I don't care about the rules on this one, I'm too upset, furious, stunned, whatever.

reply to post by LadyGreenEyes


AT this point we'll have to agree to disagree, your beliefs are your own as is mine. While I am not without moral compass, I guess I have developed a less blind understanding of what religion really represents in this day and age. And splitting hairs against one form of perceived murder and another form of actual murder are not going to make this argument go away.

I appreciate your position and respect that you have the right to voice it. Yet knowing what I know of the world and being as well traveled a I am I cannot take any agreement there. We are not a civilized species in any respect. And pretending to be as such just makes the banner you carry a heavier premise against the reality of it all.

Besides, I do not think God has as much vested in humanity as you would like to believe he does....if he did....we would not be having this discussion would we?


Peace be with you and have a pleasant journey...just do not let pride overshoot principal in your endeavors to prove that someone may be wrong against the grain of your understanding of god and what he wants ......after all....we both may be right to an extent in the end.

Although we both may have gotten it very wrong as well...in the end it is not for us to know for sure.

Before Roe v. Wade, abortion was done in back alley 'doctor' offices, where oftentimes the woman dies as well during the procedure. I am completely Pro-Choice, and completely agree that a fetus is not a person. A PERSON can survive outside the mother's womb, while a 7 week old fetus cannot. Sure it has a heartbeat, but it is still basically a mismash of cells that are dividing and multiplying to eventally become a complete human being.

Religion has no business in the medical issues of a woman, no matter what the issue may be. Religion needs to know its place, and it's place is NOT dictating who, what, when, where, why regarding someone's right to choose how their body is used. I find it quite amusing how many religious zealots are so pro-life before the child is born, but after the child is born they don't care what happens to it. A prime example is the majority Republican view. They are against abortion, and also againt any social welfare. Irony is, one cancels out the other. One cannot be for the life of a fetus, but against the life of a born child who needs help, whether it be monetary or not.

If I remember my history correctly, this nation was founded on the idea that CHURCH and STATE should be separate. So making abortions illegal because it is not what "God" would do is blatant defiance against that foundation. I am so very tired of all the religions trying to claim that their way is the only "right" way. My view is that America was founded so we could all be free from opression and persecution, especially religiously, yet that is what is continually forced on us all day in and day out. People hating one another based on their religious views, people berating each other because one has a different opinion on how someone should and should not be able to live their life. eople fighting over who should and should not get pregnant, use contraception, get pregnant, have an abortion. How exacrtly is the personla decision made by a complete stranger going to affect YOUR life? SHouldn't we all the choice to decide our future, instead of having somoen else decide it for us? Shouldn/t we all be FREE to do what we wish with our lives? And until a fetus is able to sustain itself outside of the female's womb, it is not a person.

I think abortion should have a 3 strikes and your out law....3 abortions allowed per woman and then sterilization should be manditory...abortion is abused when women use it as a form of birth control.

reply to post by charles1952


I hope someone aborts him and all those with hate and contempt in their hearts for what they don't understand!

reply to post by Menrva


Do you consider murder, genicide and extermination religious aspects of human nature as well!
To think of a fetus as a non-human is just a way for those pro-choicers to shed their guilt!
Murder is murder no matter when it is commited in the womb or out makes no difference!
At least IMHO it don't!

reply to post by nosacrificenofreedom

Dear nosacrificenofreedom,

I can't go quite as far as wanting him dead. I'm just amazed at the level of evil in his heart. I hope he gets a chance to turn his life around, quick.

Yeah, abortion is wrong, no question, but this guy amplifies the wrong with pride and hate and greed. I was just stunned by him. This is one example of modern evil.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by Menrva

A PERSON can survive outside the mother's womb, while a 7 week old fetus cannot.

Do I understand you to be saying that if it can survive outside the mother's womb, it is a person? When is that now, 20 weeks, 22?

Ok, that's a good start. No abortions after five months, that's good enough for me, consider yourself pro-life, kinda.

Dear Charles,

You don't care about the rules? What are you hinting at?

It's absolutely shameless how you have exploited a few seconds of video to call out this individual doctor, who is performing legal abortions to hundreds of women, who go out of their way to seek him out for his legal services. After being harassed for "god" knows how long, they got a scathing statement out him, Oh no! The doctor is human, with faults of his own and a breaking point!

These Jesus freaks are hate filled terrorists in their own right! And this thread is promoting and adding to that hate and terrorism. What this video is showing is the doctor's terror and fear for his own life and his family's safety. We all know what these people are capable of. If this Doctor is murdered, his blood is partially on your hands. Thanks for adding to the hyper fear and hate of women who demand protection of their legal right to end an unwanted pregnancy.

George Richard Tiller, MD (August 8, 1941 – May 31, 2009)[3] was an American physician from Wichita, Kansas. He was the medical director of a clinic in Wichita, Women's Health Care Services, one of only three nationwide which provided abortions after the 21st week of pregnancy (known as late-term abortion).[4]
Pro-life group Operation Rescue kept a daily vigil outside Tiller's clinic for many years: first the national group, then later a branch that moved from California to Kansas specifically to focus on Tiller. On August 19, 1993, outside of the Wichita clinic, Tiller was shot in both arms by Shelley Shannon, who received an 11-year prison sentence for the crime of attempted murder.[5][6][7] On May 31, 2009, Tiller was shot through the eye and killed, by anti-abortion activist Scott Roeder, as Tiller served as an usher during the Sunday morning service at his church in Wichita.[8][9][10] Roeder was convicted of murder on January 29, 2010.

Near the 3 year anniversary of his death, you post this nonsense thread!

Here's another example of ruthless, pro-life terrorist attacking an abortion doctor's landlord's daughter's middle school!

Dvorak explains how Todd Stave, a landlord for an abortion doctor's office responded to a pro-life protesters showing up at his daughter's middle school with grotesque signage, then "harassing calls from protesters started coming to his home. By the dozens, at all hours." the landlord was no pushover, however, since his family had experienced violence from anti-abortion groups, going back to his childhood, including a bombing. Here's how he handled it:

www.thedemocraticstrategist.org...

That's probably what these people in your video were doing, "coming to his home by the dozens, and all hours." and then you're outraged at a mere 30 something seconds of rage they caught on tape! Shameless!

And another,

A Planned Parenthood clinic in Appleton, Wisconsin was set aflame briefly by a homemade bomb around 7:40 p.m. Sunday.

And another!

Rudolph spent many years on the FBI's notorious Most Wanted list, in part for the Centennial Olympic Park bombing but also for bombings he carried out at abortion clinics and a gay bar in the years after Olympic Park.

Abortion is NOT forbidden in the bible. Here's a biblical example of how the temple priests performed abortions.

Numbers 5
18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse —“may the Lord cause you to become a curse among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell.

Charles, if you have a problem with abortion, let's talk about that. Let's not single out an abortion doctor, who is lawfully practicing.

reply to post by windword


Dear windword,

I can't tell you how sad I am that what I wrote created the impression it did. May I try to explain?

You don't care about the rules? What are you hinting at?

I was referring, in the OP, to the rules of posting threads, which require some opinions at length, discourage minimal posts, etc. I was so overwhelmed that I couldn't think straight.

Charles, if you have a problem with abortion, let's talk about that. Let's not single out an abortion doctor, who is lawfully practicing.

Yes, I disagree with abortion, but I wouldn't start a thread on it. People have their own opinions, and unless some new evidence comes up, I don't see what talking about it would accomplish. This thread was not intended to be primarily about abortion. I saw that as secondary.

I thought I had explained, in my posts, what my intent was, but clearly I didn't do it well. Let me try again.

I assumed that for whatever reason, harassment, fear, guilt, whatever, that what came out of his mouth had first come out of his heart. He wasn't putting on an act, or making up a lie, he let his heart express what was in him. It was what was in him that I was reacting to. I wasn't worked up as much about the death of the babies, I know what happens in the world, as I was about the pure evil in his heart.

"Evil?" Yes, we all saw it. Not that he killed, although that is evil in itself, but his blinding pride, his assumption that he was God and had the authority to judge and enforce that judgment with death.

How else could he say, paraphrasing, that killing this one is good because he will grow up to be another Colorado mass murderer? Or, it's a good move to kill this one because it is an ugly black. Or, it makes sense to kill this one because taxpayers will have to help it at some time in the future. Again, I'm not pointing out and emphazising the killing, but the condition of his heart. Pride, hatred, disdain, aloofness.

And this thread is promoting and adding to that hate and terrorism.

Perhaps promoting hatred for evil. And suggesting that we should be very careful if we see similar evil in our hearts. I'm praying for him to turn around and cleanse his heart. But promoting terrorism, no. In no way. I reject that entirely. I reject it as completely as I reject this:

If this Doctor is murdered, his blood is partially on your hands.

This is one of the extraordinarily few unreasonable things I have ever seen you write

Thanks for adding to the hyper fear and hate of women who demand protection of their legal right to end an unwanted pregnancy.

All right, this is one more unreasonable thing. I have said nothing critical of the women getting abortions, they should not be hated or feared by anyone. They should be loved and sympathized with. They are going through a terribly traumatic experience. I believe they have made the wrong choice, but we all make wrong choices.

But the doctor is involved in more than wrong choices, he said things which come from a wrong heart.

then you're outraged at a mere 30 something seconds of rage they caught on tape!

Yes I admit I was. Weren't you at first? Actually, I think outrage is the proper response.

Shameless!

Over this? I don't feel a particular reason for shame. As for the ugliness and sin in my heart, I do feel shame. And I'm joyous that I can be healed of it.

Dear windword, just as the doctor did, I spoke from my heart. I was swept away. That's why I was unable to follow posting rules. Please forgive any offense I caused you, it was not intended.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952

"Evil?" Yes, we all saw it. Not that he killed, although that is evil in itself, but his blinding pride, his assumption that he was God and had the authority to judge and enforce that judgment with death.

How else could he say, paraphrasing, that killing this one is good because he will grow up to be another Colorado mass murderer? Or, it's a good move to kill this one because it is an ugly black. Or, it makes sense to kill this one because taxpayers will have to help it at some time in the future. Again, I'm not pointing out and emphazising the killing, but the condition of his heart. Pride, hatred, disdain, aloofness.

I have seen more evil in the heart of my Worker's Comp doctor and their lawyers than I saw in this man. I have met abortion clinic nurses that have an ugly disdain for their patients. I did not see or hear evil in this man. What I saw was a man, at his wits end, shrill in voice, defending himself from a brood of anti-abortion evangelical terrorists. I saw him trying to compose an argument that backfired on him.

"And this thread is promoting and adding to that hate and terrorism."

Perhaps promoting hatred for evil. And suggesting that we should be very careful if we see similar evil in our hearts. I'm praying for him to turn around and cleanse his heart. But promoting terrorism, no. In no way. I reject that entirely. I reject it as completely as I reject this:

"If this Doctor is murdered, his blood is partially on your hands."

There was no other reason for the original YouTube posters to post this but to inspire hate for this particular doctor. None! That hate may lead to violence to this man and his family and employees. There is no other reason!

In my post I attempted to show you how volatile and unreasonable these kinds of people can be. They murder doctors, bomb clinics and terrorize employees and women who would seek out an abortion, which is legal. And, they are probably reading this thread and are tickled pink at your promotion of their agenda!

This is one of the extraordinarily few unreasonable things I have ever seen you write

"Thanks for adding to the hyper fear and hate of women who demand protection of their legal right to end an unwanted pregnancy."

All right, this is one more unreasonable thing. I have said nothing critical of the women getting abortions, they should not be hated or feared by anyone. They should be loved and sympathized with. They are going through a terribly traumatic experience. I believe they have made the wrong choice, but we all make wrong choices.

These people are trying, and succeeding, in creating an environment of harassment and intimidation. It is their agenda, if they can't change the law, to scare abortion clinic workers out of their jobs and women out of their lawful decision. If you think that's not true, you need to open your eyes wider!

But the doctor is involved in more than wrong choices, he said things which come from a wrong heart.

This doctor has not made a wrong choice, he's made a dangerous and courageous choice! I don't care if he said, and believes, that every abortion he performs saves the world from another Hitler, it doesn't matter what his thoughts are. What he's doing is legal! There is plenty of ugliness and evil in heart of many of our beloved leaders too, don't ya know!

"then you're outraged at a mere 30 something seconds of rage they caught on tape!"

Yes I admit I was. Weren't you at first? Actually, I think outrage is the proper response.

"Shameless!"

Over this? I don't feel a particular reason for shame. As for the ugliness and sin in my heart, I do feel shame. And I'm joyous that I can be healed of it.

I was outraged by the shameless attempt at controlling women's reproductive rights by harassing and terrorizing a doctor, at his home, to the point where his shrill, frustrated, shaking voice blurted out a damning statement that could ultimately result in his death, and/or harm to him, his family and his employees. And then the further shame comes from sensationalizing his breakdown in order to sway public opinion against the legal procedure of abortion in the media! Dr Tiller was murdered for less! Clinics have been bombed for less!

Abortion laws are not the result of what some doctor thinks of his patients. They come from a Supreme Court ruling on a woman's right to choose and stands on the shoulders of the thousands of women who died in back allies.

This thread is below you, Charles.

Well, about the whole bible gay abortion thing, this is what I have:

reply to post by windword

Dear windword,

You know I respect your opinion, and I'm sorry that I've fallen short of your expectations. I truly believe that my intent was different from how it struck you, but I think I've explained it and probably shouldn't bother you with a repetition.

I've read your posts over and over, and I think I see part of your objection. Do you feel that by putting up the video, I was leading people to hate, bomb, and kill? I don't see the immediate connection. Besides, the story was on Dudge, who has, what, a thousand times larger audience than ATS?

I've picked up a feeling for what is appropriate for ATS. Every day people look for the most recent police or military atrocity video. The shouts resound through the thred: "Kill him! Cops are Pigs!" If they try that on me, there'll be one less cop!" I doubt anyone here takes responsibility when a protester stabs a cop, or hits him over the head, or when a "Sovereign Citizen" attacks one.

Beyond prayer, I haven't even hinted at action against the doctor, abortion, women's rights, or women themselves. Any action that anyone takes should be lawful and designed to heal, not hurt.

There was no other reason for the original YouTube posters to post this but to inspire hate for this particular doctor. None! That hate may lead to violence to this man and his family and employees. There is no other reason!

Or, perhaps, to show what the extreme form of the abortion movement looks like.

These people are trying, and succeeding, in creating an environment of harassment and intimidation. It is their agenda, if they can't change the law, to scare abortion clinic workers out of their jobs and women out of their lawful decision. If you think that's not true, you need to open your eyes wider!

And while I do support prayer and protests, I don't support anything unlawful or dangerous. If the protest crosses the line from protected speech to illegal harassment, I hope they're charged.

Is the solution to not show what has happened? When the Doctor had had enough, he just closed the door on the "terrorists."

I am surprised that posting this tape makes me an accessory to murder. Should we ban tapes of Christians saying hateful things, or gays, or Muslims?

I am really sorry that I've disappointed you. But reposting a video that's been out on the web, and then NOT crying for violence, seems to me to be within the realm of the permissible.

Windword, you are a valuable guide and voice of passion for me. Please don't give up on me, continue to criticize as freely as you'd like. I need it.

With respect,
Charles1952

Originally posted by vasaga
Well, about the whole bible gay abortion thing, this is what I have:

Love it.

reply to post by charles1952


Okay, Charles,

When you first saw this video it made you sick, angry, furious in fact. So you took that anger, before you could develop words to express a thought out thesis and directive intent for your OP and your thread, and posted just the video. I'm sure you felt it spoke for itself, and would easily relay what words you were unable to find.

Then the Moderator told you that, according the rules, you must post your thoughts. Thus the headline: "I don't care about the rules on this one, I'm too upset, furious, stunned, whatever." I'm sure that's exactly the response the original protesters wanted, a displaced emotional response to illicit hate toward the doctor, that can be manipulatively transferred to their agenda of outlawing abortion (and birth control) altogether.

To me your headline translated, "Screw doing things the right way, by the book! It's time for some "whatever" remedy, because I just don't care what happens to these evil abortion doctors!" And it may very well have translated that way to others as well.

Can you see how I perceived that they manipulated you into promoting their agenda? You do seem to align yourself with the idea that there is an "abortion agenda."

The way I see it the "abortion agenda" should really be called the "Anti-abortion agenda." I have never seen an ad, anywhere, promoting abortion services. No coupons, no 2 for 1 deal, no punch cards. I have never heard of an abortion doctor going around impregnating women to drum up business.

I have seen some of the most draconian legislation being introduced by fundamentalist Christians, forcing many women back in time to "back ally abortions."
The Return of Back-Alley Abortions

And while I do support prayer and protests, I don't support anything unlawful or dangerous.

Okay. But don't you think that protesting at an abortion doctor's home and harassing the doctor is much the same as going to a soldier's home, whom participated in a battle that needlessly and ruthlessly killed innocent civilians and babies, and protesting the war directly to him/her? How is that productive?

Do you really think that when we see a video of a bad cop acting badly, the right thing to do is to demand an end to the police department? That's the analogy I see in the argument of posting this video. The doctors character has nothing to do with the legal service he provides.

You decry that this video exemplifies the evil nature of abortion. I say it exemplifies the emotional manipulation of a fanatic group of thugs, seeking to illicit hate.

Windword, you are a valuable guide and voice of passion for me. Please don't give up on me, continue to criticize as freely as you'd like. I need it.

Okay, that made me laugh. You got it!

reply to post by SilentKoala


Well Margaret Sanger is no longer in charge of PP is she?

Should we also disavow other organizations based on their unsavory pasts? Or can they be forgiven?

Abortion is an abomination and one of the things that are killing America

reply to post by windword

Dear windword,

Thanks for agreeing to stay on as my conscience. As far as the rest, I may not disagree with you very much. A small thing; no moderator spoke to me at any time about the thread. I knew there were posting rules, but I decided not to worry about them, indeed, to discard them. And I did have a thesis. Granted, it was more roar than precise argument, but it was simply that no good heart could say these things; look, and see evil.

I am willing to accept the possibility that many people were stirred to anger through this video. That's probably the same thinking behind PETA and their ads exhorting us not to eat meat while displaying dead animals.

To me your headline translated, "Screw doing things the right way, by the book! It's time for some "whatever" remedy, because I just don't care what happens to these evil abortion doctors!" And it may very well have translated that way to others as well.

As you probably know by now, that was clearly not my intent, and my OP showed I was talking about posting rules, not laws against murder.

They very well may have manipulated me into feeling strongly enough about their video that I chose to post it.

Is it possible that in spite of everything I said someone is spurred to their own evil? I hope not. If it was reasonable that they might have, then I must take responsibility for that. But for simply posting the video? I'm not sure I can take responsibility there.

Okay. But don't you think that protesting at an abortion doctor's home and harassing the doctor is much the same as going to a soldier's home, whom participated in a battle that needlessly and ruthlessly killed innocent civilians and babies, and protesting the war directly to him/her? How is that productive?

It may not be productive. How can I know? For this thread I don't care about that.

Do you really think that when we see a video of a bad cop acting badly, the right thing to do is to demand an end to the police department? That's the analogy I see in the argument of posting this video. The doctors character has nothing to do with the legal service he provides.

I somewhat agree with you here, in that I was not railing against abortion, but what I saw was evil in the doctor's heart. I would have felt the same way if he was a shoe salesman.

You decry that this video exemplifies the evil nature of abortion. I say it exemplifies the emotional manipulation of a fanatic group of thugs, seeking to illicit hate.

Please windword, go easy. If I ever a launch a tirade against abortion, it will be clear and easy to see. This was not it. I was not attacking abortion, women, or women's rights. That may be for some other day, if ever.

But you are right that I should be more conscious of the emotional sensibilities of ATS members, and will attempt to not be so dramatic.

Just as an aside, if you'd like to see me when I'm dramatic, here's a rant I made sometime ago. It's one of the few things I think I've done really well on ATS. (Yep, pride is one of my sins.) www.abovetopsecret.com...

Thanks for listening, windword, when I think a sister or friend would help, I'll call on you.

With respect,
Charles1952

They stopt slavery.
but that did not stop they way half of the americans think.

a lot of people live in a deluded world.
why do you think people like adolf got so much power?
Hate is the most used emotion,
Not love. a sad truth...