Revelations 13:10 - Christian "persecution" in the end times.

Christians believe a time is coming when they would be captured, rounded up and executed.
And Revelations 13:10 is the strongest of the many verses that this belief rests on.


If anyone is to be taken captive, to captivity he goes; if anyone is to be slain with the sword, with the sword must he be slain. Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints.
-Revelations 13:10


This verse simply speaks of a time of great political and social turmoil... meaning literally "anyone" could go into captivity and "anyone" could be executed. This does not indicate that only christians would be singled out for captivity or execution, as is often said.. but simply means that everybody would be at risk.
The second half of that verse is a call for those who are saints to endure this persecution.

Yet, this verse is interpreted by Christians to mean only THEY would be taken into captivity and executed for their beliefs... by an enemy who simply hates christians and what they believe. This scenario makes little sense.

Points up for discussion
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. How exactly would the force who "takes into captivity" mess with Christians living in a powerful country, like say America? Assuming the anti-christ is non-American, is he going to send forces over to the US to systematically attack only the christians?

2. Wont the governments of countries with a large christian population resist anybody who tries to harm their citizens on their soil? Or do christians imagine that their government would be working WITH this anti-christian enemy?

3. Is this enemy going to spare the Muslims, hindus, sikhs, buddhists, etc.? What about the mormons, JWs etc.?

Discuss.

technically if your going to create a one world government wouldn't singling out a single "bad" religion work best for persecution? people need something to hate, right now Americans are at war someplace they dont need to be for oil and drugs and whatever the heck else the us gov wants there. and we are still getting support to be there because of those "mean ole muslims" doing "terroristy" things. that is how Hitler did it and he chose the Jews (we already know this) because they controlled the banks and financial institutions, and people were broke. now, if i was a big bad government who wants to control the entire globe i would need to choose a religion to attach and target as the "source" of bad stuff so i could get the people behind me, who better then the Christians, we are mostly against abortion, and stem cell research and some of us (gasp) are even against GMO due to the scientists "playing God". since these technologies are supposed to be our future source of scientific breakthrough to improve lives the world over and Christians are primarily against it wouldn't you just naturally target them as enemies of science? or as enemies of progress? give it time and show how GMO abortion stem research etc. are our ONLY way forward and those silly Christians are preventing it (or at least trying to) and the people will naturally begin to prosecute on there own, much less with government help. then TPTB will have all the support for this sort of thing that they need.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Dear sk0rpi0n,

I agree with you, it does not say that only Christians get persecuted. It wasn't just Jews that were persecuted under Hitler either. I don't think it says that persecution or wars would ever stop and they haven't. I would assume that all who refuse to worship the beast or take a mark would be persecuted. I think a lot of atheists will refuse to take the mark. There are atheists on this site that would refuse to take an RFID chip and you can read the threads and know that. Whatever the one world religion is, it would have to have aspects of Christian and Muslim belief with a bit of the New Age thrown in.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


That could be taken in many ways really..

1. You've forgotten the pre-text to this quote and we absolutely CANNOT come to any assumpttion because we don't know the pre-text in order to know who "Anyone" was.

2. It literally meant "Anyone" which would lead me to believe that the saints/Christians are ALWAYS being tested.

3, Only Christians were being persecuted. Which again could mean the saints are ALWAYS being tested. Considering, somewhere, all the time, as long as christians existed, they were being persecuted.

I think it reminds me of another quote. "These are the times that try men's souls"

I sincerely hope that helps.

reply to post by theinsolentfish

who better then the Christians, we are mostly against abortion, and stem cell research and some of us (gasp) are even against GMO due to the scientists "playing God". since these technologies are supposed to be our future source of scientific breakthrough to improve lives the world over and Christians are primarily against it wouldn't you just naturally target them as enemies of science? or as enemies of progress?

So you are saying you would be targeted for persecution simply because you have an opinion... be it regarding abortion / stem cell research or whatever. And just how do you imagine your persecutors would identify people who oppose these things? An opinion poll??

Either way, christians seem powerless to stop practices that you oppose, so your government already has you in their grip....and don't consider you as an "enemy of progress".

reply to post by AQuestion

I agree with you, it does not say that only Christians get persecuted. It wasn't just Jews that were persecuted under Hitler either. I don't think it says that persecution or wars would ever stop and they haven't. I would assume that all who refuse to worship the beast or take a mark would be persecuted. I think a lot of atheists will refuse to take the mark. There are atheists on this site that would refuse to take an RFID chip and you can read the threads and know that.

Exactly, that verse speaks of a time when everybody would be under persecution, not just christians.
The whole "mark of the beast" issue complicates this even more. It just wont be Christians who would refuse it, but basically anybody who senses that their freedom is at risk, regardless of religous belief.

Whatever the one world religion is, it would have to have aspects of Christian and Muslim belief with a bit of the New Age thrown in.

I dont agree with the concept of a forced one world religion.
Just why would muslims or buddhists or anybody else suddenly discard what they believe and adopt a new religion being pushed by a government.

reply to post by foodstamp

1. You've forgotten the pre-text to this quote and we absolutely CANNOT come to any assumpttion because we don't know the pre-text in order to know who "Anyone" was.

2. It literally meant "Anyone" which would lead me to believe that the saints/Christians are ALWAYS being tested.

3, Only Christians were being persecuted. Which again could mean the saints are ALWAYS being tested. Considering, somewhere, all the time, as long as christians existed, they were being persecuted.

"anyone" could means "anyone" living during that time. Not particularly the christians.
The "saints" are also be subjected to persecution, but they are instructed to endure it.

The key to this is to identify the "holy people" who the beast wages war against and conquers. (Rev 13:7)

Considering, somewhere, all the time, as long as christians existed, they were being persecuted.

This is debatable.
If only christians are to be persecuted, how do you imagine the anti-christ, if he is non-American, would manage to single out only the christians in your country? It would be a bit of a logistical problem for him, wouldn't it?

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Dear sk0pi0n,

I dont agree with the concept of a forced one world religion. Just why would muslims or buddhists or anybody else suddenly discard what they believe and adopt a new religion being pushed by a government.

It may or may not be "forced", there will definitely be a reason to claim that you believe it. Many Germans lifted their hands and said, Heil Hitler" without actually meaning it; but, they knew what it meant.That is why I said that it would be some sort of combination of all of them.

The Word of God warns Christians, the gospel is written to encourage Christians.
Of course its not be suggesting only Christians will be persecuted, look at most communist atheist countrys, all religions were persecuted.
Its a Christian letter written to Christians specifically

reply to post by AQuestion

It may or may not be "forced", there will definitely be a reason to claim that you believe it. Many Germans lifted their hands and said, Heil Hitler" without actually meaning it; but, they knew what it meant.That is why I said that it would be some sort of combination of all of them.

Thats a good point.

It could be something like how "worshipping" the beasts image would not be a literal form of worship... but rather a sort of a pledge of allegiance.

I don't think anyone would discard their beliefs and adopt another belief system.... even if it did resemble what they originally believed. I had made a thread about the very same thing earlier, if you are interested...

Regarding "one world religion"

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by theinsolentfish

 

So you are saying you would be targeted for persecution simply because you have an opinion... be it regarding abortion / stem cell research or whatever. And just how do you imagine your persecutors would identify people who oppose these things? An opinion poll??

Either way, christians seem powerless to stop practices that you oppose, so your government already has you in their grip....and don't consider you as an "enemy of progress".

Obviously you have something against christians. I also detect an arrogance about you. Perhaps and atheist? Or agnostic in the sense that you hate christianity for everything thats wrong with it but still believe in a god? Irregardless, some people don't believe in those things like stem cell and abortion because THEY'RE WRONG!

Take a look at this for starters, then make a childish comment which I already know you will.

The rest of you. I hope you find answers within these pics and the article..

www.infowars.com/shock-discovery-248-human-embryos-found-trashed-in-russian-forest-graphic-photos/

Ohh, and on the note of a one world religion... It will be buddhism... You'll just call it something else...

The funniest thing about it is that it's philosophy has progressivly taken over christianity, new age, wicca, atheism, Islam you name it...Because, well, it's the truth....

Originally posted by foodstamp
Ohh, and on the note of a one world religion... It will be buddhism... You'll just call it something else...

The funniest thing about it is that it's philosophy has progressivly taken over christianity, new age, wicca, atheism, Islam you name it...Because, well, it's the truth....

edit on 8/11/1212 by foodstamp because: typo

Naturally, the Religion of No-Religion would be the thing we eventually all realize: a mix of Zen and Tao.

reply to post by AdamsMurmur


Couldn't have said it better..

Truth is..There's a God. But he aint a "He" and "He dont't have a beard or any intrest in us"
And When "Your" "Dead" the your "dead". The only thing the christians and atheist can't understand is..... "You" never existed in the first place... Everything is "dependant Arising" It's a scientific fact as well as a philisophical certainty so Google it....

reply to post by foodstamp

Obviously you have something against christians. I also detect an arrogance about you. Perhaps and atheist? Or agnostic in the sense that you hate christianity for everything thats wrong with it but still believe in a god?

You're just being oversensitive.... in thinking I have something against christians simply because I debate their P.O.Vs.
Secondly, YOU come across as arrogant when you say you "know" I will make a childish comment.

Irregardless, some people don't believe in those things like stem cell and abortion because THEY'RE WRONG!

Even I dont think abortion is a good thing. I'm also against a bunch of other things that Christians speak against.
So what now? Are we now on the same side? or am I the enemy because my belief system is a little different from yours.

Thread over.... Next...... Heh

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Nope, we're on the same side..

But you can only get honesty outta someone if you "Shake'em down"

Plus, I had to get that infowars article in somehow.... Heh

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n

Points up for discussion
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. How exactly would the force who "takes into captivity" mess with Christians living in a powerful country, like say America? Assuming the anti-christ is non-American, is he going to send forces over to the US to systematically attack only the christians?

2. Wont the governments of countries with a large christian population resist anybody who tries to harm their citizens on their soil? Or do christians imagine that their government would be working WITH this anti-christian enemy?

3. Is this enemy going to spare the Muslims, hindus, sikhs, buddhists, etc.? What about the mormons, JWs etc.?

Reply to the first question -

We (American's) are already in captivity, we are controlled and ruled by the corporation's and corrupted government. You have to look at the bigger picture.

There are so many rules and laws in place now that it’s impossible to live life free of these two… the system has been designed so that you have to work to put food on the table and if you can’t work you have to depend on the government handouts to survive.

That to me is “Captivity”… your thoughts?

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Revelation 13:5-7: “And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.”

Daniel 7:25- “And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.”

reply to post by theinsolentfish

Kind of a long ramble there, theinsolentfish, but I have to agree. In recent years with the constant religious right lobby and stanch anti-everything that could help humankind, not to mention the constant bickering on religious dogma, and preaching of hate aimed at certain groups of people, it would be no great wonder to see Fundamentalist Extremist Christianity outlawed. Of course, if a New World Order is to come, then the Fundamentalist Extremist Muslims need to be dealt with also. We can't have Clerics beheading people, and Priests burning people alive in a New World, after all.

Today's Christians are not being persecuted any more than they themselves have persecuted people all over the world for years.
And still are, in some places. Everything has to come full circle, and yes, they will come full circle too.

Personally, I cannot see any One World Government being in charge of the whole world anytime soon. The model is the United Nations, and it is a dismal failure, as a world leader. Humanity is too wildly different in culture, belief, and technology just go along with a Central Government. I know the faithful would really love it if their Godman came back and ruled over the world, that would make some extremely happy. But then that is not happening either.