LIght-arms tactics against Helicopter Gunship Warfare

Helicopter gunships are very effective weapon of war, due to its manuverability.

Against them, the conventional military doctrine for lightly armed troops without anti-aircraft weapons is to spread out and run in different directions, to avoid being shot enmass.

That is only if caught in wide open areas, which those gunships are powerful. However, in built up areas such as cities and population centres, their effectiveness is cut down several notches, due to the huge number of buildings, numerous windows to hide fighters, line of sights and street obstacles such as powerlines and towers.

Machines are dead, but the human mind is alive, and can always outwit machines any and everytime, when one pause to calm down and think, focus, without distractions of panic or fear.

There is no need to run from them. The lightly armed only needs to understand the capabilities and limitations of the choppers, and AMBUSH them.

1. Gunships are patrolling airborne crafts. They will patrol the skies and if they notice movements, espacially if enmassed, they will not give warning and will shoot first and ask later. This is their capability, which can be exploited.

And that capability is that they are GOOD demolition wrecking machines. With their fire power, espacially missles, they can turn buildings into rubble.

The lightly armed commander should make use of that capability to target buildings( empty of inhabitants) to be destroyed, to block acess roads for the enemy's vehicular traffic. Tanks and trucks will stop, and in those pauses, will be targets to be hit by hidden fighter teams.

Mark out those buildings to be destroyed and an obstacle wall can be created by rubble to block acess roads, or direct traffic into kill zones.

Play out a decoy of figher teams on the ground to attract the gunships, then when it arrives, run into those buildings to be destroyed quickly, into bunkers with tunnels dug for exit points elsewhere, and let the gunship missles do the rest.


2. Similar with the decoy teams style ambush, plant snipers and heavy weapons on rooftops within a radius of the ambush site. When the gunships go into attack mode, they will fly low, straight and level, to accurately aim at the target building.

This is their vulnerability., for during that time, they become targets for rooftop or hidden window fire teams to throw everything they got, at the military conventional style of shooting ahead to hit the moving target.

Once fired, those fire teams MUST quickly get out of the building, regardless if miss or hit, for very soon, support crafts will arrive to bomb blindly. Rapelling down with harness, gloves and ropes is the fastest way. Freedom fighters may be willing to sacrifice their own lives, but Freedom Fighter Central will NOT expend any lives when possible, for each is precious.

As for bomber jets, the only way against them is to shift the comand centres and troop concentrations around the city REGULARY. Bombers limitations are that they have to plan and co-ordinate attacks hours in advance, and often using landmarks such as towers, well known outstanding buildings for aerial guidance.

There are more tactics. I am no genius, just an ordinary guy. There are far more intelligent folks than me here and out in the world who could give even far better concepts. Furthermore, what I wrote is nothing original, but only something that had been adapted from other recent wars that involved aerial platforms.

I only share this because the days of when those in power and might can use those weapons to shed blood against innocent fellow humans are over.

Peace can only be obtain from possition of strengths, not from meekness. May those in power know that the People are not as meek as they wish them to be. Some will submit, but many more will fight back for a common human cause. Let the bloodshed end.

Seeker, you sound like you have put some time into this. I have a very serious question for you, if you can answer it, and it may save lives for others to know.

Just what exists as an option to fight a Hind-24 Gunship outside of surface to air missiles?



I never got around to watching Charlie Wilson's War but the book was one among several I've read over the years from the non-fiction shelves about the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. Prior to the arrival of the Stinger, the descriptions held fairly consistent. These flying battleships could hover and absorb up to 12mm fire while calmly shifting aim over a village and almost playfully picking off who they wanted.

Are there weak points or other tactics against a gunship so heavily armored in comparison to our Apache or Cobra where weight and nimble movement dictated far less armor?

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


The Hind's tactic was to always keep it's nose pointed at incoming fire. This protected the rotor head and the tail rotor. A tactic to down a Hind was to setup an "L" type ambush, where one group would engage the Hind in order to get it's nose pointed at them, while another group would try to take out the main and tail rotor from the side. It could work, but, it was rough on the group that first engages the Hind.

reply to post by JIMC5499
Thank you. So it's only real weaknesses to ground attack are the blades themselves and the main rotor assembly as well as the tail rotor? I can see why that wasn't a favored tactic for the ambush. it would be hell finding guys with experience to lead the decoy team.

I was just curious what the tactic would be though and I know these are in Afghan and other places where it's all the locals know. I figured someone on here would know more than my picture can show for what makes them tick or how to stop that ticking.

*ATS is better than an interactive encyclopedia at times.

The 'Krocodile' is an airborne tank. Fully amoured, even the windows, and capable of resisting rounds up to 12. 7mm rounds, but not higher type calibre.

The most commonly well known vulnerability are of 3 areas - the fuel tank below the fuselage, turbine intakes, and tail rotor assembly.

Without any SAM type and higher calibre weapons, sustained fire upon those areas and a prayer is all that the ambush team can hope for, to destroy Hinds, provided the ambush site is well planned for that narrow window of pilot flying level and low in a built up area for a distance to aim and fire.

reply to post by SeekerofTruth101


Excellent post great ideas. You see that NATO! us americans are ready for any invasion. let us show you how to wage a real insurgency. Seriously we would look like total military genius and bad asses if we implemented these tactics if any war were ever brought to our shores.

On a side note. Sometimes attack choppers just get a unlucky hit and go down armored or not. There is a story of green berets in Iraq who watched a iraqi farmer (an old man) shoot down an Apache with a vintage bolt action rifle. No joke. The green berets were stunned that the copter went down so easily. So it can happen. Get a lucky shot in and you can down a attack chopper.

Some newest type of helicopter blades are not that vournable to small arms fire. The problem with the old construction style was that when it was hit it shattered and heavy damage was taken. New methords of creating these blades employ materials that let the bullets fly clean through leaving only a small hole without shattering the whole thing. Not sure what models of choppers have those. I know one UK chopper has them. Id' suspect they'd make them for older models as well as replacement for the old blades.

I've often wondered if shooting rope into the helicopters rotors would work. Like some sort of rope shooting gun (think like those cartoon grappling hooks or the thing from Star War's Hoth scene where they fell the AT-AT's.

What about a fire hose type of weapon that shoots epoxy or something similar to gum up the rotors. Hell maybe a cannon that shoots gel at the copters would work. Why use small arms when a simple at-4 with napalm instead of a warhead would work. Just burn the chopper from the sky. Set it on fire while it's hovering. I know it's a lot of R&D away from making this a possibility but why haven't the military explored simple options like a glue missile or something. Just wondering.

Originally posted by BASSPLYR
I've often wondered if shooting rope into the helicopters rotors would work. Like some sort of rope shooting gun (think like those cartoon grappling hooks or the thing from Star War's Hoth scene where they fell the AT-AT's.

What about a fire hose type of weapon that shoots epoxy or something similar to gum up the rotors. Hell maybe a cannon that shoots gel at the copters would work. Why use small arms when a simple at-4 with napalm instead of a warhead would work. Just burn the chopper from the sky. Set it on fire while it's hovering. I know it's a lot of R&D away from making this a possibility but why haven't the military explored simple options like a glue missile or something. Just wondering.

not rope
a Bola made with thick chain and some locks




funny how the OP and others haven't mentioned that one
the afghans downed many a Russian attack helicopter this way

of course a sort of crossbow/gun to fire it would be ideal
as the afghan method is sort of suicidal

it's been demonstrated countless times that simple cheapjack solutions usually win the day

Something like a bolo would be exactly what I'm thinking.

THe only other piece of the equation would be how to lure the copter into range. Apaches can blast you from miles away. SO they can stay at a high enough altitude. I know Hinds hung out closer to the ground but whats stopping them from raining fire on you from a high enough altitude to prevent a bolo attack.

We need a shoulder fired missile with bolos instead. Incase the armor can withstand a small explosion.

The Bolo idea brings another question well in topic here and perhaps someone can answer it. My dad passed before I could get more from him.

He'd insisted that in training for his first tour in the Navy off Vietnam they showed a video of an idiot on deck with a baseball cap on, walking toward a Helicopter with it's rotors spinning. He described it showing the rotor wash taking it off his head and being drawn into the blades. Here is the interesting part I've never known if I should believe. He'd said that it showed, as the whole point of this training tape, this baseball cap destroying the rotor system and causing a major accident on deck.

Is this actually possible? Are the rotors that vulnerable to something coming between them at the rotation speeds?? I know I personally saw the operators on a Hoover Dam helicopter tour get very aggressive when I'd forgotten to take my hat off and we weren't even out of the parking lot to the stairs to it yet. I've always wondered though, and it opens all kinds of possibilities for people on the ground to get creative for hostile helicopters, I suppose.

Personally, I'd try 4 to 6 claymore mines in a circle aimed upward. Decoy the Hind over it and see what happens.

LOL this is all rediculous.

Ive played alot of bf3 and if you dont have anti-air against a good helo pilot and gunner then your screwed. Running will only make you die tired. If your fighting somone who sends in a %&*^ing cobra then your way over your head and should go back to your basement and eat some wheaties.

reply to post by Wertdagf


I would agree that IF one has the best SAM weapons against aerial gunships, that is often the best.

But what happens if one does not have that luxury? Be cowed into running away, or grovel before such machines? It may happen in video games, but That's not mankind's way.

The Vietnamese during 'Nam were the ones who pioneered the way to tactics that worked against superior weapons. That is a reality, even today, not some lame pawned video gamer's fantasy. Life is no joke, more so those facing death daily and not just some computer game one can turn off and on anytime.

No doubt that there will be cases whereby superior machines can win against mankind, but mankind's minds are alive as long as we still breathe and want to survive, not only for ourselves, but for our loved ones too. And best of all, we humans have the ability to adapt, learn from our mistakes, correct them to survive and progress, something fixed programmed robots or limitational machines can't do the same.

The enemy too, will do the same and if you dont change, it would be an act of complacency, thinking you are the smartest mind on the block and they are fools. They too, are human, and your head will be on the block instead. Evolution is the only answer, and fortunately, it can only happen in free societies, and not in robotic dogmatic ones.

Even the Taliban, long against education, tech and modernisation, are into tech today, by embracing it to fight, a clear proof of how wrong in their beliefs and principles had been, and their misleading of a people whom had been foolish to place trust in them.

The tail rotor is your primary,but if you do bring one down more will show to cover it.You'll have to assume they'll know your placements with thermals unless you are countering them.

I like the claymore idea. Can put the claymore traps up onto multiple roofs like a picket line. They are easy to conceal the hind will never know that it's hovering over a bunch of claymores aimed up. Lure said Hind over the "line" on roofs and detonate the one the hind is hovering over.

Heres my question though. How close would the hind have to be to realistically get shwacked by the claymores ball bearings? THe underside is armored. SO how low would the Hind have to be hovering. 20 feet over the claymore trap? 50 feet?

.

The answer is a .50 cal with DU rounds .

.

reply to post by PsykoOps
Most chopper blades are closed cell honeycomb cores epoxied together with a coated aluminum skin, a bullet only makes a hole, which affects performance but doesn't cause a crash. the tail rotor is critical, tail rotor shaft runs down the tail boom along the top, good spot to hit. fuel tanks wont cause an immediate crash, or explode under most circumstances and some are self sealing in case of small arms fire.on top of the chopper is the engine cowling and slightly forward of these are the hydraulic servos which are redundant systems in that if damaged or loss of hydraulic pressure allows limited manual control of the machine . the swashplate or gearbox is directly under the rotor mast and repeated rounds in this area will disable the chopper pretty quickly. the best bet is to hit the pilot, and turbines dont like bullets either, but are tougher than you think, i have seen a turbine off of an oh 58 kiowa helicopter with a frozen turkey fired into its intake at 300 miles per hour and it did not stop working, it was damaged but no engine failure occured, best bet is to hide from the helicopters.

I have never heard such bollocks in my all my life, are all of you complete idiots? Real life is not a Rambo movie or a game of call of duty, you don't ambush attack helicopters with small arms, if you do there is one result, you dead.

Attack helicopters don't have any need to get in close, they can end your life from miles away, the Hind of the 80's is not the same Hind now 30 years later, nor is the Apache or Cobra or any other modern combat chopper. The minute someone fires, the IR will go on light you all up like beacons and 10 - 30 seconds later there is nothing left but strawberry Jam

How many attack helicopters have America lost in Afghanistan of Iraq solely to small arms fire? You guys really need to wise up, war is nothing like a computer game, if you screw up, you die, and if you are taking on attack choppers with small arms you have seriously screwed up. If choppers come there is one thing to do, get under cover and hide until they leave. Fight the battles you can win, giving your life uselessly helps no on.

reply to post by PrinceDreamer


Please do not disparage against contributors to this thread. Does it make you look wise, or make you look like just another loud mouth yokel?

Anyway, thanks for your contribution and personal belief. Some who fear for oneself would share your beliefs, but many more would simply shrug and get on with what's needed to be done, come what may.