Wanna Deny Ignorance? Deny Your Own!

The motto of this website is bandied about like a trump in a card game. Or a magical phrase that makes the poster who uses it somehow superior in intellect. Denying ignorance goes far beyond correcting someones spelling or grammar. It goes far beyond throwing some external content in a post. It goes far beyond correcting a misunderstanding, or a false statement.

Denying ignorance begins and ends with you. No one else. It begins with a willingness to learn and understand what you don’t know. It begins by recognizing your own wilful, stubborn, and sometimes arrogant, need for confirmation of your own bias. Even at the cost of gleaning a truth you might have learned from removing the blinders you have so firmly in place. Denying ignorance requires one to realize that life is full of paradoxes. It means we question our own obstinate commitment to ignore what doesn’t fit our personal world view. It means we do our best to objectively explore possibilities that aren’t comfortable or conducive to our definition of reality.

If you can’t take a moment to look objectively at the possibilities in what someone else is saying because it doesn’t fit your paradigm, then you are wilfully ignorant and subjective in your approach to investigation and learning.

We deny ignorance when we realize there is truth to be found in places and ideas we have heretofore been convinced are bereft of any such notion. Does that mean gullibility? Does that mean we have to agree with every idea that comes our way? No. It means we are willing to look beyond our own preconceived ideas and beliefs, and entertain possibilities that are foreign to our way of thinking.

We deny ignorance when we engage our critical faculties, and analyze the information presented to us without disdain and fear it will compromise the internal reality we have created for ourselves. It means we are looking to expand our present understanding of reality, and we aren’t willing to throw out a piece of the puzzle just because we can’t find a place for it to fit yet.

I leave you with something I said recently in another thread:

I'm always amazed at how reticent and reluctant we are as a community to challenge our own suppositions and beliefs. When we should be exploring and analyzing possibilities, instead, we're preparing to do battle with anything that remotely challenges what we have decided reality consists of.

I truly hope we as a species, aren't capable of interstellar travel until we expand our understanding to the point we aren't as frightened as little children every time someone or something challenges our perception of what is possible.

Wow.. here here!
New users should be forced to read this before joining ATS. In fact most ATS member needs to read this.. hopefully it gets to the front page.

Star and flag from me

reply to post by Klassified

A terrific quote from Richard Feynman (1964).

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool."

Richard Feynman

Best regards,
Z

how bout lets just not give interstellar travel to ignorants

hmmmm ive wonder if the aliens think "lets not reveal ourselves to ignorants"

Critical thinking is a difficult skill to master. The beauty of these forums is that they allow for a natural form of Hegelian Dialectic to take place. That dialectic is Thesis, Antithesis, and Resolution. The thesis generally takes place with the O.P. For example, in this thread Klassified has made an argument that functions as this threads thesis. Members will either post in support of that thesis or argue against it. Those arguing against it are supporting an antithesis. While it seems rare that any given thread ever reaches a resolution, and some do, even for those that never reach a resolution, there are members who have argued strongly in support of the thesis that wind up walking away from the argument understanding their own position better because there were those who effectively argued the antithesis, and vise versa.

In between the members who effectively argue either thesis or antithesis there are the spatterings of drive by posts, off topic posts, and plenty of ad hominem attacks and other logical fallacies. The reality is that all of us are ignorant about something and most of us ignorant about quite a lot. It is the nature of living in a body that dictates a fair amount of subjectivity. Being objective requires somehow seeing more than what the human eye can see, hearing more than what the human ear can hear, smelling more than what the human nose can detect, tasting more than what the human tongue can savor and feeling more than what the human touch can feel.

Being objective requires the skill of critical thought, patience and a willingness to be wrong.

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

As always JPZ. A very thoughtful and insightful post.

I have at times wondered if Hegel would be horrified at the synthetic perversion of his theory that exists today in Washington, D.C. Thanks for your excellent perspective.

reply to post by Klassified


Words to live by. Literally. Do that sort thing here enough and you'll start carrying it away from your keyboard and into real life. ( And I'll still be here for you )

I try to live up to that model every day. Most times I succeed, sometimes I don't.....but I always make a conscious effort. Most people these days seem to see this sort of thinking as unnecessary. "Well, the way I do and see things have gotten me this far, why change?" Why not? The world does. Shouldn't you? You think you're better than the world? Then years go by and they wonder why they're "out of loop" so to speak. They wonder why they don't seem to understand things the way they used to.

That's just what happens when go about your life with blinders on. You wake up one day and find that life has passed you by. You may have made a million dollars but you still don't understand #. ( I'm not talking about you I know you better than that ). Problem is I guess is that most people today are like that. They don't want to understand anything. Knowing is simply enough. Sounds too much like work I guess.

reply to post by Klassified

We deny ignorance when we engage our critical faculties, and analyze the information presented to us without disdain and fear it will compromise the internal reality we have created for ourselves. It means we are looking to expand our present understanding of reality, and we aren’t willing to throw out a piece of the puzzle just because we can’t find a place for it to fit yet.

Thank you, dear Klass.
I'll read through the page now. You brought tears to my eyes, Sir, so I responded without further ado.
Again, thank you.
~wild

EDIT: Now I have read through. Brightest of bliss for all of you. You've impacted my life, and for that, I am grateful.


Oh, yeah....
please see my signature. I believe it 100% percent.

SECOND EDIT: AND: I don't understand why this has to buried in Rant. It should be on the front page.



Final edit, because I left it out those other times,
STAR and FLAG!!

A lot of them come here just for a little fight throw their BS around and leave. Identify those posters as noobies some how.

reply to post by Taupin Desciple

As JPZ said above, "Critical thinking is a difficult skill to master". I'm as guilty as anyone. But I'm working on it, in life as well as cyberspace.

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

It is the nature of living in a body that dictates a fair amount of subjectivity. Being objective requires somehow seeing more than what the human eye can see, hearing more than what the human ear can hear, smelling more than what the human nose can detect, tasting more than what the human tongue can savor and feeling more than what the human touch can feel.

Being objective requires the skill of critical thought, patience and a willingness to be wrong.

Sir, I starred you previously, but this needs to be repeated...daily.
Thank you.
~wild

reply to post by wildtimes

I love that quote Wildtimes. I've been tempted to steal it from you a few times.
I appreciate the kind words and thoughts. I do hope it's a thread members can glean something useful from. And I appreciate the awesome replies that have been posted thus far.

Sometimes the term "Deny ignorance " is misused. When it is misused, it is someone trying to say that "in order for me to not consider you ignorant you have to have the same belief and knowledge as me".

Which in itself is a highly ignorant position to take.

Because you can't truly assume what an individual knows and doesn't know, and what their level of education is.

And on a board like this, you really don't know who you're talking to. For all you know, you could be talking to someone who has several Ph.D.s in science and philosophy and other disciplines, or you could be talking to someone who hasn't completed high school yet.

So really, one should never assume, and should refrain from using that term in such a manner.

reply to post by Klassified

I love that quote Wildtimes. I've been tempted to steal it from you a few times.
I appreciate the kind words and thoughts. I do hope it's a thread members can glean something useful from.

I'm sure those who are receptive will definitely glean something from it.
As for the quote, hey, let's plaster it all over every surface available!

That reminds me of a story my son told me. He said 'he' saw a stapled notice on a public wall that said "Bill Posters Will Be Prosecuted".
And someone else had responded "Bill Posters is INNOCENT".

reply to post by wildtimes

That reminds me of a story my son told me. He said 'he' saw a stapled notice on a public wall that said "Bill Posters Will Be Prosecuted". And someone else had responded "Bill Posters is INNOCENT".

Now that's funny.

I don't understand why this has to buried in Rant. It should be on the front page.

I would like to see this thread on the front page. The responses in this thread so far have been excellent, and could stand to be read by all.

reply to post by TechUnique


there are a few gone gold a long time ago could pay heed, but who am I to say

@ the OP you might admit that the writing has gone way to the creative, and not so founded on principles

reply to post by rebellender

@ the OP you might admit that the writing has gone way to the creative, and not so founded on principles

That's an interesting statement Rebellender. Expound on that. You've got my interest piqued.

reply to post by Klassified


from a thread just closed, it seems that there are a bunch of people waiting for the dollar to crash, the bomb to drop ect. and are so restless that no doom has yet happened. So in the midst they search for any scandal that qualifies as Front Page so as to bring their own spin for the glory of acceptance (word and thought hijacked from friend) but do to the crap of their OP structure or Crappy content scream Foul Ball at those that scoff, while others expose some critical thinking and a Gold Lined Poster says Malarkey and derails the thread.

ATS is pissy today is my point

reply to post by Klassified


"The enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge"
Hawking.

I propose that it is the group not the individual that perpetuates the illusion of knowledge found on this site. Like the social push that makes people believe in religion it drags people down and drives conversations into endless, repetitive and unproductive circles.

Brilliant words, everyone!
OP....jeez, I really wish I could put words together like that.....reading that was almost a challenge, lol...
(I meant that as a compliment)....*sigh*....see? I'm already in defensive mode, hoping that nothing I say offends anyone....and starts an argument. So....
Star and Flag for You.
jacygirl