Who is Jesus? Son of God or God?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon

 

I see no contradiction because I am applying historical context, something I have suggested you also do twice now. You're talking about two covenants separated by a cross and condemning the latter for not being identical to the former when the former was fulfilled at the cross. And I wasn't talking about John's anointing but his nature as a human.

what you're saying does not change the meaning of the words...

When john said it, the line was from a judaic perspective... Paul took it litterally... and both cases contradict what Jesus actually said... God is "Greater" then himself... Not equal to himself...

And by the way, i didn't say he was denying his own divinity...

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon

 

I see no contradiction because I am applying historical context, something I have suggested you also do twice now. You're talking about two covenants separated by a cross and condemning the latter for not being identical to the former when the former was fulfilled at the cross. And I wasn't talking about John's anointing but his nature as a human.

what you're saying does not change the meaning of the words...

When john said it, the line was from a judaic perspective... Paul took it litterally... and both cases contradict what Jesus actually said... God is "Greater" then himself... Not equal to himself...

edit on 4-8-2012 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

No... the Father is greater than the Son while the Son has taken on human flesh. Both are divine. Both are eternal. Both are worshipped my man and angel alike.

ETA: Okay then, what do you think divine or deity implies?

The father is the source of all that is seen. Jesus was a man, he appeared to us, Jesus is what is known.
God (the father) the source is what is seeing and knowing and always present.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Sorry im not buying into the triune theory...

Divine would mean from God to me... And we all are from God...

we just don't know it for the most part...

No im not saying all are "equal" to Jesus or God, im sure theres a hierarchy... but i believe in One God, like he said... not three in one...

reply to post by Akragon


Don't apologize to me, but that's a big reason you're struggling over what Christ declared. No one is saying He is the Father. I also believe in One God, that's why I call God "Him" and not "them".

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Funny... i've always found that Christians struggle with what he said, not me... Don't you find that obvious by the state of so called "christianity"?

Differences of opinion i guess...

I have no issues understanding what he said... and he didn't say God is three in one...

and i believe you know that...

I also believe in One God, that's why I call God "Him" and not "them".

Triune means more then one... even three equals one...

reply to post by Akragon


God is the container that contains all things.
In God all things appear.
God is the seer and the knower of all that is present.

reply to post by Akragon

John 10

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

So, why cut the verses short? Let's read them again and add a couple of more.

John 10:27-30

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

30 I and my Father are one.

Jesus clearly makes reference in verse 28 that no man can pluck his sheep out of HIS own hand, then says that no man is able to be plucked from his father's hand. Last, but not least, Jesus says....

I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE.

'I' is the father.
'Eye' is the father, all seeing and all knowing and everpresent.
God is watching existence.

Without the knower of existence nothing could appear to exist.

reply to post by Deetermined

Jesus clearly makes reference in verse 28 that no man can pluck his sheep out of HIS own hand, then says that no man is able to be plucked from his father's hand. Last, but not least, Jesus says....

I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE.

This is the development of the point made by Jesus in the exchange between Jesus and the Jews at the temple for the celebration of the Feast of Dedication, where they took the opportunity to demand a straight answer from him as to who he was exactly.
He had "told them already!".
So if they ever knew, they would still know, since they would have been "in his hand" so they could not have just forgotten, but by reason, they had never understood, being spiritually blind.
The grammar of the "we are one" statement does not allow for an understanding that they are the same person, but that Jesus only does what the Father does.

For Jesus to come outright and say he was God would have hampered his teachings.

A large part of Jesus' teachings was how to become a good servant, so Jesus had to become one himself first.

Matthew 23:11-12

11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

John 13:12-17

12 So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?

13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.

14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.

15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.

16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

17 If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.

As for Bible verses pertaining to Christ dying for our sins:

Isaiah 53:4-12

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

More on Christ dying for our sins:

Hebrews 9:26-28

26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Hebrews 7:26-27

26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

What did Jesus say at the last supper?

Matthew 26:26-28

26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.

27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

I do not expect you to understand the bible, but it says what it says and i have shown you folks over and over and over.

You always seem unable to directly address a chapter or a verse that I bring up from the bible...
instead, you quote from unrelated verses, especially Pauls works and then try and draw an imaginary connection to the verses that I originally brought up.

but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.

Ah, so thats where that theology about God taking on the form of a human comes from. Ridiculous.
You discard everything else in the bible about Jesus being the servant of God and cling on to an isolated verse or two from Paul to present your case that Jesus is God.

What I find absurd is that Paul is someone who many christians themselves suspect of being a false apostle.

Incase you didn't notice i didn't quote Paul, i quoted Isaiah. Paul was the apostle to the gentiles and Paul was accepted by Peter and the rest, so you really do not have a leg to stand on. If you pay real close attention to what Paul says, it matches with the OT. Most of the time he points to the prophecies Jesus fulfilled to show the way and yes Paul also does draw from Isaiah and a few other prophets.

reply to post by Akragon

John 13:16
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

You're splitting hairs. Jesus never claimed to be greater than the Father, but Jesus never said he was not equal to the Father either. In fact he went out of his way to give parables so that the people would know he is God. In John 8 he said right out in the open and the jews tried to stone him. In Matthew 12 he says he is greater than the temple and Lord even of the Sabbath. So it appears Akragon, it is you who are not reading what is being said. Read between the lines.

John 5:37-47

37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. 38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. 39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

41 “I do not receive honor from men. 42 But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. 43 I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. 44 How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? 45 Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you—Moses, in whom you trust. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”

Moses wrote the first 5 books of the Torah. Moses wrote about God period, the Savior Yahweh. The only way he could write about Jesus was if Jesus is Yahweh. So if no one had ever seen the Father or his form, who was that who made Adam and walked with him and talked with him? Who was that standing there talking to Abraham the day Sodom and Gomorrah burned? Who was that who picked Moses up and put him in the cleft and showed him his back while he passed by? Who appeared to Joshua in Joshua ch. 5 and told him to take off his shoes because he was on holy ground (just lke he told Moses)? Who appeared to Manoah's wife (Samson's mother)? Who appeared to Gideon? Who appeared to Daniel? Who did Isaiah see on the throne of Heaven in Isaiah ch. 6? At the time Jesus said this in John 5 the only scritures were the Torah and Tenach of the Prophets, the NT hadn't been penned yet.

John 8:56-59

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”

57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”

58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Here Jesus clearly states that He was, before Abraham was born, I AM and the jews tried to stone him because they knew who I AM is. I AM is the first name God gave Moses when he first saw him as the burning bush, that name Hayah is I AM and the jews by their reaction understood him for saying he is Hayah. There is no mistaking Jesus' intent here, nor is there any mistaking the jews' intent to kill him for it.

This brings us to the Trilemma, Jesus was either:

1. a liar
2. a lunatic
3. telling the truth

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by Akragon

 

No, what you said was that

I've found most Christians tend to see what they want to regardless of what is actually said...

and I asked for examples in scripture where Paul directly contradicts Christ.

Still waiting for one.

O i c...

I guess we could start with the example i already gave...

Philippians 2:6

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

>

Equal indeed... says paul...

Well, that translation is worded a bit awkwardly, but you're reading it wrong anyway. Let's try it in the NIV version:

Who, being in very nature a God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross! (Philippians 2:6-8 NIV)

In this version, and placed into context, it is clear that Paul is NOT saying that the incarnated Christ and the Father are equal, he's saying exactly the opposite, in fact.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


Hi, J. Having some trouble with some guy around here, as I see...
Well, have you recieved my last U2U? The one in which I was explaining the body theory.
See ya,
John

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Hi, How is everything? I think I am experiencing trouble with U2U messagery system. Please check if you recieved any new U2U from me. Some unread U2U tends to be greyed out as if one has read them, while in fact they are unread.
Yours,
John.

reply to post by adjensen


While we're at it, let's look at the CJB version (Complete Jewish Bible):

Philippians 2:6-8

6 Though he was in the form of God,
he did not regard equality with God
something to be possessed by force.
7 On the contrary, he emptied himself,
in that he took the form of a slave
by becoming like human beings are.
And when he appeared as a human being,
8 he humbled himself still more
by becoming obedient even to death —
death on a stake as a criminal!