Now I'm one of a few millions of liberals in Egypt and we completely oppose the MB and all religious political parties and consider them fascists in the guise of moralists, and would never support them. And thankfully as the results of the presidential elections showed, most of the people in Egypt don't support them either, their candidate who won later got only 5.7 million vote from 25 million who voted, and the only reason he won is cause he came up against a candidate who was basically a part of the old regime that the revolution removed from power in the 2nd round, which forced all people who believed in the revolution to either vote for the MB candidate or, like myself, abstain from voting. But despite all that, really? You think they could crucify people naked on trees and nobody would know about it or see it except on some vague sites (the one I checked being someone's personal site as the name clearly implies). Where do you think Egypt is? On another planet? Every man and his dog has a mobile phone with a video camera. And you think it'd be ok for them to do such a thing when people are waiting for the president to complete his first 100 days to see what he offers people before they start protests again, since we don't consider the revolution to be over yet? Where is common sense? How more obvious could propaganda be? The only reason I'm now defending the MB is for the sake of the truth. I'd love to see them leave power, but not by the use of lies. I actually dare say that, while still at the beginning of the road, there's more political freedom in Egypt after the revolution (at least till now!) than there is in many western countries. At least people protest all the time now without fear of violence being used by the police for the most part.

This now seems like a rant that has to do with religion, but it really doesn't. It's just one example of what I started this thread talking about. I don't care about religion, but I do care about the truth, and hate to see lies, propaganda, hatred and intolerance being so common on this website.

/end rant.

I understand what you are saying and you could help the problem. A lot of people here have not lived where you have, or experienced what you have. You could do a great service by piping up when you see the lies and propaganda you know from YOUR experience are not true.

I try not to comment on the things you talked about because I do not know enough about them. More of us could learn from you though if you cared to share your insight on some of this with ATS.

I know it isn't your job to correct ignorance. I am just saying that there are folks here who would appreciate a first hand view/opinion if you find something stated as fact that is indeed not a fact.

One of the really annoying things is when some 'truthers' just constantly brand others 'sheeple' (yeah, very f*cking original) just because they're not accepting the narrative being pushed by the 'truthers' themselves, or because they're not spending 24/7 in some basement doing the 'research'. Or perhaps it's a superiority complex of some sort.

This 'sheeple' name calling crap really should stop. It's worn thin long ago, and it's rather irritating now.

Originally posted by Kangaruex4Ewe
I understand what you are saying and you could help the problem. A lot of people here have not lived where you have, or experienced what you have. You could do a great service by piping up when you see the lies and propaganda you know from YOUR experience are not true.

I try not to comment on the things you talked about because I do not know enough about them. More of us could learn from you though if you cared to share your insight on some of this with ATS.

I know it isn't your job to correct ignorance. I am just saying that there are folks here who would appreciate a first hand view/opinion if you find something stated as fact that is indeed not a fact.

edit on 8/18/2012 by Kangaruex4Ewe because: (no reason given)

I agree with the frozen roo here.
I didn't post in any of the "Muslim Brotherhood crucifying people!!!!1111!!!!ELEVEN!!" threads for the simple reason that I didn't see that any of the facts had been verified beyond doubt... so it felt a little pointless to me...
But I have to agree, if you have an alternate viewpoint, and an insider's view on Egypt in particular, why not share it? Your contribution would be valuable, and that's what makes ATS valuable - the fact that people with such differing, conflicting views can all come together and talk about it, whether we all agree or not.

...so get in there and let the feathers fly!

Gar.

I wish people would lay off that phrase.

Every thread consists of "deny Ignorance!"

"No, YOU deny ignorance!"

"I'm denying ignorance, you sir, are not!"

"YOU are embracing ignorance, I am denying it!"

You all sound like zombies incapable of finding your own words...

You are an exceptionally articulate writer. I read that OP a couple of times over- so well spoken.

I do agree with your observations about the misinformation that plagues a lot of the political threads, and I also find the seething, irrational hatred in some of the posts extremely disturbing. Many of those people are so indoctrinated by propaganda that probably nothing will change them, but I believe that some do want to listen and are open to learning. There are a few ATSers from the ME and I'm sure they'd appreciate your help in giving people first-hand perspective on these issues.

It's the stories from personal experience that always make the deepest impression on me, and it's probably that way for many others here too.

I hope to see more of your posts.

Originally posted by seaside sky
You are an exceptionally articulate writer. I read that OP a couple of times over- so well spoken.

I do agree with your observations about the misinformation that plagues a lot of the political threads, and I also find the seething, irrational hatred in some of the posts extremely disturbing. Many of those people are so indoctrinated by propaganda that probably nothing will change them, but I believe that some do want to listen and are open to learning. There are a few ATSers from the ME and I'm sure they'd appreciate your help in giving people first-hand perspective on these issues.

It's the stories from personal experience that always make the deepest impression on me, and it's probably that way for many others here too.

I hope to see more of your posts.

Agreed. I try really hard to never lump all of anyone into all of anything. We are bombarded by the anti muslim stuff here in the US so frequently that a lot of folks just ASSume things are true that may not be anywhere near the truth. I would not mind a bit learning from those who have first hand knowledge. That's the best way to get it IMO.

There are some that would no doubt call the OP a few things, but I think the majority here (myself included) would love to hear his thoughts and opinions on these subjects he has actually experienced.

reply to post by Kangaruex4Ewe


Me too, Kangaroo ! I learn a lot from ATS discussions when there are people on who have some first-hand experience and perspectives. I like the cultural exchange.

(By the way- have to say that I really loved that kangaroo joey video you had on the funny picture thread- what a darling he is !)

reply to post by Arsenalwa


Honestly, I think that many of the outrageous claims made on this site are not intended to impart truth, or even to perpetrate outright lies. Many come here to blow things way out of proportion just for the fun of it. It's entertaining to them. How can it be anything else when some event occurs in the world, and TEN SECONDS later there's a conspiracy thread with 300 replies when the real facts aren't even out there yet?

Why would the religious come here to discuss their god (instead of a warm and welcoming religious site) when they KNOW they are going to be bashed and smashed and belittled and mentally crucified? Answer: It's their PLAN. They conspire to create discord.

reply to post by Arsenalwa

Thank you for sharing this. It's refreshing and heartening to know how you and the majority of modern Egyptians (and other persons in the Middle East) really see things.

I second (or third or fourth) the suggestion that you speak up when you see the idiotic propaganda. I want very much to know how the people in every culture and place think and feel.

Glad you're here.

reply to post by Arsenalwa


All of us are ignorant and blind in this life. Even the most intelligent of us all. We grasp very little of life the universe and all else that it may be thousands of years before anyone can claim to be above ignorance.

Here's what I'm tired of seeing:

"Check out this video of a UFO I saw"

"Chinese Lanterns"

"No, it was moving side to side, in a zig zag formation, check out my video"

(Video clearly shows a light, moving in that fashion)

"I watched your video and I'm still seeing Chinese lanterns, c'mon, let's deny ignorance here"

"I saw what I saw. There is no ignorance going on"

"This is ATS, let's deny ignorance"

I'd like for this "motto" to be done away with. It's used time after time to abuse other members with.

What is ignorant to one person, may not be to another. That, or the phrase is used as a disinfo technique.

reply to post by Arsenalwa


I'd say from what I've seen, ATS breeds ignorance.. I just started posting and am getting nothing but cold rudeness,, which is shocking because I see all the other great threads with people exchanging ideas and stuff. I'm being branded as a hoaxer for some videos I posted on youtube 3 years ago when i mistakenly thought what i was recording were UFOs... I actually believed it at the time. Nobody here seems to be able to get over that, so far it seems like a very close-minded place tho I'd like to know that there are any real people among you all, otherwise I'll just stop trying...

Originally posted by SheilAliens
reply to post by Arsenalwa

 

I'd say from what I've seen, ATS breeds ignorance.. I just started posting and am getting nothing but cold rudeness,, which is shocking because I see all the other great threads with people exchanging ideas and stuff. I'm being branded as a hoaxer for some videos I posted on youtube 3 years ago when i mistakenly thought what i was recording were UFOs... I actually believed it at the time. Nobody here seems to be able to get over that, so far it seems like a very close-minded place tho I'd like to know that there are any real people among you all, otherwise I'll just stop trying...

And that is exactly why I will never bring my UFO video or photos here. Never. It will be picked to the bones, and then I'll be branded a liar. I see this happen to a lot of people on ATS who have presented something genuine, or something they mistakenly thought was a UFO.

I truly miss the days of anomalies.net. There were a lot of level headed people posting there back then, and we didn't have all of the attacks that people have to endure on ATS.

That said, my husband and I clearly saw something the other night while watching the meteor shower. It was 4 am. We saw a light near Venus. The light zig zagged, stopped, sat still, moved side to side, sat still, rose up, dropped down. It did this for about five minutes, and just disappeared right in front of our eyes. All of this, while the shower was taking place. It was amazing. I'll never make a thread about it here though.

reply to post by SheilAliens


I didn't see your threads. It sure isn't right for anyone to be trashing you like that. What I have noticed when I do go on the UFO and paranormal threads is so often someone posts some pics or a video of something that really does seem a bit mysterious and they're just looking for some open-minded input and ideas, and they get a boatload of bashing for their efforts. The treatment is way too harsh !

Now if someone leads with a bold claim that they KNOW their picture is of a spaceship from Betelgeuse V, then I'd say they've got a bit of a rough reception coming to them. They might be right (and they are entertaining) but I suppose it's a bit cocky to lead a UFO thread like they not only know it's an alien spaceship but they've got the make and model number too. I can see that bringing out the critics.

But most everyone, like you, introduces their pictures with a sincere curiosity - they just want some opinions from people who are willing to consider a wide range of possibilities- including the ones the stuffy people at work would never consider. This is ATS ! It ought to be the right place to go.

And really, just because something could be a streetlight reflection or whatever, it also could be something else far more mysterious ! So you never really know.

I've actually wondered if I ever did see a UFO - would I even dare post it here ? It shouldn't be like that.

I'm going to go look at your pictures. You've got a friend here

This fourm is like every other fourm on the net. They have a tendency to develop cliques, and these cliques have tendencies to look down there noses at outsiders, like some how the validity of your point is directly corolated to how long you have been a member or how many posts you have.
All the while slapping each other on the back for validating each others points,which are usually the same, just in different packages.
Then there is the grammar Nazis .......... dear God the grammar Nazis.. Listen. I know US public schools failed me, no need to remind me. If its really an issue for you that I don't conjugate the verb, well, I'm sorry,allot and in advance...
And man I woud love to see the chat room, but alas, I am a lowly serf, and have not pontificated enough. I enjoy reading the posts, but comment rarely because I have nothing of value to add or someone else has made the point that I was thinking of.

Originally posted by Starchildren
reply to post by Arsenalwa

 

And that is exactly why I will never bring my UFO video or photos here. Never. It will be picked to the bones, and then I'll be branded a liar. I see this happen to a lot of people on ATS who have presented something genuine, or something they mistakenly thought was a UFO.

I truly miss the days of anomalies.net. There were a lot of level headed people posting there back then, and we didn't have all of the attacks that people have to endure on ATS.

That said, my husband and I clearly saw something the other night while watching the meteor shower. It was 4 am. We saw a light near Venus. The light zig zagged, stopped, sat still, moved side to side, sat still, rose up, dropped down. It did this for about five minutes, and just disappeared right in front of our eyes. All of this, while the shower was taking place. It was amazing. I'll never make a thread about it here though.

I understand your reluctance to divulge your experience in a thread of your own for the reasons you have given.

It is disheartening however. What I don't understand is why you care so much about what other people think about you or your information. YOU know it is true and that should be enough.

I know that for every encouraging comment you will get three that will try to ridicule you. But apart from having a larger percentage of open minded people on a forum that deals with conspiracies and supernatural phenomena, the majority of the people here still reflect the mindset of the masses. I'm reminded of that whenever I see a thread about left-wing / right-wing discussions, when you would think on a forum such as this, people should be informed enough to know that they are both wings of puppeteered circus bird.

However, there are always people who will have an open mind about whatever is presented here. And since your video even isn't just some link but something you actually experienced yourself, I believe it is your duty to post your material. Because it would be one more clip of something real that stands against the masses of fakes and hoaxes. Maybe "duty" is too strong a word, but you get my meaning I hope.

I would post my UFO experience if I had anything to show for it. But at the time I was lying in the sun and suddenly saw three white dots which started to move around, form different formations, teleport and so on. But I didn't have a camera ready, so all I could do was enjoy my five minute personal UFO show.

Anyway, the only comments that should concern you are those from people that have an open mind and will thank you for your information, not the ones from ignorant and cynical bullies you encounter here.

reply to post by Arsenalwa


"Do we still deny ignorance on ATS?"

Yes, we do.

First of all, stick around please. We need more people like you here. You come across as objective, articulate and, above all else, you can add first hand experience from one part of the world to another that desperately needs an intelligent bridge between the two.

Secondly, you seemed a little concerned about whether this rant was in the appropriate forum. Here's a suggestion. All the people you complained about tend to congregate in forums that have a lot of traffic. Just go to the forums page and you'll see what I mean. These people go there because everyone else does and they want their voices to be heard. Problem is, people like that tend add less substance to a conversation then the ones who go to the less populated forums.

You seem to have a good grasp of the English language, so I won't go into detail here. I'm sure you'll be able to figure this out on your own. If you want to start a conversation about, for example, the public crucifixions you mentioned in your OP and you want to have an intelligent conversation about it, don't put it in the obvious forum like politics or religion. They get a lot of traffic and we all know where that leads. Word your post in such a way that you can cross the whole thing over onto a road less traveled like the philosophical forum, well enough to where it's relevant to both that topic and yours. Cross it over.

Another reason why that's a good idea is when you get to the point where you know you have people from various parts of the world paying attention to what you say, you'll learn that crossing over topics like I mentioned helps get your point across better to different people of different cultures. You can put things very articulately in the English language, but because of the different cultures that people grow up in, they're going to comprehend things a bit differently from each other. What you see as religious someone else might see as philosophical. You might take the meaning of a certain word literally, while someone else will just see it in a "general" light. You have to talk to a scientist differently then you would a farmer. If you're in Egypt and you want to talk about a topic that is both sensitive to Norway and relevant to Egypt, cater to your sensitive audience. And so forth and so on...........

Maybe you'll have to work to get to that level, maybe not. Maybe you care enough to go into that kind of detail, maybe not. I don't know, but I do know that someone like you can really add value to this site. I've been coming here for going on 8 years now and I agree with you that the quality has gone down. It's ironic too because the amount of topics have grown quite a bit.

I second the above , please dont leave , we need people like you on here

starred and flagged .....

Ignorance: lack of knowledge, education, or awareness

That being said, denying ignorance is ignorance itself.
What may happen, everywhere, is ignoring ignorance. But again, knowledge, education and awareness are all very subjective terms.

Education is highly influenced by each one's social and cultural background.
Knowledge is a really wide definition. No one has full knowledge and it's also influenced by Education.
Awareness is probably the less specific definition of the three, as it is influenced by everything.

The problems start to arise, not by the lack of any of those, but by the lack of respect towards someone's point of view.

We're on a world wide place now, we call it internet, we call it world wide web. Expecting to see everyone agreeing with ONE point of view is moot. It's falling into the illusion that "I" have the absolute truth about everything.
If that would be true, then discussion forums would have no reason at all, and we'd only need a page with headlines.

Ignorance exist on all of us, and that's expressed specially by the lack of capacity to accept that others may have a very different point of view.
There's no rule that points out that we must all agree with each others theories and ideas.

Hate will always be present in some topics. That's a "must accept it as reality" point. The trick is... Ignoring it.
We can't change someone's point of view in a few words, when those point of views are have deep roots into people's education. That's how the mind works.

OP, I understand your points. I too have issues with some points of view, some really trigger the worst on me, but at the end I do understand why people have all that hate on them.
I don't agree, but I understand.

This is not about single people, individuals. This is about massive brainwashing, that we all are under, called Cultural education. We were born into it and all we are is based in some way on it.

My solution to all of this is to... well, having no solution. I simply sigh in sadness and hope for the world to understand "my" point of view. No different than the ones that create that reaction on myself.

The Human world is #ed up, yes, but the solution must come globally through, what I previously commented, awareness.

Awareness is at this moment too diversified to enable a global understanding of the humanity. Respect falls under those problems that we point out as hate, or as you did, ignorance.

The silent majority is probably more aware of the problems you spoke about, but it's the vocal minority that brings the idea that "everything is bad" to the top of the topics.

It's much easier to comment Hate than to comment Love in a world that was taught that Love is a weakness in some way.