Would you resort to looting in a SHTF scenario.

I highly doubt I'd ever resort to taking an innocent person's items by force, but I'd definitely help myself to some bad guy's gear.
I'd take items from any building, including houses etc. If there are no people there then why not?

Originally posted by Sozen94
I highly doubt I'd ever resort to taking an innocent person's items by force, but I'd definitely help myself to some bad guy's gear.
I'd take items from any building, including houses etc. If there are no people there then why not?

I guess it highly depends on the scenario, and knowing what the scenario realistically is. How might I distinguish a "bad guy"? He could be the one looting a neighbor's home. I might consider I have dibs on my neighbors' stuff, especially before anyone outside the neighborhood tries to claim it.

How long do we leave things untouched before making use of them? That would depend on the situation, or what we assess the situation to be, no? My neighbor/friend might pack his family and head for the hills, but then we migh get the "all clear" sooner than we expect. They would not want to come home to an empty house three days later. If I took his stuff I might realistically be keeping it for him if and when he can return, safe from looters. Bugging out doesn't mean there is time to secure furniture, stereo, nor all your pantry supplies.

If the situation is not properly assessed, and we've had earthquakes that did severe damage but services were restored much sooner than expected. If the situation is an air raid attack there may be good reason to bug out, but then resulting damage may be minimal and our skies secured quickly.

Those who smell danger and are quick to act may find themselves jumping the gun a bit, and then become "the bad guy" in someone's eyes. There is the likelihood somebody might consider this will get worse very quickly and they better take stock of what they can forage before someone else gets there first. You can see where this can lead to.

In my expectations, and I do expect something could come about before long, it may be a financial collapse and regular services, stores, and our conveniences could be disrupted for days, weeks, or months. That is mainly what I am preparing for, a disruption in our normal order of things. Such event, for whatever reason, may put opportunists out on the prowl very quickly and things could begin to boil over when there may be little cause for it. I'm sure most people have or have close friends that have several days of rations on-hand to share. I don't expect we will be faced with a survivor situation like someone surviving being stranded and lost in a remote area and have to get by on bare wit.

Just curious, what are you expecting to have to cope with? And how quickly will you revert to animal instinct before going on the prowl? Is it your goal to gather up the loot before someone else can? How reasonable will you be in a given situation? When the question is "looting" we know it's only a matter of hours, if that, before people are on the prowl. If an area is evacuated there will be looters there before everyone has had a chance to even leave.

It seems like most in this discussion are expecting things to get really bad really quick. You guys know something I don't? Expecting an asteroid strike or something of that nature?

When the thin veneer of civilization evaporates as people get hungry; morality, codes of honor and all the other BS that mankind tries to separate themselves above the beast will be gone and all men will revert back to the primitive, tribal, eat your children, species we are.

I would loot, if people leave valuable stuff around during a life or death situation I am taking it and sharing it with my family no doubt. However I would much rather try to organize a group and find a proactive way of staying alive, I would find people and create a group where we stick up for each other and more importantly organize things like food and maintaining shelters. I think in a real SHTF scenario people should not underestimate working together, organisation with a large group is far more effective then scavenging for your family.

*edit"
I want to add that I would not steal from somebody though, I guess morally it is no better stealing from someones store but I could not be violent towards other people unless they were threatening towards me.

There are many different types of the SHTH scenarios ... none of which would cause me to loot.

The types that are of permanent or lasting duration (years) - I've already thought about and decided the best thing I could do is pack up my books (diagrams, instructions and pictures how to make a weaving loom etc.) and take them next door to some young girls in their early reproductive years. I'd use every last bit of strength helping them dig a lastingly deep water well ... and anything else I could do like giving them seeds etc. to help them to help themselves survive.

A short duration scenario (local weather disaster or what have you) ... I'd simply split what I have and share half with them and then ration myself a lot tighter.

So, I guess you could call me the opposite of a looter.

reply to post by Erongaricuaro


I believe that being able to distinguish people would be relatively simple in this kind of scenario. Sometimes you can tell if a person isn't of good character just by looking at them.

That would depend on the situation like you said, but I wouldn't be looting different houses within 3 days of something happening. I would be assessing the situation, counting the supplies and gear I have in my current environment. It would be a feces storm within the first week or so, depending on what has happened. It would be a lot safer to stay in your home at that time.

I'm not sure what to expect as anything is possible. It could be a nuclear fallout or some kind of pandemic. I would adapt to the situation and then think about what is the suitable way to act, depending on how severe the situation is. Once all of my supplies are gone I would start to go out looking for more, starting with buildings close to my location. If there are people left inside I would probably try and sort something out with them, maybe trade or group up, again depending on the situation at hand. There isn't much point trading and grouping up if the event is only going to last a few days/weeks.

I believe I would be a reasonable guy, helping people in need and all that. If someone screwed me over I'd be sure to try and get my revenge and then take their stuff.

It's kind of hard to think about what you would do in that kind of situation as it is something most of us have never experienced before. Me being 18 could make me naive and un-experienced. We would most likely be totally different people in a SHTF scenario though.

The better question is, "Will you or are you willing to organize into small groups/communities to work together to survive".

Because eventually all the "supplies" will be looted. All the game will be killed, etc.

"OH mine won't I got a gun" (so do I by the way), but eventually the smell of that cooking fire (while most aren't eating) will attract more people with more guns.... And your back to square one.

The trick to "surviving" or rebuilding some sort of functional society will be community, that can grow and raise food and livestock and eventually LIVE....not survive.

Looting abandon stores for food/water I have no real problem with. Coming after those who have prepared will get you shot,,,and at some point them shot by more people with more guns....IF YOU DON"T WORK TOGETHER

But the point of the OP is good...even those that "prepare" will only last so long before they run out, and while there are few people out there that have the means, skil, ability to survive out on their own, thats rare, and what kind of life is that????? Even if you have small children, eventually they will grow up, and seek out people of their own age as potential mates...can't really do that if you are behind walls with supplies....and then start supporting "kissin' cuzins""..........or want your kids to be ok with the whole brother/sister thing......

What always gets me about the talk on this website is people think along the lines that no more food will be created after the SHTF. And that some how, the existing food will suddenly be “not enough to feed everyone.”

Food isn’t made in some “food materializer” located in the heart of the city that will be destroyed in the SHTF situation. The cows will still be out in the fields making baby cows. Pigs will be making piglets. Deer will be having young. There will still be corn to be planted, and hay to be harvested to feed the cows in winter. All be it by human hands, instead of machine. Fruit trees will still produce fruit like they always have. The US is a net exporter of food. If food exports stop, when we will have an overabundance of food. We won’t know what to do with it. It will be piled up in big mounds rotting. The only problem will be distributing that food. The only people that will be hurting are the people in the countries that survive on our food exports.

People won’t suddenly forget how to work together to achieve desired goals. We have been working together for thousands of years through war, famine, and pestilence, to get what we need, how is this SHTF situation any different? If the farmers spread the word that they need people to help plant seed by hand, then people will come out to help, because they know that they will need to if they want to eat the rest of the year, and they know that getting the seed planted is a guarantied way of making sure they will eat. If they need help harvesting hay by hand, and stacking it, then people will come to help. There will be plenty of people with idle hands, and they will be looking for something to do. And there will be things to do.

The first thing any civilization has done after a SHTF situation is try to rebuild in place, or find a place to rebuild. How is this one going to be any different? More people may be helping put the crops out, and bring them in, instead of working in the city. But people will work together like always to rebuild things, like they always have.

If you look at the refugee situations all across the world. They have countless people that literally set there and starve. If there was any place where this idea of people turning on each other, no holds barred, would take hold, then there it is. But it doesn’t. Anyone who tries that is quickly dealt with or driven out. They may break off into different groups. But when you have very little to survive on, then fighting is the least of your concerns.

The only big lesson from history is that when the times get tough, the population as a whole will have a tendency to be very ruthless with people that cause problems. People that do things that are counterproductive to everyone else’s survival.

Yes, there will be disagreements, fractures, and fighting amongst the population, but to say that everyone will revert to “every man for himself “ mode is a bit ignorant.

yes, I would loot the OP, as his way of thinking probably would lead to a lot of goodies!!!

I'm sorry OP...

I think the question is rather irrelevant.

Person A's would mostly be dead within the first month.
Person B's wouldn't wait until they had only a week left to find a more permanent means of survival.

Originally posted by Mr Tranny
What always gets me about the talk on this website is people think along the lines that no more food will be created after the SHTF. And that some how, the existing food will suddenly be “not enough to feed everyone.”

Food isn’t made in some “food materializer” located in the heart of the city that will be destroyed in the SHTF situation. The cows will still be out in the fields making baby cows. Pigs will be making piglets. Deer will be having young. There will still be corn to be planted, and hay to be harvested to feed the cows in winter. All be it by human hands, instead of machine. Fruit trees will still produce fruit like they always have. The US is a net exporter of food. If food exports stop, when we will have an overabundance of food. We won’t know what to do with it. It will be piled up in big mounds rotting. The only problem will be distributing that food. The only people that will be hurting are the people in the countries that survive on our food exports.

I believe you are assuming that the SHTF scenario will be rather modest, with small pieces of dung hitting one of those handheld squirt bottle fans with the cloth fanblades.

WHat if radiation, excessive solar activity, huge dust clouds that circumnavigate the Earth blocking all light, etc...occur, slowly choking all natural life from the surface of the planet?

Cats, dogs, and horses were extremely expensive, women abandoned their jewels as worthless, and desperate people resorted to cannibalism—even selling human flesh in the market place. Babies were kidnapped for food, if not eaten by their own parents. Even the graves were ransacked for food (p. 79). Savagery and moral degradation were the order of the day. A famine in 1069 in England was so severe that peasants, no longer able to find dogs and horses to eat, sold themselves into slavery in hopes of being fed by the master (p. 81). In 1314, a famine in England brought such misery and suffering that bodies lined the roadsides, everything imaginable was eaten (including dogs, cats, horses, and babies), and when new felons were cast into prison, starving inmates would tear them to pieces for food (p. 82). France was plagued with devastating famines from the Middle Ages to the Revolution resulting in the death of millions. Staple fare included grass, roots, white clay, and exhumed bodies. The potato famines of Ireland in 1822 and again in 1845 resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands.

It's happened before many, many times. It WILL happen again. Anyone who thinks it won't.....well, let's just say they won't be around long. My question would be, who WOULDN'T loot? If the necessary items are available and one could survive the risk, of course they would loot.

This quote has always haunted me.

www.infoukes.com

BLACK FAMINE IN UKRAINE 1932-33

"The most terrifying sights were the little children with skeleton limbs dangling from balloon-like abdomens. Starvation had wiped every trace of youth from their faces, turning them into tortured gargoyles; only in their eyes still lingered the reminder of childhood. Everywhere we found men and women lying prone (weak from hunger), their faces and bellies bloated, their eyes utterly expressionless."

reply to post by Gridrebel


One thing you are not grasping with those reports is that those headlines were the exception, not the rule. Reports like that like pointing to isolated incidents, not the actions of the society as a whole. That is because the isolated incidents create a story with more “shock and aws”

As with all news and history through out time, the hundreds of reports of a dog biting a man is quickly forgotten. The one report of a man biting a dog is remembered for all history.

Even in the contradictions of the stories themselves point out that fact. Why would people be digging up bodies to eat if they were literally piled along the streets?

Yes, there were reports of people selling human meat in the markets, but they were quickly dealt with once the population found out what was going on. But the report of people selling human meat will live on in history without context to the story behind it.

Like in north Korea. A good portion of the population starved to death. They literally cleared the hills of grass because they ate all of it. When someone tried to loot somebody, they are often quickly killed. That means more food for the rest of them. How wide spread was reports of cannibalism? Very few and limited. Yes they did happen, but it was the rare exception, not the norm.

Like in Africa. Millions have died from the worst famine that you could imagine. Drinking piss from cows is often done. How often do they eat themselves? Not very often at all. The dead lay there and decompose, or are buried in shallow grave.

The point is hundreds of thousands of people starved to death. There were a few reported cases of cannibalism, but you were more likely to be struck by lighting than ate by someone else.

And the most important thing. All thou hundreds of thousands died, millions lived because the population stuck together and pulled through it. like we have countless times before. We are a social animal. We live as groups, not as individuals.

reply to post by Mr Tranny


When literally MILLIONS were dying from starvation, I don't think so. I have done quite a bit of research on the history of famines. We're not talking about a little drought for a few months. These are politically and/or environmentally caused famines that went on for multiple years and killed millions of people, not just one occasion of it either. I could post hundreds of stories. Kids eating tree bark and bugs, people kidnapping, killing and eating strangers off the street etc., your own examples even. Millions lived because they were lucky and the famines ended for one reason or another. Yes, looting can get you killed but so can crossing the street. If I need to do it and can do so safely, then I will. If I am wrong, then I am wrong and would obviously pay the consequences. I hope I am prepared enough that I would not have to resort to looting. I don't think many people understand the seriousness of the past famines, especially in America because we haven't had to deal with that tragedy....yet. That's why I tell all my friends and family who are not preppers to at least buy a 20# bag of rice and a 20# bag of beans. Forty pounds of food that will give you plenty of cheap meals. Throw in some hot sauce and you're good to go. I watched the movie the road the other night, pretty dismal. Also, at what point would you be looting? Is it only looting if someones around to stop you? Is looting finding stuff others left behind? Is looting finding stuff along the road or in a car or is it only if it's in a building or an obviously hidden stash you discover? Maybe the term should be stealing. Taking anything that doesn't belong to you.

reply to post by Gridrebel


You are contradicting your self again. If it was happening on a regular basis they wouldn’t have to do it in secret. Kidnapping someone isn’t a public activity. They do it in secret because they know that if other people find out about it, they will be dead.

People getting themselves worked up on all this doomsday crap will come back and bite them. They will be the one that will likely overreact if something does actually happen, and those will be the people that society at large will quickly expunge from this world.

People that go around looting, stealing and trying to take people and eat them will quickly be eliminated.

The only reason why looting and stealing was tolerated back in Katrina is because people knew people were just overreacting and that things could be replaced afterwards.

If it was truly a big SHTF event stuff like that would not be tolerated. Like other large natural disasters around the US. The reason you don’t hear about the gangs of looters after the great hurricanes that hit the US over the years is because they were shot on sight. They have done it many times before, they will do it again.

So, if you want to talk about how all you “survivalist” need to go out and loot and steal to get what you need to survive, then go right ahead. You will give everyone else some much needed target practice.

The stupidity of the idea burns!!!!!

…..EDIT……

I watched the movie the road the other night

That is your problem right there. You watched a fictitious movie dreamed up in someone’s drug twisted mind, and you tried to use it as an example of what you need to do in the real world. If a person can’t understand the inherent problem with that idea, then no one can help you.

Originally posted by Mr Tranny
reply to post by Gridrebel

 

You are contradicting your self again. If it was happening on a regular basis they wouldn’t have to do it in secret. Kidnapping someone isn’t a public activity. They do it in secret because they know that if other people find out about it, they will be dead.

People getting themselves worked up on all this doomsday crap will come back and bite them. They will be the one that will likely overreact if something does actually happen, and those will be the people that society at large will quickly expunge from this world.

People that go around looting, stealing and trying to take people and eat them will quickly be eliminated.

The only reason why looting and stealing was tolerated back in Katrina is because people knew people were just overreacting and that things could be replaced afterwards.

If it was truly a big SHTF event stuff like that would not be tolerated. Like other large natural disasters around the US. The reason you don’t hear about the gangs of looters after the great hurricanes that hit the US over the years is because they were shot on sight. They have done it many times before, they will do it again.

So, if you want to talk about how all you “survivalist” need to go out and loot and steal to get what you need to survive, then go right ahead. You will give everyone else some much needed target practice.

The stupidity of the idea burns!!!!!

…..EDIT……

I watched the movie the road the other night

That is your problem right there. You watched a fictitious movie dreamed up in someone’s drug twisted mind, and you tried to use it as an example of what you need to do in the real world. If a person can’t understand the inherent problem with that idea, then no one can help you.

edit on 5-8-2012 by Mr Tranny because: (no reason given)

I never said everyone went around looting. I said I would do it if I needed to. I'll try and find the story I read about giant hooks lowered down on busy streets fishing for men and women in broad daylight. It might be on one of my dead laptops. I don't need someone's opinion of a possible apocalypse to guide my actions. I look at the facts and history itself. Maybe you should too. Survival isn't about looting per se and I am not recommending it, it is about adapting, doing what you need to do in preserving your life. Oh, here it is:

www.mitosyfraudes.org...

Human Flesh Sold in Open Market

"Rich and poor suffered on equal terms. Finally the desperate people resorted to revolting
cannibalism. Human flesh, which was sold in the open market, was obtained in the most
horrible manner. Butchers concealed themselves behind latticed windows in the upper
stories of houses which looked out upon busy thoroughfares. Letting down ropes to which
were attached great meat hooks, these anglers for human flesh snared the unwary pedestrians,
drew their shrieking victims through the air, and then prepared and cooked the
food before presenting it for sale in the stalls on the street level."

This seven years' reversion to savagery induced by starvation had its companion period of suffering and degradation in the same country during the years 1201 and 1202. Whole quarters and villages became deserted during the famine which followed the low Nile of 1200 and 1201, according to chroniclers, who maintain that the starving populace ate human flesh habitually.

"True, the punishment meted out to those detected in the crime was death at the stake, but few criminals were caught, and the custom could be practiced with impunity by parents who subsisted on their own children." … "The very graves of Egypt were ransacked for food. The roads became death traps, while flocks of vultures and packs of hyenas and jackals mapped the march of the cannibal outlaws. Of course the piles of unburied dead bred pestilence of a virulent type."

And here's the finale of what we have learned from the past famines throughout the world:

Because man lacked the technological advances of today, he could not produce in big excess for
storing the produce for later use. They could barely save some food and grain for the next winter,
and that was all he could do. And worse yet, most of the times farmers were ransacked by their
masters, their kings, or simply by bands of bandits that found easier to assault and steal than to
till the soil and work from dawn to the setting sun for a meagre crop.

There would most likely be less looting today, at least in the US because of the sheer number of guns. Then again, it might just boil down to who has the better gun and/or better aim.

Originally posted by Mr Tranny
reply to post by Gridrebel
[The only reason why looting and stealing was tolerated back in Katrina is because people knew people were just overreacting and that things could be replaced afterwards.

And that's a piss poor excuse for looting and stealing, it wasn't even for survival. The only reason they didn't turn to cannibalism is because they didn't HAVE to. They weren't starving for months on end. Haven't you read of the Donner party in Oregon or Soccor team whose plane crashed in the Andes in 1972 or anything about famines or the history of them?

Originally posted by Gridrebel
it might just boil down to who has the better gun and/or better aim.

Your superior firepower is irrelevant when you are dead. The only thing that maters is they can kill you.

A 15 year old girl with a 22 long rifle and an open shot can take out a person with a M16 and 50 round mag. This isn’t a game where the side with the higher kill count wins. You are a single person It takes a single bullet to kill you. You don’t win because you have a sub machine gun that can kill a hundred of them for every time they kill you. You lose because you were killed by a 15 year old girl with a single shot 22LR.

You lose because you thought you and your M16 could take on a 15 year old girl with a single shot 22LR when she has home court advantage. She knows where to hide to ambush you. You have no idea where she can hide.

You may win once or twice, but you are dead by default because the law of averages will catch up, and there is no “reset button” in the real world.

Butchers concealed themselves behind latticed windows in the upper
stories of houses which looked out upon busy thoroughfares. Letting down ropes to which
were attached great meat hooks, these anglers for human flesh snared the unwary pedestrians,
drew their shrieking victims through the air,

If you believe that I have a bridge in New York to sell you too……..

There is things called urban legends. Butchers in the meat markets would make up those stories to tell the people that were thinking about buying from their competitor on the other side of the street. The one that is undercutting them. “The reason his meat is so cheap is because it’s human meat from people he kidnapped and killed” The natural response is…. “If he was doing that, he certainly would be caught…” the butcher would respond….” He drops down meat hooks at night and catches people walking along the street!”

The stories stick no mater how stupid and improbable they may be. Think about it for a second. I think a person being dragged up to the third story on a meat hook while kicking and screaming would be a pretty visible site. And what about the people that they narrowly missed. Don’t you think those people would go “Holly crap!!! Someone tried to snatch me with a meat hook from that third story window!!!! I think I should tell someone!!”

Again….. The stupidity … It burns!!!!

I would do whatever was necissary to ensure the survival of those I care about, that said I think the people I care about would probably disown me before I reached the point of canibalism or cold blooded banditry.

I would rather build communties than tare down lives though.