Do you want the Nation state to continue? Or do you have a better idea?

The Nation state

The nation state is a state that self-identifies as deriving its political legitimacy from serving as a sovereign entity for a nation as a sovereign territorial unit.[1] The state is a political and geopolitical entity; the nation is a cultural and/or ethnic entity. The term "nation state" implies that the two geographically coincide. Nation state formation took place at different times in different parts of the earth but has become the dominant form of state organization.

After watching the Olympic opening ceremony and seeing all these participating countries and after reading a few threads on ATS, it got me wondering about the nature of the nation state and whether it is a a concept that will continue to survive into the next century. We now have corporations who are richer than many nation states and the markets have the power to dictate a nation states sovereign policy.

So what does a nation state provide it's citizens and what would be an alternative to the nation state? A one world community for example?

So it can be argued a Nation state provides the nation with defense of it's borders, the rule of law and contracts and a social safety net. It provides it's citizens with an identity that the citizens can identify with through shared culture , norms and beliefs.

I find it interesting that there is a lot a nationalism and patriotism on ATS , but it is coupled with an anti establishment sentiment. So while being a patriot, do you also believe in the idea of the nation state?

So are you happy with this the current nation state system we have, or do you have a better idea?

Borders are imaginary lines that were invented by humans.

IMO, as our species progresses and evolves mentally we will get rid of these imaginary lines that keep us divided and eventually we will have a one world government.

reply to post by woodwardjnr

Do you imagine a country defined/sponsored by the likes of GE et al?

Originally posted by muse7
Borders are imaginary lines that were invented by humans.

IMO, as our species progresses and evolves mentally we will get rid of these imaginary lines that keep us divided and eventually we will have a one world government.

It certainly seems to be becoming an out dated entity, but many people are still very patriotic and proud of their nations. I wonder if as we see a move towards more globalisation, we will also see more break away local and regional groups. The EU looks like it will break up, even the UK could be split, if Scotland chooses independence. So there is a strange dichotomy also taking place.

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by woodwardjnr

 

Do you imagine a country defined/sponsored by the likes of GE et al?

Possibly break away corporate republics? Possibly more things like Peter Thiel's idea of a floating Libertarian Island

Thiel has been a big backer of the Seasteading Institute, which seeks to build sovereign nations on oil rig-like platforms to occupy waters beyond the reach of law-of-the-sea treaties. The idea is for these countries to start from scratch--free from the laws, regulations, and moral codes of any existing place. Details says the experiment would be "a kind of floating petri dish for implementing policies that libertarians, stymied by indifference at the voting booths, have been unable to advance: no welfare, looser building codes, no minimum wage, and few restrictions on weapons."

news.yahoo.com...


Heaven for some ATS members I imagine

About a month ago I'd have some words for you about the one world government idea, but I'm working on a theory now that the only way we'll move on as a species and stop having wars etc is after a world war. Which you need for two main reasons, depopulation so start up is much less complicated, and you need all the negative mental affects of the war such as constant fear, constant insecurity and the very real fact you have little to no control over your everyday life, add the pain of lost loved ones and the impact of seeing your city destroyed etc and what do you get?

The first step in true brain washing, the person will be broke at this moment, and Only under these circumstances can religious hate, racial hate, even territorial disputes slowly be chipped away and replaced with good. Other wise without such extreme mental stress the idea that im an extremist and your a jew will still be strong enough to over ride the new ideas.

I firmly believe a massive war will be the only way to get people to not ignore cultural differences but tolerate them and eventually embrace them because their city isn't there anymore, their house isn't there anymore, nothing is familiar. this is when you'll see the radical muslem stop and help the fallen jew or vice verca

reply to post by woodwardjnr

Don't you find similarities between the old "company towns" and future nation "states" with corporate laws versus laws imposed by more traditional governments?

reply to post by beezzer


Yeah, I can see the similarities, or similar in a way to the old mill towns of the industrial revolution. The thing is those towns were established to accomodate a large work force. Something that does not exist anymore and with automation not as needed as it once was.

Originally posted by woodwardjnr
reply to post by beezzer

 

Yeah, I can see the similarities, or similar in a way to the old mill towns of the industrial revolution. The thing is those towns were established to accomodate a large work force. Something that does not exist anymore and with automation not as needed as it once was.

Lets pick GE for example.

A town could have a GE hospital, GE grocery store, a GE plumbing service, a GE sports store, a GE coffee shop, a GE shoe shop, a GE clothes store. . . . the list is endless.

reply to post by beezzer


Yeah pick any corp you want. GE is a good one as they have their fingers in so many pies. In the UK it will probably be Tesco. Tesco hospital Tesco, school, they will probably contract out policing and security to G4S.

But how does one protect that new corporate state, who owns the nukes and the planes and the carriers?

I think nation states are important, they are in themselves kinda like social Petri dishes... for the world to assess.

Having said that, boarders and immigration control is pretty out of whack with what I would like to see...

I have this crazy ideal... that boarders should only define regions of political ideology, mind sets, and goals... Nobody should be denied from entering another country, unless they are deemed a 'threat'. Take America, for example... If the US were to allow for open immigration, and allowed for every person who wants to be a citizen, to be a citizen and live in the US, you would see some amazing outcomes.

We would be forced to innovate around the population increase, strengthen out infrastructure, and improve our methods. China has trouble with this, because of their government... and history of governance, simply put. But here in good ole' American... we still have this problem, but we are forever battling against it. And winning the race I might add...

Now... here's a fun song about boarders. I suggest checking out this song, EVERYONE!!! Serj Tankian... ya know, that one crazy guy...

Borders are the gallows
Of our collective national egos
Subjective, lines in sand
In the water, separating everything

Fear is the cause of separation
Backed with illicit conversations
Procured by constant condemnations
National blood-painted persuasions

Here's my song for the free
No, it's not about praise and publicity
Corprotocracy, what a hypocrisy
Aristocrasy versus democracy

I think it is possible for the world to come together as a community while letting each country keep a sense of patriotism and cultural pride/identity. I mean within most countries, you will find differences among its citizens based on geographic location, for example states in the US. You have different accents, local foods, local legends, places of historical importance, traditions, celebrations, etc. This is basically how I can see a one world community working, except each country would be like a US state.

The only way to combat intolerance to keep peace would be education. To embrace things like multiculturalism and learn about each other. There will probably always be extremists but if we can get the majority of the worlds population to think rationally, a one world government could run fairly smoothly. I don't think we need some great war, because all that will do is delay the next one. The memory of how horrible things were would be gone in a few generations and we would be back to square one.

Obviously we would need to get better at sharing resources as well which I cannot see happening until capitalism, as least in its current form not in theory, falls by the wayside.

Originally posted by woodwardjnr
reply to post by beezzer

 

Yeah pick any corp you want. GE is a good one as they have their fingers in so many pies. In the UK it will probably be Tesco. Tesco hospital Tesco, school, they will probably contract out policing and security to G4S.

But how does one protect that new corporate state, who owns the nukes and the planes and the carriers?

The nukes and planes and drones are all built by private companies contracted out by the government. GE, McDonald Douglas, General Dynamics, they are all power houses within the defense "realm" already.

reply to post by acmpnsfal


Imo It cannot work without the tragedy. I'm trying to figure out a recipe if you will for true peace and human development. Honestly the people I've always feared or despised are going to have to fund the whole thing basically so yea, it all seems inevitable.

Do you believe without drastic change in conscious and mind that traditional Jews could dine with, work with, live with the traditional Muslem? Would you remove the majority of Chinese disdain for America? If our elite end up runnin the show then you better bet china and russsia would do as they must to end immediately...

Sadly I feel tragedy must happen on a mass scale and for a prolonged period of time to wash away enough of these differences and bad sentiments. Truly everyone would be as fragile as a baby, bravado gone, confidence gone, borders gone, house and city gone, you will do as you have to to survive, The Palestinian will dine next to the jew.

Never will these things happen without pretty much Global "MkUltra", break everyone and make them fragile and within say 3 to 5 generations and societal format would have changed

Originally posted by Silo4
reply to post by acmpnsfal

 

Do you believe without drastic change in conscious and mind that traditional Jews could dine with, work with, live with the traditional Muslem? Would you remove the majority of Chinese disdain for America? If our elite end up runnin the show then you better bet china and russsia would do as they must to end immediately...

I do think that its possible but only because "mainstream" Abrahamic religions are becoming more tolerant towards each other. I have seen interfaith councils (Jews, Muslims, and Christians) and what not here and there. They are coming together under the banner of believing in a god in an effort to do good and promote solidarity between their own communities. They are also trying to combat the increase in atheism and agnosticism so this can only improve. Hatred is not cool anymore, lol. Thats what turns a lot of people off about religion, even among the religious. So to keep people coming in you have to change the message.

But this is also where education comes in. I mean at least among the religious, they get stuck on superficial differences. Like, "oh look they pray on mats how silly!" but when they actually learn that the religion is teaching the same core values they get dont mind the little stuff. But as for big nations with sketchy histories like China and the US, the big problem there would be the governments, not necessarily the citizens. But im sure if it was no longer advantageous for them to have pissing contests, they would stop.

Sadly I feel tragedy must happen on a mass scale and for a prolonged period of time to wash away enough of these differences and bad sentiments. Truly everyone would be as fragile as a baby, bravado gone, confidence gone, borders gone, house and city gone, you will do as you have to to survive, The Palestinian will dine next to the jew.

Never will these things happen without pretty much Global "MkUltra", break everyone and make them fragile and within say 3 to 5 generations and societal format would have changed

I really don't see how that would do anything to help humanity in the long run. I mean once society rebuilt, people would start playing the blame game all over the world, every nation would probably blame another for what happened. I mean the Jew and the Palestinian who just lost everything may dine together, but they would also create a new common enemy in their minds-back to square one. We need to change whats happening within the framework we already have.

Originally posted by acmpnsfal


I do think that its possible but only because "mainstream" Abrahamic religions are becoming more tolerant towards each other. I have seen interfaith councils (Jews, Muslims, and Christians) and what not here and there. They are coming together under the banner of believing in a god in an effort to do good and promote solidarity between their own communities. They are also trying to combat the increase in atheism and agnosticism so this can only improve. Hatred is not cool anymore, lol. Thats what turns a lot of people off about religion, even among the religious. So to keep people coming in you have to change the message.

But this is also where education comes in. I mean at least among the religious, they get stuck on superficial differences. Like, "oh look they pray on mats how silly!" but when they actually learn that the religion is teaching the same core values they get dont mind the little stuff. But as for big nations with sketchy histories like China and the US, the big problem there would be the governments, not necessarily the citizens. But im sure if it was no longer advantageous for them to have pissing contests, they would stop.

Don't forget all the random enemies around though yea? Never ever will you without devastation convince china, Russia, N Korea, Venezuela, Cuba, to lose all inhibitions and follow your lead. Just wont happen man, I promise.
Education is a must I agree. And while you're right some countries have relaxed a little when talking religious issues, but you're forgetting whole nations that have certain beliefs and religion built into them over thousands of yrs. Only the extreme trauma on all fronts of the emotion and senses will even give you a shot weakening such a huge variety of faith, culture, pride..

I really don't see how that would do anything to help humanity in the long run. I mean once society rebuilt, people would start playing the blame game all over the world, every nation would probably blame another for what happened. I mean the Jew and the Palestinian who just lost everything may dine together, but they would also create a new common enemy in their minds-back to square one. We need to change whats happening within the framework we already have.

This would change the framework on a world level and a new social level of peace thats never been experienced on earth... No one gonna blame anyone at first, maybe the few but they gotta go, now with all the new rule sets in place that have been tailored to be most for for every religion, creed etc,

Run a tight, no nonsense, but fair program for 4 or 5 generations and we will ready to socially evolve.


Basically the war would produce MkUltra style deprogramming on a global scale and much more effective overload of senses and emotions. People will be so distraught and lost that their former in-differences with religion, borders, race etc will be so much less important than rebuilding and finding some kinda normalcy. Telling you this is the only way, I've dug deep inside for this conclusion, and the only way to start figuring out a formula for success you have to ask How to achieve global peace and co=operation without risk of war? everything is so jacked up that we gotta start over anyway, much less we need that emotional effect so soften individual belief enough to slowly breed those feelings of contempt right out of a culture

I asked myself how could true global peace happen? it cannot without these circumstances, I firmly believe it, defeating the elite and each individual country that disagrees just will never happen, truly