Basic Income - The first step to end poverty?

Anyone ever wonder what would happen if your pay rate was linked to your IQ?

Aside of course from me only getting the minimum wage. LoL

reply to post by Slave NO MORE


This both infuriates me and makes me wishful at the same time. If every person in the world got an equal portion of the 1%'s wealth, we'd all have around 70 million EACH?

And here I am trying hard to find people to borrow a few dollars off so I can finally get some laundry done.

Maybe that's the break everyone NEEDS. With 70 mil dollars each, if some bloke ends up poor in a few decades, that's his problem - and that WOULD be a problem. I actually think the economy the world over would thrive if everyone was able to spend money and purchase things again.

That just MAY be the answer to the current horrific things going on in the world. If someone is greedy and needs more than 70 million, that's just pathetic and disgusting in my opinion. There should be no issues of the 1% to give up their lot in life, combine it, share it out and allow everyone to enjoy it too. It'd be a win win anyway. Those 1% who only have maybe 30 million would then have 70 mil. Those with 203982509385 million would be off their holier than thou high horse and, again, if THEY can't LIVE off 70 million for life......... yeah. You all see my point xD

Doing this would definitely ease the worlds issues. I see no negatives at all to be honest. There are folk out there who love doing what they do, be it farming, electronics, medicine, etc. They'd still offer services. I can only see good coming from this.

reply to post by sarra1833


"This both infuriates me and makes me wishful at the same time. If every person in the world got an equal portion of the 1%'s wealth, we'd all have around 70 million EACH? "

Sounds to good to be true only because it is, money would become worthless due to inflation(Milk would be £70000 a pint). Human nature would need to change globally for this to work. Its a nice idea though, does give you hope.

Originally posted by sarra1833
reply to post by Slave NO MORE

 

I have to agree. I'm NOT for this global income just because if it WAS Enough, no one would work. And nothing would get done.

"Enough" is very subjective. Enough to survive is one thing but working to buy enough of the things you want is another. In that case enough will be at the mercy of each persons individual drive. Pretty much the same as things are now.

I was more pointing out that 1 dollar a day/10 dollars a month is a worse slap in the face to a poor person than getting zero, you know? Or panhandling, etc.

Your looking at it from a 1st world perspective and in that sense you are right.

In countries were there are no social security nets, a dollar a day makes a real difference.

reply to post by Slave NO MORE


The first thing that needs to end to allow the end of all poverty is piramidal hierarchies like the one you've mentioned. The political and financial systems must have their core concepts revised in order to allow for a true democracy. Adopting a single world wide leader would solve nothing on the long run. Would only help perpetuate what we have now indefinitely.

reply to post by thomas_


Which... let's face it, isn't any good.

Essential we would need somthing like the French revolution to take place world wide at the same time!

Originally posted by toolgal462
reply to post by mrMasterJoe

 

Fair enough. Thank you for your thoughtful and civilized answer. I was a bit on the defensive because of all the "hate on America" garbage I see so much on this website.

But you didn't do that, you made a fair criticism. Thanks for that, Sir.

Wow. That's some post that really made my day =) Thank you, too for being so polite and nice. That's some rare thing here I must agree with you. People tend to be fighting each other these days while they should rather come together and find a solution for our misery as a united and caring think tank.

What I want to stress is that I see a difference between the people of each country and the small elite that controls the direction we all are heading. The majority of people in ANY country does NOT want all the bad things were are having these days. And I cannot understand why some dudes do not make any differentiation between this elite and the rest of us. I often think that it's rubbish to talk about Iran, Israel or China as some sort of disturbed folks. Only a MINORITY (which sadly has the control and the power) in these countries makes the bad descisions but most of the time they do it against the will of the (silent) majority.

One big problem however is that the "hard core" / the root of these elitists is most likely located in the US (and maybe also in Isreal - but we don't know for sure). Some call it "shadow government" some call it the "cabal". These folks have ruined the reputation of a whole country in a similar way Hitler and the Nazis ruined the reputation of Germany. These people are our real problem and I regard them as being severely disordered. Again, they have nothing to do with the average Joe in America or any other country following their rules. But I believe they love to see when we are bashing each other by thinking that whole countries and their people are the problem while it's really only them staging and directing all this havoc.
And it's not only an American problem as these elitists export their way of thinking to the rest of the world. Europe, too is falling apart because of this sick mindset! Capitalism, money, greed, power obsession and egoism are at the very center of this absurd thinking. Our society has become very disfunctional everywhere these cabalists have left their fingerprints.

I hope that very soon we understand that we all arehaving the same problems and that we need to stand together and not fight each other. This small group of elitist must be banned from this world. They need to understand that their evil behaviour will kill them too in the very end. I hope that very soon we find a way to unite and restart our society to find a new way of living togehter in peace and harmony. It's about time.

One idea I've always liked for increasing the income of the people doesn't involve taxes, earning limits, or redistributing the wealth. The people who have the power to make change have to have the incentive to do it. If they are getting fat pay checks regardless of how well they represent the people what incentive do they have to help the people?

I'd like to see politicians get the same average wage of the people of the state they represent. What better way for the representative to feel the problems of the people than to experience them for themselves? Also, the people should have the power to veto laws that they don't like instead of having to passively accept whatever comes down the pipeline and hope the representatives they voted for actually do something about it.

Because I have not done this so far... I would like to make some suggestions regarding this very topic of this thread. Well, here we go.

Many people can't stand the thought of giving something for "nothing". So they reject the idea of a basic income for everyone because they tend to think that they then have to work for people who do not want to do anything at all and still get the money. Although I believe this way of thinking is not altruistic but purely egoistic I want to give you some suggestions.

The following list of ideas could help to fix our society (open for debate):

- Companies shall not have any corporate body. This world is about real people and not virtual ones! Corporate body are only applied to abuse the system.
- Companies shall not make any "profit". Because this profit does NOT benefit us all but only a few people. The "profit" (money left after paying all operational costs) of a company shall be returned to the society as a whole. Always without any exception. Streets, schools and hospitals shall be build from it or new companies shall be founded with this money.
- Companies shall NOT be owned by individual persons or individual groups of persons. Companies shall belong to us all. They are there to create stuff that helps the society as a whole. So we all shall own them.
- There shall be NO debt at all. When something needs to be done and there is no money for it - it will not be possible. I am very convinced that when all the "profit" of companies is used to pay our common needs there will virtually NEVER be a situation where more money is needed than exists!
- All wages shall be paid using a unified / equalized payment system which also takes into account the usefulness (for the society) of the work being done! So worker A who does job C somewhere will always get the same amount of money than worker B who also does job C somewhere else in the world. Also the prices for goods need to be the same everywhere (the price of course depends on the abundance of the affected good). With this system a constant growth or rising of prices is NOT necessary at all.
- No patents are needed anymore as there are no owners of companies who need to be protected. All inventions of the whole world can now be exchanged freely and a successful invention will always build the foundation for new inventions. The pace at which we are able to develop new things would increase dramatically!
- Machines shall be build and replace workers everywhere where this is possible and reasonable. The more the better!
- Everyone is being paid a basic "life" income that is enough to have a single + simple appartment, normal food, enough energy for daily use, water etc. This basic income shall be enough to "survive" on an acceptable and reasonable healthy level but not enough for any luxury like always getting the newest TV or a big car etc. No one HAS to work at all for receiving this very basic life support and if one thinks it's enough - he / she will not be forced to work ever.
- MOST people will not be satisfied with this very basic income as they always long for more than just basic living stuff. So they WILL work - guaranteed - to get some extra bonus for what they do!! When they work they will receive a reasonable bonus income on top of the basic income which is payed in accordance to the success of their work. If something does not sell or work well the work will also not be rewarded as much as when the product is selling / working very well. However all wages must be limited to reasonable levels which all people need to agree on (maximum income possible for any given job no matter how successful it might be).
- Medical care shall ALWAYS be free for everyone at the highest possible level!

This is a "patch" solution in order to try fixing our current system. There is potential for an even more radical system which is growing in my mind. Maybe I will start a new thread some time soon to present you my ideas in detail.

The important part here is this: we know that the current system is flawed and disfunctional. Let's look at the main reasons why it fails and try to fix them. This is what any good system engineer would do when he / she finds "bugs" in a system. Let's do it!

reply to post by Slave NO MORE


Won't work. You give people a way to survive without contributing, they will not contribute. It would be cruel in fact.

We saw what this kind of system did to the former Soviets. Why would it be any different anywhere else?

These grandious notions are wonderful until you add the human factor. That is where they fail and fail miserably.

Look at the US. When we embraced Capitalism fully we prospered greatly and lead the world. Now we are on the path to a socialist society, we are slowly declining. History does not lie, it simply repeats itself.

This never-ending cycle will continue though. Progressives chose to ignore history as they think it did not work because they were not in charge. They are wrong, but their own Narcissism will never let them see that.

We ever do get one of these worldwide perfect societies, we will have world class evil in charge. We will be like livestock and treated as livestock. That history repeats is as much a fact of life as dying is.

reply to post by Blaine91555

Won't work. You give people a way to survive without contributing, they will not contribute. It would be cruel in fact.

Well not giving them a way to survive will make them impossible to contribute. The 5.6 million children who die from hunger every year can't contribute since they don't get the chance to eat, have a house and follow education.

We saw what this kind of system did to the former Soviets. Why would it be any different anywhere else?

This wasn't done global so all the rich fled the country. Do it global and they can only flee to outer space

Originally posted by Slave NO MORE

Originally posted by Maslo
I disagree with the maximum income very much. Big private capital is important for the advancement of humanity. Billionaires often invest into things that noone else will. This is one of the reasons why communist countries were a failure.

Ordinary high income tax for the wealthy is much better solution than any ad-hoc artificial cut-off.

I also believe that a company needs to be semi owned by the government.
So that means that every person can start a business but the government is 50% owner of it.
If there is a complaint by the public / other companies then the government can step in to force changes / improvements as demanded by other peoples / companies.

Besides if the government is in control of the cash, then we don't need the big corps to invest in innovation.
People could demand the government to invest / research some areas which has interest to us all.
Like for example the farma industry it's unbelievable that they have a monopoly position. besides if it was owned by the gov. it would mean that the distribution of meds can be free for everyone.

Rule of Acquisition #666: Never go into business with the government. Instead, consider selling your soul to the devil; it is much safer and the demands aren't as high.

reply to post by mrMasterJoe


I'm very happy to discuss these things with you. I agree with much of what you are saying. I have to remind myself almost every day that most people are good. It is the minority that are evil. But it is amazing how a minority can inflict such misery on the majority! It's mind boggling. And I also agree, that it is the intent of these evil people who are pulling the strings (you called them the elite), it is their intent to keep the rest of us engaged in battles with each other so that they can continue to get away with all that they do. They know if we all stopped fighting with each other long enough to figure out what is really going on that they would be in big trouble!

And you are also right that we should all work together to put an end to this. Things do seem to be getting to a breaking point. More and more people are waking up to who the real enemy is. I don't know how far they intend to push thinga but if you ask me they are really pushing their luck at this point. If they were as smart as they think they are they would try and reign in their greed before it is too late. Just like you said, things will not end well for them if they continue down this path.

Originally posted by Slave NO MORE

Originally posted by subfab
reply to post by Slave NO MORE

 

for the individual:
i would like to see more finance education. how to balance a checkbook and a home budget. to learn not to go into debt. to learn how to save money. to have the option to be paid in gold backed currency.

for the politician:
no more carreer politicians. term limits for all elected position. their pay should reflect the people they represent. no representative should be eating steak when the people they represent can only afford top ramen noodles. if the average wage of the people they represent is $40k then that is what they get paid.

just some ideas off the top of my head.

subfab

edit on 15-8-2012 by subfab because: correct a typo

To prevent people getting into debt is also simple.
Create 2 valuta's.
1. is the primary money for paying rent and food. (Not usable to buy a PC or other luxury and also not able to trade it)
2. Luxury money to get recreation, luxury etc.

You can scrap credits this way since everyone has the basics for life and if you don't have the money to build a pool in ur garden than too bad for u, get a better job or start a new business. Go study to be able to get a better job.

I actually like this idea very much

ive been brain washed into thanking i should work for every thang i have. my parents made me work to buy my first car.
you give someone a fish he eats for a day. teach him how to fish he has food for life.
im really tired of fishing while people stand on the bank & watch.
i hear there is no work... they mean at 20.00 per hr
if they had no other choice they would work for food..evan the one holding the sign, will work for food make more money on hand outs..
i can make 200/300$ at the fair panhandleing
thanks to my parents & there parents i have been brain washed to go to work mon -fri no matter what so others can stay home and eat for free...

Originally posted by Blaine91555
reply to post by Slave NO MORE

 

Won't work. You give people a way to survive without contributing, they will not contribute. It would be cruel in fact.

We saw what this kind of system did to the former Soviets. Why would it be any different anywhere else?

These grandious notions are wonderful until you add the human factor. That is where they fail and fail miserably.

Look at the US. When we embraced Capitalism fully we prospered greatly and lead the world. Now we are on the path to a socialist society, we are slowly declining. History does not lie, it simply repeats itself...

I wanted to address this part. You are right we did progress but I don't believe it was because of capitalism so much as is was for industrial innovation/machinery, ripe and mostly unused resources (new land after all), the discovery of the power of new fossil fuels (oil) and environmental stability. Have you ever played the game Age of Empires? At the start of the game you have untouched trees for wood, gold mines for wealth, stone for building etc.. As you create your population, in the early parts of the game you can keep each of them occupied doing something. Growth in technology advances your machinery and innovation which also provides work.

But what happens when you start to run out of resources in your territory? You start building war machinery, and plan on invading the territory others for the sole purpose of expanding your territory and to continue your growth which is possible only through the acquisition of resources. The game is a wonderful reflection of the point I am trying to make.

People talk about the golden ages because they believe its about ideology. They see it as a conservative/progressive battle. But what it comes down to is whether or not resources are available for growth (which cannot go on if there is a finite supply) and whether cheap easily extracted fuel is available. On both parts we are a severe downward slope, which is why you are seeing all the problems and limits of growth in our capitalistic society. It becomes more about acquisition of wealth, on an individual basis as well as a collective one, and the ability to use war and coercion to gain resources yet untapped or already owned by other sovereign nations.

Add to that the con game that is fiat money based on confidence, and shady banking practices like fractional reserve banking and you have a recipe for disaster.

This is the reality of the game. Capitalism is a relic of the past which needs by its very nature a large supply of untapped resources, land and consumption (which automatically causes waste) in order to operate. We no longer have that luxury and the state of the world and decline is proof of that.

reply to post by toolgal462


Well said and I am happy, too that you like to discuss these things which have a lot to do with the thread's topic as it shows the fundamental scenario in which we are all caught right now!
A discussion like this one shows that we are indeed thinking the same way and I also fully agree on the awakening process that is happening everywhere. Something is cooking and we are indeed getting closer and closer to the final breaking point as you have called it. TPTB are in a great hurry to implement even more control mechanisms to keep us locked in this horrific game. One might think that some of them are already panicing due to the fact that the masses are beginning to recognize what is being played.
And yet they still put smoke and mirrors in our way hoping that this will get their asses covered like it always has in the past. A war with Iran is their next staged event and as Israel is also very keen on pushing this button I believe some of the string pullers are in fact to be found there.

It is bizarre what is necessary to evolve. But I think that what is happening right now is required for us to grow up. We as a society have to figure out that it's wrong to let someone else decide what's good or bad for us. We all should decide that together. The era of greed and power obsession is coming to an end. But it will not be an easy task. Still too many of us are deeply sleeping. Look at the presidential race that is going on in the US. It's a complete joke. Even here in Germany our media is ONLY reporting about Romney and they almost never metion Ron Paul. And they have been doing that since the beginning. Our media is exactly the same as yours. They try to sell us lies on a daily basis and they repeat it over and over again until a lot of people finally believe all these lies and distractions.The media plays a big role in this ugly game. And it's the reason why I now pick my info myself from the web and from many sources to verify what happening and what's a lie. I know that this is not always working 100% but it's much better than consuming the bull# that's on TV. Haven't been watching TV for more than a year now. I'm fed up with it.

This system will fall apart and we will enter a new era. Maybe this is what all the 2012 babbling is really about? The question is: will it be a violent end of this age or will it happen peacefully? The puppet masters are unconvincible to ever step back it seems and this will be a though ride until we're through. The final cards are now being played and when I read about drones flying in our airspace (here in Germany now too!), Facebook installing "ad cams" and doing facial recogition - then I ask myself: who is to be punched in the face for all that? Shall we punch ourselves because we let it come this far? Maybe. Shall be punch the politicians because they loved to be the puppets of this ugly show. Maybe. But the thoughest part of all will be to forgive them all their stupidity as this is some sort of important lesson of our adolescence.

We will have to find a new system for our society that takes into account all aspects of life and has the main goal of making us happy and not struggling with life. And it's up to us to discuss and find this system ourselves or there might be yet another "savior" stepping out of the dark to bring us our new future. Maybe this time this savior is not even human. Who knows.

Interesting times and we are part of that =)

reply to post by Slave NO MORE


From what I can tell most people work simply to know they have it better than others.

Not feeling useful or for the passion of the field they work in no, SIMPLY to know they are better then someone else.