Lucifer and the Masonic Lie of Theosophy

Originally posted by Valhall

Originally posted by EnochWasRight

Thank you for the honesty. Scripture is of God's interpretation. Those seeds express in our soil uniquely.

I actually agree with this. Problem is that's not God standing in the pulpit spewing out man-made interpretations and dogma. That's the issue I have with organized religions...in general, whether it's a church or an organization. Once they come up with their "teachings" (doctrines, dogma, rituals, etc.) it's all their opinion.

A good example of what I just said in my last post is the angry boss that rules employees with fear. He is empty inside and fills the void by ruling over others. The opposite of this is the boss that is kind and helps employees in their difficulty instead of yelling all the time. What is the difference? One is empty and the other is filled. The boss that is filled is patient with the error in others and uses what is inside to fill the other person. Judgment is gone in this case. Instead, intellect rules emotion and the work environment is much more pleasing and productive than the one where judgment rules.

The same is true with a church and preachers who are also human like us. Patience is a virtue, as are all other qualities worth possessing. Filling our own soul with virtue heals the image we have of others. What we see in them is truly what we see in ourselves first.

reply to post by EnochWasRight



Well, I'm responding to the last two posts you made.

That's a load of tripe.

Listen, this isn't about somebody telling me something I don't want to hear. This is about a huge group of organizations that spew dogma unbacked by the black letters (and sometimes red ones) on the white pages in the book I'm reading. This isn't about "seeing something in someone else that's actually in me", it's about being able to read and then listen, and then having the cognizance to detect the difference.

Irrespective of what form of organized religion you want to talk about - and to clear up what I believe are religions that would include:

Any readily recognized major religion
Freemasonry
Theosophy
Atheism
Luciferianism

...any organization that puts out its "teachings" and then draws membership who agree to accept those "teachings"...

those teachings tend to be a set of items that consist of actions, restrictions, and required acts of piety toward the DOGMA not toward abidance of any said real concrete "thing". The whole structure is an organization that brings followers into abidance of the man-made constructs. Even atheism. As far as I'm concerned they've become organized and it's always been a belief. A belief to not believe the other stuff.

Anyway. You're just trying to shove the dogma you've accepted down everybody else's throats and anybody who wants to point out the truly silly nature of that you're going to try to push back with platitudes and unintelligible double-speak.

That's what I see.

And before you start trying to categorize me...I'm a christian. I just choose to use my free moral agency in a way that doesn't make me a slave to another man's silly dogma. I can read, comprehend and choose for myself.

Originally posted by EnochWasRight
Scripture is of God's interpretation.

That sentence doesn't make sense.
Might explain your radishes though

Fitz

Originally posted by Valhall
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

Well, I'm responding to the last two posts you made.

That's a load of tripe.

Listen, this isn't about somebody telling me something I don't want to hear. This is about a huge group of organizations that spew dogma unbacked by the black letters (and sometimes red ones) on the white pages in the book I'm reading. This isn't about "seeing something in someone else that's actually in me", it's about being able to read and then listen, and then having the cognizance to detect the difference.

Irrespective of what form of organized religion you want to talk about - and to clear up what I believe are religions that would include:

Any readily recognized major religion
Freemasonry
Theosophy
Atheism
Luciferianism

...any organization that puts out its "teachings" and then draws membership who agree to accept those "teachings"...

those teachings tend to be a set of items that consist of actions, restrictions, and required acts of piety toward the DOGMA not toward abidance of any said real concrete "thing". The whole structure is an organization that brings followers into abidance of the man-made constructs. Even atheism. As far as I'm concerned they've become organized and it's always been a belief. A belief to not believe the other stuff.

Anyway. You're just trying to shove the dogma you've accepted down everybody else's throats and anybody who wants to point out the truly silly nature of that you're going to try to push back with platitudes and unintelligible double-speak.

That's what I see.

And before you start trying to categorize me...I'm a christian. I just choose to use my free moral agency in a way that doesn't make me a slave to another man's silly dogma. I can read, comprehend and choose for myself.

edit on 8-8-2012 by Valhall because: (no reason given)

So, there are no absolutes or standards to follow besides the ones you agree with in yourself? Is that about right? In other words, WIFI should be designed by each computer company that makes a computer and no standard is to be set, as this would be a construct of some authority?

Like I said, it's an authority issue within yourself.

Let me ask you something EnochWasRight and I want an intelligent, straight-forward answer to this.

Why in the wide wide world of sports do you care what the Masons teach or what Theosophy teaches? or Hinduism, or Buddhism or Islam?

Why do you care? What difference does it make other than you are picking at what other people either believe or don't believe? Is there something in the dogma you are following that requires you go out and denigrate other people's beliefs? Does it matter in your own personal life what the dude down the street has chosen to believe, follow, abide to as far as beliefs systems?

I never have understood the obsession that can overtake some people in trying to dissect and then attack other belief systems. Who cares?

Or....have you not taken the time to read the more TRUE literal translations of the more ancient manuscripts? Are you deluded into believing the erroneous King James version of Paul's speech on Mount Mars? That which cast the Greeks in a bad light by using "superstitious"? Have you not taken the time to research and see that the proper translation of the word he used was "religious"? Do you not see that Paul was not condemning of the Greeks but complementing them that they were attempting to pay homage to ALL the gods they believed (or even considered) might exist? Even the "unknown God". And he stated to them...that of which you are ignorant I am hear to teach you.

He wasn't ridiculing them of their beliefs, he was there to tell them about his God.

I've been quite vocal in the past (and pissed some people off doing it) at my ridicule of some of the silly rituals the religious organizations push on people and then lie to those people to make them think if they don't perform those barbaric man-made things they may "lose their salvation". Like eating the "Jesus cracker" for Christ's sake (literally). I don't mind stating my opinion, but at the same time I also follow up that I have absolutely nothing against anyone who decides to take on those rituals and follow that dogma. That's their exercise of their free moral agency.

The great thing about being a free moral agent is that in exercising it, you don't relinquish it. I'm not real sure why you want to spend this energy on tearing into someone else's exercise of that decision. It doesn't really change your life.

I think the last couple of posts between EnochWasRight and Valhall are rather interesting and my take on it is i agree with certin points both you have made, first i am not a big supporter of organized religion for a few different factors one is the split of the denominations of the spirituality of Christianity, alls this does is cause a void and separation between Christians when we should strive to be in Christ in unity not separation.

I also don't think that the King James Bible should be the end all be all true translation of the word of God by doing this it does two things... first it's putting King James into a almost God like idol that his version is the end all be all plus other adaptations of the old and new testaments are just as good in most cases.


However i do greatly appreciate the teachings and interpretations of the word of God by EnochWasRight he does bring up some good and very true points about the word of God and spreading the gospel is a good thing, plus you can always learn by many peoples theological views no mater what sex race age religion/spiritual beliefs they are.




Just my two cents.

I've followed this thread closely, mainly because I enjoy a good arguement and EWR delivers.

Let me give you my take as someone who was initiated into mystery school practice at a very young age and was quite active until 2004.

The fundamental give or take EWR speaks about is very real as is the know them by their fruit comment. Masonic tradition and Lucifer is headline grabbing but if you do your research it is all put out by fundamentalist Christian nutjobs. There is no real Mason Lucifer connection.

Still the people that run things are and have been Masons. Those people have created the perpetual system of thievery and taking we live in. The true givers such as Christ are shunned persecuted and undervalued just as in Christs day. Everyone wants to take something for nothing. That is the point people are missing whether Christianity is involved or not.

The problem with Christ as the Savior and Bible as be all end all is this.

1) The void came first darkness the canvas (this having no connotation with evil)

Who created the void?

2) God manifested inside the void.

Why?

Everything created in this space is from God yet God is a jealous God.
Jealous of whom or what and why?

There is the creator and the God of Abraham. The God of Abraham is jealous the God of Abraham created Satan and Christ as you say the twins. The God of Abraham is inside the same paradox we are placed in duality.

The God of Abraham is not Creator he was created as he created us. The Creator is infallible indescribable and unknown by any law. It is only in this minuscule context that I can even hint. Search my truth. The Creator is my master and God is my father. Chicken and egg.

Originally posted by ISHAMAGI
I've followed this thread closely, mainly because I enjoy a good arguement and EWR delivers.

Let me give you my take as someone who was initiated into mystery school practice at a very young age and was quite active until 2004.

The fundamental give or take EWR speaks about is very real as is the know them by their fruit comment. Masonic tradition and Lucifer is headline grabbing but if you do your research it is all put out by fundamentalist Christian nutjobs. There is no real Mason Lucifer connection.

Still the people that run things are and have been Masons. Those people have created the perpetual system of thievery and taking we live in. The true givers such as Christ are shunned persecuted and undervalued just as in Christs day. Everyone wants to take something for nothing. That is the point people are missing whether Christianity is involved or not.

The problem with Christ as the Savior and Bible as be all end all is this.

1) The void came first darkness the canvas (this having no connotation with evil)

Who created the void?

2) God manifested inside the void.

Why?

Everything created in this space is from God yet God is a jealous God.
Jealous of whom or what and why?

There is the creator and the God of Abraham. The God of Abraham is jealous the God of Abraham created Satan and Christ as you say the twins. The God of Abraham is inside the same paradox we are placed in duality.

The God of Abraham is not Creator he was created as he created us. The Creator is infallible indescribable and unknown by any law. It is only in this minuscule context that I can even hint. Search my truth. The Creator is my master and God is my father. Chicken and egg.

Good post but this is what i think, first as i have stated a few pages ago i don't subscribe to the concept of duality the proverbial ying and yang if you will, i feel it's nonsense because good does not need evil it's what i feel is the major flaw of some of the asian religions.

Also you say God manifested inside the void known as darkness i don't really agree with that i think that God always was, to your point of chicken and egg coming into fruition God being the chicken the void being the egg.

I do agree with your point about fundamentalist Christian's as i stated before when one reads the Bible they should start with the teachings of Jesus Christ then if they want to go back and read the old testament read it with the teachings of Jesus in mind because as i have said earlier i feel more then a few of the old testament prophets misunderstood certin aspects of the teachings of God and it wasen't until Jesus taught what God really meant that things start to make much more sense, such is my point of Moses being giving the ten commandments which one clearly stated "Thou shalt not kill" and then Moses gos and kills some of his people who were worshiping the golden calf when clearly Jesus made it be known that people from different religious/spiritual beliefs or non believers could also be saved which translates into Moses not understanding Gods words in some aspects.

reply to post by ISHAMAGI


im going to have to think about this and get back to you. Its revealing.

reply to post by King Seesar


Good post. I don't accept any form of duality. I think that there being a slew of religious leaders out there spewing forms of the concept of duality and instilling in their followers that there is some great menace against God they need to be virulent warriors against is what drives a lot of christians to do just the opposite of what Jesus's words, actions and message taught we should - be accepting, tolerant and above all loving. In fact, I do believe he said if there is someone we disagree with, we need to strive to dig deeper in the love area for that person. He didn't push out, nor did he live, any type of intolerance of other people. He never told anyone to go "convert". He simply commissioned to share his message.

So many atrocities have been committed against humans and against the words of Christ because of mistranslations that have been used as gaping loopholes to achieve the desires of man instead of God.

Thou shalt not kill. The proper translation is thou shalt not murder. Doesn't matter which way you translate that one, there's a heaping helping of Catholic and protestant acts that are evidence they just decided they'd disregard that particular commandment.

Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord in vain. The more proper translation is thou shalt not take (or use) the name of the Lord in a vain cause. So you've got all these Catholics and protestants over the centuries who wouldn't dare say "God-damned" because they decided speaking His name in less than a reverent manner might land your ass in hell, but they darned sure committed a crap load of atrocities using the name of the Lord in their vain causes. Easy peasy...just translate it, interpret it and preach it wrongly and you can get around it.

There is no duality as far as I believe. There is no threat to God and there is no evil in or from God. There is either a presence of God or some measure of the lack of the presence of God. There is either light or there is the absence of light (named darkness). Darkness does not come from light nor from God. It's just the absence of...just like there is no such thing as a void, there's just the possibility of an absence of all. To me the scariest description of "hell" would be a place where there is a total absence of the presence of God. None of us, irrespective of what we believe or don't believe, has ever lived in a place that has absolutely no presence of God. I don't ever want to either.

Those are my beliefs. While I can't accept someone else's beliefs for myself, I will choose to act as Christ instructed. I'll accept the person and that their beliefs are what they have chosen to believe (or not believe). No need to pound them into something different.

I did not come up with the concept that the void.
was first but even if they appeared simultaneously how? Why? And by the architects hand.

reply to post by Valhall


I do not believe in duality on a spiritual level yes in the pure sense. The Bible illustrates duality for us here.

Duality does and must exist in this material universe it is the backbone. It is the squared circle. It is the X & Y chromosome. The hate for the love and the indifference for the concern. Our language direction etc. Is based around this concept. In the most basic sense earth is a school to learn balance and see through this paradox even as one is immersed in it.

Originally posted by ISHAMAGI
reply to post by Valhall

 

I do not believe in duality on a spiritual level yes in the pure sense. The Bible illustrates duality for us here.

Duality does and must exist in this material universe it is the backbone. It is the squared circle. It is the X & Y chromosome. The hate for the love and the indifference for the concern. Our language direction etc. Is based around this concept. In the most basic sense earth is a school to learn balance and see through this paradox even as one is immersed in it.

Correct in as far as concepts and terms such as "hate" are constructs of man. But my belief is there is either love or an absence of love (indifference, discompassion, a void of a positive emotion (of affinity if you will) of any kind). Hate, I don't actually believe that really exists. I think the man-made concept of "hate" was constructed to try to describe the combination of a total lack of love or compassion combined with overwhelming anger and resentment. If we define the word "hate" as an absence of positive emotion toward "this thing" and an abundance of negative emotion to ward "this thing", then I can accept that in HUMANS there is hate. But I can only accept the concept as I've just described.

But I also think you and I may be referring to the concept of "duality" in different ways. I will define duality as I am using it, so we can be clear. Dualism - the concept that there are two equal forces; one being God and the other being some form of an evil nemesis (i.e. Satan, Lucifer, or just calling "evil" as if it actually exists and threatens God). That is the duality I am referring to and which I reject as a totally man-made construct.

Originally posted by KSigMason
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

Freemasons that are Christian do not deny Christ. In fact, there are many fine devout Christians who are in the Masons. Freemasonry as an organization is not anti-Christian.

Am I to assume you are against knowledge, enlightenment? To me, an enlightened mind is the mind for God.

How can there really be any Christian Freemasons?

A Christian who has faith in Jesus, is already saved, and has no need to "improve himself" by joining Freemasonry.

How can Freemasonry make a Good Christian better?

This is logically impossible.

Not by works are Christians improved, but by the Grace of the Lord.

There's nothing a man can do to elevate himself.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
== KJV Ephesians 2:8 bible.cc...

Therefore, Freemasonry's claim to "make good men better" can only apply to non-Christians.

What then are Christians doing in Freemasonry?

Are they "teaching" other Freemasons how to find the Lord?

Originally posted by Agoyahtah

Originally posted by KSigMason
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

Freemasons that are Christian do not deny Christ. In fact, there are many fine devout Christians who are in the Masons. Freemasonry as an organization is not anti-Christian.

Am I to assume you are against knowledge, enlightenment? To me, an enlightened mind is the mind for God.

How can there really be any Christian Freemasons?

A Christian who has faith in Jesus, is already saved, and has no need to "improve himself" by joining Freemasonry.

How can Freemasonry make a Good Christian better?

This is logically impossible.

Not by works are Christians improved, but by the Grace of the Lord.

There's nothing a man can do to elevate himself.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
== KJV Ephesians 2:8 bible.cc...

Therefore, Freemasonry's claim to "make good men better" can only apply to non-Christians.

What then are Christians doing in Freemasonry?

Are they "teaching" other Freemasons how to find the Lord?

So are you advocating that based solely on that verse of Ephesians that we, as men, should strive for the minimum and ask God to do everything else...

I think Benjamin Franklin said it best.

"God helps those who help themselves."

We should constantly be trying to better ourselves. To think we cannot improve is either extreme hubris or laziness.

Originally posted by Dreine

So are you advocating that based solely on that verse of Ephesians that we, as men, should strive for the minimum and ask God to do everything else...

No, we should not strive at all. When the Lord created Adam and Eve, they did not strive for anything, until they sinned. It is only when they disobeyed that they were cast out and required to strive:

Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
KJV Genesis 3:23

Previous to the first sin, man's obligation was simply to enjoy the garden the Lord created. The Lord only introduced "Labor" as a punishment for the sin of disobedience.

But, when Jesus came, he wiped away the sin, thus returning "his followers" to the original condition before the sin.

Only non-Christians have to continue to strive, because they are on a different path.

I think Benjamin Franklin said it best.

"God helps those who help themselves."

But, that's Benjamin Franklin, not the Bible.

If man could help himself, then God would have had no need to send Jesus to help. All Jesus did was "bring a message" to man. The message says Jesus pays for the sin and some men are therefore freed from striving. That's the whole message.

We should constantly be trying to better ourselves. To think we cannot improve is either extreme hubris or laziness.

That's a wise philosophy for a non-Christian. If you're not saved, the next best thing is to see what you can do about it for yourself. So, I'm not saying that Freemasonry is a bad thing. It's probably great for those who have been left out of the "select" group of true followers of Jesus. But, for the true Christian, Freemasonry adds nothing that they don't already have.

Originally posted by Agoyahtah
A Christian who has faith in Jesus, is already saved, and has no need to "improve himself" by joining Freemasonry.

The Westboro Baptist Church has 'faith in Jesus'. I can see why you think they can not improve further, they are a shinning example of Christianity, you should be proud.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

The Westboro Baptist Church has 'faith in Jesus'. I can see why you think they can not improve further, they are a shinning example of Christianity, you should be proud.

True followers of Jesus cannot improve further, but some are encouraged to spread the word, so that others can hear the message and realize that they too are saved.

People spread the word in different ways. Some publish books, some post in forums, some go on TV, some use radio broadcasting, etc..different approaches are used to get the word out.

However, not everyone that spreads the word is a true Christian that is saved.

The Lord also employs non-Christians to spread the word,

And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. Mark 9:38

But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. Mark 9:39

For he that is not against us is on our part. Mark 9:40

So, even if true Christians see some people doing things they know is non-Christian, as long as it doesn't interfere with Christianity, as long as it is "not against us," they are required to leave that activity alone. The Lord, in his own mysterious way, is using those people to draw attention to the word and carry out his plan.

When the time comes to be judged, however, many people who think they are Christian will be shocked, that they are not in the book of life.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
KJV Matthew 7:22 bible.cc...

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
KJV Matthew 7:23 bible.cc...

So the real Christians know what defines a true Christian, but they don't interfere with others proclaiming to do works in the name of Christ, because they know at the appointed time the Lord judges all rightly in the end.

Originally posted by Agoyahtah
So the real Christians know what defines a true Christian, but they don't interfere with others proclaiming to do works in the name of Christ, because they know at the appointed time the Lord judges all rightly in the end.

And so begins the war of who has the true faith (whether Christian or otherwise). It's a sad comment that there's a vocal minority Hell-bent on repeating history's mistakes

Fitz

Originally posted by Agoyahtah
So the real Christians know what defines a true Christian, but they don't interfere with others proclaiming to do works in the name of Christ, because they know at the appointed time the Lord judges all rightly in the end.

And so begins the war of who has the true faith (whether Christian or otherwise). It's a sad comment that there's a vocal minority Hell-bent on repeating history's mistakes

Fitz