Spear Of Longinus

Hi All,

I've just finished reading the Spear of Destiny (great book) and have a question for anyone that knows anything about the topic.

Firstly, the spear that is currently on display at the Hofsburg is totally black - it looks like Its been freshly painted - including the gold, silver and copper(?) threads used to secure the nail into the center of the blade. I couldn't find any mention of the spear being painted black, or by who. I wouldn't have throught it normal practice to 'paint' an artifact, especially since its historical significance can be traced back hundreds of years.

Secondly, has there been any other books of note or research done on the spear? it seems to be a rather forgotten item, concidering its significance to Hitler and various other historical figures. I have difficulty believing that it was simply 'returned' back to the museum without anyone asking any questions, and with no further attempts by anyone else to aquire it. It would be interesting to find out where Himmler's exact copy ended up, and whether the version on display is indeed the real thing.

Does anyone know what the Vatican's take on the whole spear thing is? I would have thought that it would have been of MASSIVE interest for them!

Thanks Guys!

Q.

QD,

Though I can't answer your questions, I'm glad to find some one else who has read this book. I read it several years ago and it was awesome. I learned a lot about the roads of magic and the bizarre iconoclastic drives of Hitler.

Your questions are very intriguing and I will watch this thread to see what input you get.

It's regarded as a fake:
encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com...

Now... during the middle ages and the Crusades, a lot of returning pilgrims hunted for valuable "souveniers" for the glory of their churches at home. It is said that whole forests were levelled to produce "fragments of the True Cross" and other items were mass produced to sell to these European pilgrims.

For instance, there are at least three skulls that are identified as that of St. John, and lots of bones and body parts in reliquaries all around Europe.

This spear is apparently another of these artifacts. Although the early Church might have held it in great esteem, I doubt that the Vatican currently would assign much importance to it except as a fabricated cultural icon.

They spear on display at the Hofsburg has pretty much been proven to be a fake. But of interest is that the nail inside it might be the real deal, It does indeed come from the correct time to be a nail from the crucifixion.

There are rumours that the spear fell into the hands of the allies after WW2. But at about WW2 it really falls right off the map.

[edit on 11-10-2004 by ShadowXIX]

Remember, at the time that Christ died, none of these items were looked up as important. Nobody really cared about which particular cup Jesus drank out of during the last supper. Nobody would have cared about the particular spear that pierced Jesus's side. And nobody would have given much thought to the cross that he was crucified on.
At the time, Jesus's followers had more important things to do than to collect every little thing that Jesus happened to come in contact with.
These items werent deemed important until at least a couple hundred years after his death. By that time, most, if not all were long destroyed or lost.

Remember, at the time that Christ died, none of these items were looked up as important. Nobody really cared about which particular cup Jesus drank out of during the last supper. Nobody would have cared about the particular spear that pierced Jesus's side. And nobody would have given much thought to the cross that he was crucified on.

An important point, all too often forgotten by our common sense....

Whats this spear meant to do exactly? Does it have some special power or something?

I thought there were several of "Spears of Longinus" and they were not sure which was the real one... or wait is that the holy grail? in any case the myths around the spear are quite remarkable and anyone interested in the occult should take a look. You'll see why Hitler had such a facination with it and other Christian artifacts. Oh yea on a side note any of you ever heard of Hitler's facination with a lost society called Tool? It seems that Himler was obsessed with it and thats one of the reasons these artifacts were so saught after.

Oh and Shinji i dont know if anyone has answerd your question but if i remember correctly legend has it that any army that carries this spear into battle will not lose. It may seem hard to believe but take a look at the spears supposed history and you might be supprised.

I knew the History Channel did a segment about it. store.aetv.com...
This subject is rather interesting, like others had previous said, the spear had been declared a fake except for the nail, which was from around the time of the crucifixon. Hope this helps.

Originally posted by apw100
Remember, at the time that Christ died, none of these items were looked up as important. Nobody really cared about which particular cup Jesus drank out of during the last supper. Nobody would have cared about the particular spear that pierced Jesus's side. And nobody would have given much thought to the cross that he was crucified on.
At the time, Jesus's followers had more important things to do than to collect every little thing that Jesus happened to come in contact with.
These items werent deemed important until at least a couple hundred years after his death. By that time, most, if not all were long destroyed or lost.

Longinus was nearly blind at the time Jesus was crucified, When he stabed Jesus some of the blood got into his eyes and his vision was restored. So if something this amazing hapened to Longinus I could see him thinking of the spear as important. Longinus even went on to quit the Roman army and set out preaching about Christ Jesus the Son of God. So Jesus became very important to him and since Jesus was no longer alive its not hard to think he would carry something to remember him.

If Jesus came to your town and healed people and preformed miracles you would be suprised how many people would keep things related to him. Not so much people that traveled with him but people that might have only seen him passing through would most likely want something to remember him.

There were many people that Jesus was important to and these are the people that would save things that were important to his life and death.


Jinxxd is correct about the power of the spear but also if someone that carries it drops it in battle defeat is assured for the person carrying it. Charlemagne carried the spear through 47 successful battles, but died when he accidentally dropped it or so the story goes.

Thanks guys.. interesting mix of responses.

AWP100 - A very good point, fragments of the original cross would surely be fake, I can't see John the baptist taking Jesus' body away, and going "Hang on - just need to take a chip of this for future collectors". The nail is interesting.. shame it can't be tested for DNA to see if its even got blood on it. I guess the interesting thing here to think about is that if we take the texts as being true, when Jesus was stabbed with the spear, blood and water flowed out. Apparently a thunderstorm pretty much blackened out the sky, and Jesus body began to glow with a 'holy light'. I just wonder, if this was actually true, would this have had any impact on the people there?? I can understand the resoning then for keeping a nail from the cross, or whatever they could get. Something like that would have certainly changed a person's perspective!

ShadowXIX: yes, the spear was found under the Nurenburg castle in the vaults by the allies. Apparently general Patton held it pretty much at the same time that Hitler shot himself, as one of the rumoured powers revolved around the person who lost the spear would also loose their life. Patton understood what it was - but as far as we know, did nothing about it. This was I guess, part of my question, if they had the spear, and Patton knew of its significance, would he have just handed it back? I would have thought that having an exact copy (made by Himmler for his personal chamber in the nazi's castle) would have been a good substitute.

the spear itself was supposed to have been some type of important or symbolic item before it was used at the crucifixion, so who knows.

Out of interest, does anyone have any good pictures of it? I have found a coule via google images, but it seems to be the same images over and over again. Also, how long is the actual spear head?

EDIT: Not quite sure if its just me, but the old black and white photos seem to show the threads holding it together as being.. well.. shiny.. Which certainly isn't consistent with a totally matt black paint job.. it seems to imply that they are metalic.

Q.



[edit on 11-10-2004 by QuakeDude]

So Jesus became very important to him and since Jesus was no longer alive its not hard to think he would carry something to remember him.

Odd response, I'd think he'd want to destroy such a reminder of his own misdeed....

Longinus was cursed with immortality for his actions. Is it possible that he still posseses the spear? If this were true of course.

If the original Spear was on display still, then I'd be inclined to believe that it might not be the real deal.. however.. having one on display which doesn't appear to be the original spear seems to lend some weight to its background.. why not have it open on display? Is it dangerous to do so? remembering that a number of people have been 'affected' by standing in its presence seems to imply that the one which was on display before the war was indeed not just 'any' spear.

I could be reading too much into this, but I find it fascinating that there seem to have been measures taken to protect this item when there seems no point - if it is indeed just 'another spearhead'.

Q.

Longinus was cursed with immortality for his actions. Is it possible that he still posseses the spear? If this were true of course.

Yep, a few immortals walking around it seems, if one were to believe the bible... Cain, Lilith, Longinus...

Wonder if there can be only one?

*cues Queen's "Princes of the Universe" music*

Can you imagine sitting in a bar sharing stories with that lot?

Cain: I killed my brother.
Lilith: I just wanted on top!
Longinus: Aw, Shaddup, I stabbed the Messiah!



[edit on 14-10-2004 by Der Kapitan]

Hey QuakeDude:

FYI "John the Baptist" (R. Yohanon bar Zechariah the Baptist) died BEFORE "Iesous" (R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean). "Jesus" and "Peter" and "Andrew" were also disciples of John until he was beheaded.

"Jesus" didn't start gathering his own disciples ("follow me...") until John died, and possibly asked those of John's original disciples to follow him after John left them like "sheep without a shepherd..."

But the point of course is that Relics of Saints did not seriously start coming into vogue until the time of Constantine when Chrsitianity became a state religion...

Even the disciples probably "all fled" for their lives after the arrest of "Jesus" ---one of them according to Mark's gospel even fled naked---on the hill and probably did not witness the crucifixion event itself---and may not even have known where he was even buried---hence the confusion inherent in the Resurrection pericopes, none of which match each other in the socalled Gospels... there may have been one witness, Yohanon the Elder whoever he was (not one of the 12) : "this is the disciple who witnessed these things on the cross" is written in the margin of John's gospel and underneath is a 2nd marginal note: "and WE know that HIS witnesses is reliable..."

But even if a random follower of "jesus" witnessed the execution, he was not on any souvenir hunting expedition collecting blood at the foot of the cross, or wondering how he could lay his hands on the cup of the last supper...or even save the nails used to string the man up in the first place...much less the "cross" itself...

Look how many of even Mozart's personal effects were given away immediately after his death, as if they meant nothing...only later did the widow Constanza regret having given away half of his everyday stuff that people today would pay millions for.

Amadeus: I need to find the actual quote, but the spear was already a roman "artifact" before it was supposely plunged into the side of chist.. From memory, it was some sort of special item of its own right, and was carried by the centurion as a symbol authority.. Whether this is true or not who the hell knows, but would an item which was held in regard back then have had more of a chance to have been 'kept' through the ages? I mean, if it had a history back then?

Q.

Originally posted by QuakeDude
Amadeus: I need to find the actual quote, but the spear was already a roman "artifact" before it was supposely plunged into the side of chist.. From memory, it was some sort of special item of its own right, and was carried by the centurion as a symbol authority.. Whether this is true or not who the hell knows, but would an item which was held in regard back then have had more of a chance to have been 'kept' through the ages? I mean, if it had a history back then?

Q.

There are actually several books out on this subject and the one I read had a detailed history of the Spear.

The reason why it may appear freshly painted, if it is the real one, is because it was made before the flood by Tubal-Cain at Twice the Barometric Pressure that we know today and it will not rust.

They have found several metal objects through the years that also will not rust - in other words they look brand new.

The secret societies that exist now, existed then, and I can assure you that they were very aware of Y'shua's existance and they actually sacrified him in accordance with ancient ritual and thus, they would have used that spear in the ritual if they had it - if this whole subject is real.

As far as immortals - how do you think that the Beast survives his mortal head wound during the tribulation...

This sort of stuff is utterly fascinating to me. I LOVE a good story.

Can you imagine if there really was a "wandering jew", and the other few immortals already named? If that's what God did when you crossed him I'd be whackin' Popes left and right till I got "cursed" to immortality.


If I had one wish, it would be to have been born as an immortal at about 5000 BC.

I'd know if the major religions were right or wrong.

I'd know a great deal about history, have probably mastered several languages, etc.

I would probably have met some really important people in history, since I'd have the knowledge of hundreds of lifetimes, the wealth accrued during that time, and of course the ability to singlehandedly assault a regiment.

I would -OWN- the ancient civs forum.

And my knack for procrastination would almost be a benefit if I had all of eternity to pass.